Interesting Take on Islam and Libertarianism

[Steve Gagne]

Adonis:

Is this the Judas was crucified not Jesus postulation or another postulation?

Whilst it certainly is a possibility that Judas was crucified instead (and boy would he have deserved it for his betrayal), I don't believe that the Qur'an specifies as much and therefore, I won't say that was the case at all.

The Qur'an states:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

(Qur'an 4:157-8)

Adonis --

I don't believe I have engaged in this discussion up to this point, mostly for lack of time rather than lack of interest.

Playing catchup on a backward-dated bbs like solo was bad enough. The thread here bounded forward faster than I could keep up with as well. At first I agreed with Michael, that you sounded much like a Sufi, or least out of the Donmeh. I regarded the name-calling on the part of supposedly rational people to be immature and stupid. But I have revised my understanding. I have a few observations:

1) No matter how learned you make yourself appear concerning Islam, I do not believe you are a Muslim of any stripe. Your command of American idiomatic English, in contradistinction to British or International English, leads me to believe you are an American prankster, just yanking everyone's chain. In internet parlance, a troll.

2) You yourself have been confronted with criticism after criticism of barbarism (entra alia), yet you have never actually repudiated those accusations, nor dissociated yourself from the philosophical movement within Islam that has advocated this barbaric behaviour in the present day. (If you know its name, say so, otherwise I must believe that you are ignorant of it. It has already been discussed here on this board before.) This leads me to believe you are attempting to repudiate Islam through "guilt by association".

3) You have not shown any logical basis why an Islamic -- or any theistic -- worldview would be compatible with the love of personal freedom. There IS a logical paradigm, but I have yet to see you put it forward. Considering the long Islamic tradition of the preservation of world philosophic writings and the love of rational learning, such a presentation in logical terms should have been child's play for you. Your failure to present it can be viewed as a willing ignorance as to either its substance or its necessity; you either have no knowledge of this paradigm, or you disrespect your audience so much in that they do not deserve a straight answer, or you disrespect Islam in that you can not be bothered to communicate it to anyone in rational terms.

[Libertarian Muslim]

1) No matter how learned you make yourself appear concerning Islam, I do not believe you are a Muslim of any stripe. Your command of American idiomatic English, in contradistinction to British or International English, leads me to believe you are an American prankster, just yanking everyone's chain. In internet parlance, a troll.

So, let me get this straight...

You're stating that the fact that I speak very good English and in particular that of American English, rarely using British or International English must mean that I am not a Muslim and an American Prankster/Troll.. Is that because you believe that Muslims don't know American English and can't speak it with any eloquence??

Did you ever think to ask why it is that I use American English rather than British English?

2) You yourself have been confronted with criticism after criticism of barbarism (entra alia), yet you have never actually repudiated those accusations, nor dissociated yourself from the philosophical movement within Islam that has advocated this barbaric behaviour in the present day. (If you know its name, say so, otherwise I must believe that you are ignorant of it. It has already been discussed here on this board before.) This leads me to believe you are attempting to repudiate Islam through "guilt by association".

You can claim what I believe is barbaric, but that's your opinion of what barbaric is..

You can criticize all that you wish as can anyone else here. I feel no need to defend my beliefs to you nor to anyone else, only to clarify what my understanding is of Islam which has been my intention all the while.

I have been Muslim now for 9 years and have studied quite a bit and held several positions including being a prison chaplain and an interfaith worker for an international interfaith organization. I carry excellent references from both the Islamic Council of Victoria, the peak representative body for the Muslim community in the state of Victoria, Australia as well as from the Doha International Center for Interfaith Dialogue in Qatar.

3) You have not shown any logical basis why an Islamic -- or any theistic -- worldview would be compatible with the love of personal freedom. There IS a logical paradigm, but I have yet to see you put it forward. Considering the long Islamic tradition of the preservation of world philosophic writings and the love of rational learning, such a presentation in logical terms should have been child's play for you. Your failure to present it can be viewed as a willing ignorance as to either its substance or its necessity; you either have no knowledge of this paradigm, or you disrespect your audience so much in that they do not deserve a straight answer, or you disrespect Islam in that you can not be bothered to communicate it to anyone in rational terms.

I think I've shown quite well how Islam is inherently libertarian and find myself wondering if you actually read any of the article links I posted, or the websites or even the interview I posted online from youtube?

[Steve Gagne]

You're stating that the fact that I speak very good English and in particular that of American English, rarely using British or International English must mean that I am not a Muslim and an American Prankster/Troll.. Is that because you believe that Muslims don't know American English and can't speak it with any eloquence??

Oh, stop it. The problem isn't in the FACT of your usage of American English, it's HOW you use it, like an unwelcome pop-up appearing on-screen. At times, it appears as contradictory to the persona you've been trying to project up to that point. It's not what I believe about Muslims, it's what I believe about you, personally. I do not yet trust what you've posted, here, there, or anyplace in-between.

Or would you prefer to say now, "well, you wouldn' unnerstand, steve, 'cause it's a Moozlim thang" ??

You can claim what I believe is barbaric, but that's your opinion of what barbaric is..

You can criticize all that you wish as can anyone else here. I feel no need to defend my beliefs to you nor to anyone else, only to clarify what my understanding is of Islam which has been my intention all the while.

I have been Muslim now for 9 years and have studied quite a bit and held several positions including being a prison chaplain and an interfaith worker for an international interfaith organization. I carry excellent references from both the Islamic Council of Victoria, the peak representative body for the Muslim community in the state of Victoria, Australia as well as from the Doha International Center for Interfaith Dialogue in Qatar.

OK, I consider justice systems that endorse mutilation and murder to be barbaric. I consider non-egalitarian social systems barbaric, no matter their compensatory adjustments. I consider belief systems that limit understanding and interfere with the free flow of information barbaric. I would be glad to elaborate sometime on how those judgements apply to any society (including my own).

My criticism toward you was not so much against the recognized barbarity of any particular society, because that has existed before us, and will go on after we're gone, but, for lack of a better phrase, the weakness of your personal manifesto for a libertarian Muslim heaven-on-earth. You want to exclude yourself from barbarity as much as any of us here -- what is your own coherent vision? Do you have one? In page after page after page, I've read your defensive answers, picking the best of nits against any o-ist nitpickers, but (and maybe it is just the medium of a bbs) there is a lack of coherence. You said, "only to clarify what my understanding is of Islam which has been my intention all the while" -- clarify it to whom? Not to me. This is an additional factor in my distrust toward you, which your credentials, as hard-earned as they may be, cannot assuage.

I think I've shown quite well how Islam is inherently libertarian and find myself wondering if you actually read any of the article links I posted, or the websites or even the interview I posted online from youtube?

Why do you think it took me a month to respond? It took me this long to get past what I thought was an inordinate amount of irrational attacks on you. Now, as far as "inherently libertarian", there are social practices within some Muslim societies that contradict this. If you regard these practices as expendable, and have at least some idea of how to go about it, I have not seen it posted yet. Furthermore, there is consistency, and then there is consistency. Consistency with past practices cannot be equated to consistency with purpose or principle. And sometimes, there is consistency in terminology, which can hide differences in ideas, or confuse them. This is what my last point was speaking to -- that there is a logical paradigm justifying your position, of which the advocates of logic are ignorant, and you have not made plain, choosing to hide inconsistent ideas behind consistent terminology.

But why should I have to state it for you? You're a grown man, aren't you?

[Libertarian Muslim]

Oh, stop it. The problem isn't in the FACT of your usage of American English, it's HOW you use it, like an unwelcome pop-up appearing on-screen. At times, it appears as contradictory to the persona you've been trying to project up to that point. It's not what I believe about Muslims, it's what I believe about you, personally. I do not yet trust what you've posted, here, there, or anyplace in-between.

Or would you prefer to say now, "well, you wouldn' unnerstand, steve, 'cause it's a Moozlim thang" ??

What is your problem with how I use American English? I still don't understand what your problem is..

OK, I consider justice systems that endorse mutilation and murder to be barbaric. I consider non-egalitarian social systems barbaric, no matter their compensatory adjustments. I consider belief systems that limit understanding and interfere with the free flow of information barbaric. I would be glad to elaborate sometime on how those judgements apply to any society (including my own).

My criticism toward you was not so much against the recognized barbarity of any particular society, because that has existed before us, and will go on after we're gone, but, for lack of a better phrase, the weakness of your personal manifesto for a libertarian Muslim heaven-on-earth. You want to exclude yourself from barbarity as much as any of us here -- what is your own coherent vision? Do you have one? In page after page after page, I've read your defensive answers, picking the best of nits against any o-ist nitpickers, but (and maybe it is just the medium of a bbs) there is a lack of coherence. You said, "only to clarify what my understanding is of Islam which has been my intention all the while" -- clarify it to whom? Not to me. This is an additional factor in my distrust toward you, which your credentials, as hard-earned as they may be, cannot assuage.

You're entitled to your opinions on barbarism, I disagree.. I don't think the punishments mentioned previously are barbaric if applied properly. Also, Islam doesn't prevent a free flow of information.. In fact it encourages learning about everything..

Again, I am curious, did you actually read it what I wrote and look through all the links, articles and youtube videos that I posted?

Why do you think it took me a month to respond? It took me this long to get past what I thought was an inordinate amount of irrational attacks on you. Now, as far as "inherently libertarian", there are social practices within some Muslim societies that contradict this. If you regard these practices as expendable, and have at least some idea of how to go about it, I have not seen it posted yet. Furthermore, there is consistency, and then there is consistency. Consistency with past practices cannot be equated to consistency with purpose or principle. And sometimes, there is consistency in terminology, which can hide differences in ideas, or confuse them. This is what my last point was speaking to -- that there is a logical paradigm justifying your position, of which the advocates of logic are ignorant, and you have not made plain, choosing to hide inconsistent ideas behind consistent terminology.

I'm sorry, I don't see Islam as being responsible for social practices, especially when Islam forbids those practices and the perpetrators in most case don't even understand Islam or are extremists..

[9thdoctor]

Feel free to ask anything you like..

I asked earlier (post 273) about recent Muslim miracle stories, are there any?

Well, I can appreciate that view thank you Ninth.. I've never really thought of it that way, the whole idea of genocide is contradictory to Islam and completely forbidden..

Its contradictory to Christianity too, but in practice and history there’s been plenty of it. Against Jews, Muslims, and above all, other Christians.

1) No matter how learned you make yourself appear concerning Islam, I do not believe you are a Muslim of any stripe. Your command of American idiomatic English, in contradistinction to British or International English, leads me to believe you are an American prankster, just yanking everyone's chain. In internet parlance, a troll.

MSK can probably see whether his IP address is coming from New Zealand vs. somewhere in the US. Of course, if he’s really such a motivated troll, he’d be using a workaround to make it look like he’s coming from NZ. The JFK assasination is a more interesting thing to speculate about, if conspiracies are your thing. You haven’t made a remotely convincing case for your assertion.

[Libertarian Muslim]

I asked earlier (post 273) about recent Muslim miracle stories, are there any?

Can you provide me with what your understanding of a miracle is? Sorry I think this is important to define first.. What I may consider a miracle you may not.

Its contradictory to Christianity too, but in practice and history there’s been plenty of it. Against Jews, Muslims, and above all, other Christians.

True, but then again, I don't know if not committing genocide is something anyone should be applauded for.. :-P

MSK can probably see whether his IP address is coming from New Zealand vs. somewhere in the US. Of course, if he’s really such a motivated troll, he’d be using a workaround to make it look like he’s coming from NZ. The JFK assasination is a more interesting thing to speculate about, if conspiracies are your thing. You haven’t made a remotely convincing case for your assertion.

This is hilarious, Lindsay Perigo also thought I wasn't real. So I challenged him to call me on the telephone and even meet me in Auckland and he didn't.

I don't understand how my language usage would indicate that I'm an American Prankster or troll. People assume too much.

[9thdoctor]

I asked earlier (post 273) about recent Muslim miracle stories, are there any?

Can you provide me with what your understanding of a miracle is? Sorry I think this is important to define first.. What I may consider a miracle you may not.

Wikipedia’s definition can suffice. The examples I cited earlier were Fatima and San Gennaro, two Catholic miracles. Fatima involved tens of thousands of people claiming the sun danced in the sky, though some witnesses say they saw nothing at all. San Gennaro involves a relic containing dried saint’s blood, that liquifies on certain days of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle

[Selene]

Main article: Islamic view of miracles Miracle in the Qur'an can be defined as a supernatural intervention in the life of human beings.^[6] According to this definition, Miracles are present "in a threefold sense: in sacred history, in connection with Muhammad himself and in relation to revelation."^[6] The Qur'an does not use the technical Arabic word for miracle (Muʿd̲j̲iza) literally meaning "that by means of which [the Prophet] confounds, overwhelms, his opponents". It rather uses the term 'Ayah'(literally meaning sign).^[7] The term Ayah is used in the Qur'an in the above mentioned threefold sense: it refers to the "verses" of the Qur'an (believed to be the divine speech in human language; presented by Muhammad as his chief Miracle); as well as to miracles of it and the signs(particularly those of creation).^[6][7]

In order to defend the possibility of miracles and God's omnipotence against the encroachment of the independent secondary causes, some medieval Muslim theologians such as Al-Ghazali rejected the idea of cause and effect in essence, but accepted it as something that facilitates humankind's investigation and comprehension of natural processes. They argued that the nature was composed of uniform atoms that were "re-created" at every instant by God. Thus if the soil was to fall, God would have to create and re-create the accident of heaviness for as long as the soil was to fall. For Muslim theologians, the laws of nature were only the customary sequence of apparent causes: customs of God.^[8]

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I am 100% satisfied that Adonis is who he says he is: a young Turkish-Australian convert to Islam who is interested in freedom and is now living in New Zealand.

(And a really nice guy and intelligent dude thrown in for good measure. Might even be good-looking in person, who knows? )

One of the 1,500,000,000+ Muslims in the world.

He likes discussing ideas. We agree on some stuff and disagree on some other stuff.

That seems to be OK by him.

It's certainly OK by me.

I enjoy it.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

I am 100% satisfied that Adonis is who he says he is: a young Turkish-Australian convert to Islam who is interested in freedom and is now living in New Zealand.

(And a really nice guy and intelligent dude thrown in for good measure. Might even be good-looking in person, who knows? )

One of the 1,500,000,000+ Muslims in the world.

He likes discussing ideas. We agree on some stuff and disagree on some other stuff.

That seems to be OK by him.

It's certainly OK by me.

I enjoy it.

Michael

I do too. Especially his story about the Stealth Jew who poisoned the Prophet (PBUH) so that he lived on to finish his task and died of the poison ten years later. If someone can believe that, he can even believe the Mossad was responsible for the 9/11 attack on the WTC.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Ba'al:

Out of curiosity, what about all them thar Heebrew miracles us hicks read about in that thar 'ole time religion...

James Cleveland in the lead 1954 The Caravans

Adam

Negro Spirituals beautiful music

[Libertarian Muslim]

I do too. Especially his story about the Stealth Jew who poisoned the Prophet (PBUH) so that he lived on to finish his task and died of the poison ten years later. If someone can believe that, he can even believe the Mossad was responsible for the 9/11 attack on the WTC.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yeah, just like some also believe that Moses peace be upon him split the Red Sea.. Whatever God grants in power to His messengers is His right to do.

BTW

Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 going to occur before the attacks and didn't pass it on to US investigators.

[Selene]

Adonis:

Source please.

BTW

Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 going to occur before the attacks and didn't pass it on to US investigators.

Additionally, are you alleging that they had general or specific knowledge?

Adam

DOPED

Director of Probative Evidence Department

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Source please.

BTW

Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 going to occur before the attacks and didn't pass it on to US investigators.

Additionally, are you alleging that they had general or specific knowledge?

Adam

DOPED

Director of Probative Evidence Department

There's been a few pieces of this information released so far on this..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6110095161238848541&ei=t_9oS9OYAoGswgPWot0U&q=israel+9%2F11+#

There's more information than this also available.. But I'd suggest opening another thread for it if you want to be specific.

[Selene]

Adonis:

Source please.

BTW

Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 going to occur before the attacks and didn't pass it on to US investigators.

Additionally, are you alleging that they had general or specific knowledge?

Adam

DOPED

Director of Probative Evidence Department

There's been a few pieces of this information released so far on this..

http://video.google....israel+9%2F11+#

There's more information than this also available.. But I'd suggest opening another thread for it if you want to be specific.

Good choice. I know about the sweep of the Israeli's. It does not surprise me that they as well as our own intelligence sources had general knowledge.

Hard specifics, as in method, target and date? I believe that is possible, but not probable. "...knew about 9/11..." - hell, I am about 2/3 through At Dawn We Slept about the attack on Pearl Harbor. A lot of people "...knew about Pearl Harbor..." in our own government, but they were thought of as fear mongers or a little out there or paranoid or anti-Japanese.

Interesting.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Ba'al:

Out of curiosity, what about all them thar Heebrew miracles us hicks read about in that thar 'ole time religion...

James Cleveland in the lead 1954 The Caravans

Adam

Negro Spirituals beautiful music

Well what about them? What do you expect from late Bronze Age people who do not comprehend how Nature works. A big hot wind (the Khamsin) dries out the big bog known as the Sea of Reeds or the Reed Sea (not to be confused with the Red Sea) and what do we get? Passover!

Or Moses follows dust devils through the Sinai wilderness for forty years. Very Bronze Age.

What Moses really needed was something like this:

Once the concept of natural physical law sinks in one realizes that there is only one Miracle, and that is Something Exists rather than Nothing.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 going to occur before the attacks and didn't pass it on to US investigators.

Could be. What happened to the Liberty has never been satisfactorily explained. Worse than the Pueblo.

-Brant

but what is your evidence?

[Libertarian Muslim]

Good choice. I know about the sweep of the Israeli's. It does not surprise me that they as well as our own intelligence sources had general knowledge.

Hard specifics, as in method, target and date? I believe that is possible, but not probable. "...knew about 9/11..." - hell, I am about 2/3 through At Dawn We Slept about the attack on Pearl Harbor. A lot of people "...knew about Pearl Harbor..." in our own government, but they were thought of as fear mongers or a little out there or paranoid or anti-Japanese.

Interesting.

Adam

It wasn't general knowledge, they knew the highjackers were up to things..

Let's not forget that an Israeli company had two of it's employees warned more than 2 hours before the attacks were to occur on 9/11 and that's been widely reported on.

[Libertarian Muslim]

In terms of miracles.. Well I personally haven't seen anything on the scale of the Fatima incident and other than a few personal experiences big to me but small in the grand scheme of things that I'll put down as miracles I can't say that I know too much about them in the Muslim community.. But then again, I haven't really looked sorry!

[BaalChatzaf]

In terms of miracles.. Well I personally haven't seen anything on the scale of the Fatima incident and other than a few personal experiences big to me but small in the grand scheme of things that I'll put down as miracles I can't say that I know too much about them in the Muslim community.. But then again, I haven't really looked sorry!

Neither you nor I have ever witnessed a miracle. Except the one and only miracle, to wit, there is something rather than nothing. Everything we have ever witnessed close up and first person is the result of natural processes.

People who say they witness miracles are the sort who see the image of the Virgin Mary in the bottom of their toilet bowls. Or see statues of Mary weep blood.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited February 3, 2010 by BaalChatzaf

[Selene]

Adonis:

It is going to be a long time before Islam takes significant steps I am afraid.

"Anwar denounces his sodomy trial The Malaysian opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim, has appeared in court to face charges of sodomy for the second time in a decade.

Dozens of supporters greeted Mr Anwar's arrival in court, before the case was adjourned to allow defence lawyers to gain access to prosecution evidence.

Mr Anwar denounced the court proceedings as the "machinations of a dirty, corrupt few".

He could face up to 20 years in prison if convicted.

Mr Anwar - a former deputy prime minister until his sudden sacking in 1998 - served six years after an earlier sodomy conviction, but led the opposition to election gains in 2008.

He represents a major challenge to Prime Minister Najib Razak, whose coalition has held power for more than 50 years.

'Dirty tricks'

Mr Anwar was accompanied by his wife and two daughters as he entered the courtroom. Dozens of his supporters shouted "reform, reform".

The 62-year-old former deputy premier has consistently maintained that the charges against him are a political conspiracy.

In an interview with the BBC before the trial, Mr Anwar said: "I think from the very start we'll state our position and fight it out, and expose their nasty conspiracy.

"We were committed to a reform agenda. We are committed to democratic ideals and some of us may have to pay the price.

ANALYSIS

Roger Hardy, BBC Islamic affairs analyst Anwar Ibrahim's political journey has taken him from charismatic student leader to deputy prime minister and now his country's most prominent opposition politician.

He is a formidable political campaigner because of his popular appeal and because he has succeeded in putting together a coalition that straddles Malaysia's ethnic divisions.

This could be a make-or-break moment in Mr Anwar's tempestuous career. But for the current prime minister, Najib Razzak, putting him on trial is a politically risky strategy.

"The image of the country is severely damaged by their actions, and I think they should not underestimate the strength and wisdom of the Malaysian people."

Government officials deny there is any plot against him.

The sodomy allegations have been levelled by a 24-year-old male former aide.

On Friday, the Federal Court upheld a lower court's ruling that Mr. Anwar could not have access to medical evidence held by prosecutors.

Mr Anwar's lawyer said the refusal had had "an emasculating effect in our preparation of the defence".

Rights groups have criticised the trial. Amnesty International accused the government of using "the same old dirty tricks in an attempt to remove the opposition leader from politics".

There were huge protests after Mr Anwar's first conviction for sodomy a decade ago. He was freed on appeal in 2004.

All homosexual acts are criminal in Malaysia.

The court is due to reconvene on Wednesday morning.

Story from BBC NEWS:"

Adam

[Selene]

This was in World Net Daily lifted from a paid website.

LONDON – Agents for Britain's MI5 intelligence service have discovered that Muslim doctors trained at some of Britain's leading teaching hospitals have returned to their own countries to fit surgical implants filled with explosives, according to a report from Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

Women suicide bombers recruited by al-Qaida are known to have had the explosives inserted in their breasts under techniques similar to breast enhancing surgery. The lethal explosives – usually PETN (pentaerythritol Tetrabitrate) – are inserted during the operation inside the plastic shapes. The breast is then sewn up.

Similar surgery has been performed on male suicide bombers. In their cases, the explosives are inserted in the appendix area or in a buttock. Both are parts of the body that diabetics use to inject themselves with their prescribed drugs.

(Story continues below)

The discovery of these methods was made after the London-educated Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab came close to blowing up an airliner on Christmas Day with explosives he had stuffed inside his underpants.

Keep in touch with the most important breaking news stories about critical developments around the globe with Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin, the premium, online intelligence news source edited and published by the founder of WND.

Hours after he had failed, GCHQ – Britain's worldwide eavesdropping "spy in the sky" agency – began to pick up "chatter" emanating from Pakistan and Yemen that alerted MI5 to the creation of the lethal implants.

A hand-picked team was appointed by Jonathan Evans, the head of MI5, to investigate the threat. He described it as "one that can circumvent our defense."

Top surgeons who work in the National Health Service confirmed the feasibility of the explosive implants.

In a report to Evans, one said:

"Properly inserted the implant would be virtually impossible to detect by the usual airport scanning machines. You would need to subject a suspect to a sophisticated X-ray. Given that the explosive would be inserted in a sealed plastic sachet, and would be a small amount, would make it all the more impossible to spot it with the usual body scanner."

Explosive experts at Britain's Porton Down biological and chemical warfare research center told MI5 that a sachet containing as little as five ounces of PETN when activated would blow "a considerable hole" in an airline's skin which would guarantee it would crash.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

It is going to be a long time before Islam takes significant steps I am afraid.

"Anwar denounces his sodomy trial The Malaysian opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim, has appeared in court to face charges of sodomy for the second time in a decade.

Dozens of supporters greeted Mr Anwar's arrival in court, before the case was adjourned to allow defence lawyers to gain access to prosecution evidence.

Mr Anwar denounced the court proceedings as the "machinations of a dirty, corrupt few".

He could face up to 20 years in prison if convicted.

Mr Anwar - a former deputy prime minister until his sudden sacking in 1998 - served six years after an earlier sodomy conviction, but led the opposition to election gains in 2008.

He represents a major challenge to Prime Minister Najib Razak, whose coalition has held power for more than 50 years.

'Dirty tricks'

Mr Anwar was accompanied by his wife and two daughters as he entered the courtroom. Dozens of his supporters shouted "reform, reform".

The 62-year-old former deputy premier has consistently maintained that the charges against him are a political conspiracy.

In an interview with the BBC before the trial, Mr Anwar said: "I think from the very start we'll state our position and fight it out, and expose their nasty conspiracy.

"We were committed to a reform agenda. We are committed to democratic ideals and some of us may have to pay the price.

ANALYSIS

Roger Hardy, BBC Islamic affairs analyst Anwar Ibrahim's political journey has taken him from charismatic student leader to deputy prime minister and now his country's most prominent opposition politician.

He is a formidable political campaigner because of his popular appeal and because he has succeeded in putting together a coalition that straddles Malaysia's ethnic divisions.

This could be a make-or-break moment in Mr Anwar's tempestuous career. But for the current prime minister, Najib Razzak, putting him on trial is a politically risky strategy.

"The image of the country is severely damaged by their actions, and I think they should not underestimate the strength and wisdom of the Malaysian people."

Government officials deny there is any plot against him.

The sodomy allegations have been levelled by a 24-year-old male former aide.

On Friday, the Federal Court upheld a lower court's ruling that Mr. Anwar could not have access to medical evidence held by prosecutors.

Mr Anwar's lawyer said the refusal had had "an emasculating effect in our preparation of the defence".

Rights groups have criticised the trial. Amnesty International accused the government of using "the same old dirty tricks in an attempt to remove the opposition leader from politics".

There were huge protests after Mr Anwar's first conviction for sodomy a decade ago. He was freed on appeal in 2004.

All homosexual acts are criminal in Malaysia.

The court is due to reconvene on Wednesday morning.

Story from BBC NEWS:"

Adam

He's innocent, the Malaysian government has a lot of serious issues that need to be worked out and Anwar Ibrahim is a reformer and wants to stop the stupid and downright discriminatory policies of the government. The government and power holders who are ethnic Malays don't want Chinese people from gaining more money or power in the community.

This was in World Net Daily lifted from a paid website.

LONDON – Agents for Britain's MI5 intelligence service have discovered that Muslim doctors trained at some of Britain's leading teaching hospitals have returned to their own countries to fit surgical implants filled with explosives, according to a report from Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

Women suicide bombers recruited by al-Qaida are known to have had the explosives inserted in their breasts under techniques similar to breast enhancing surgery. The lethal explosives – usually PETN (pentaerythritol Tetrabitrate) – are inserted during the operation inside the plastic shapes. The breast is then sewn up.

Similar surgery has been performed on male suicide bombers. In their cases, the explosives are inserted in the appendix area or in a buttock. Both are parts of the body that diabetics use to inject themselves with their prescribed drugs.

(Story continues below)

The discovery of these methods was made after the London-educated Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab came close to blowing up an airliner on Christmas Day with explosives he had stuffed inside his underpants.

Keep in touch with the most important breaking news stories about critical developments around the globe with Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin, the premium, online intelligence news source edited and published by the founder of WND.

Hours after he had failed, GCHQ – Britain's worldwide eavesdropping "spy in the sky" agency – began to pick up "chatter" emanating from Pakistan and Yemen that alerted MI5 to the creation of the lethal implants.

A hand-picked team was appointed by Jonathan Evans, the head of MI5, to investigate the threat. He described it as "one that can circumvent our defense."

Top surgeons who work in the National Health Service confirmed the feasibility of the explosive implants.

In a report to Evans, one said:

"Properly inserted the implant would be virtually impossible to detect by the usual airport scanning machines. You would need to subject a suspect to a sophisticated X-ray. Given that the explosive would be inserted in a sealed plastic sachet, and would be a small amount, would make it all the more impossible to spot it with the usual body scanner."

Explosive experts at Britain's Porton Down biological and chemical warfare research center told MI5 that a sachet containing as little as five ounces of PETN when activated would blow "a considerable hole" in an airline's skin which would guarantee it would crash.

The war on 'terror' can't be won through war and sophisticated body scanners will be overcome through other means, it's the nature of war.

This is a war of ideas that can't ever be won with war, the US will definitely collapse like the Soviet Union before they wipe out the extremists because for each extremist they kill, they create collateral damage which in turn creates more people who see the only means to fight against occupation of their land or to avenge their loved ones is to join the extremists..

This war will only be won through the USA stop trying to rule the Middle East, stops interfering with internal politics of other nations through covert and overt means and then returns to the principles that the Founding Fathers had in creating the nation.

If the US simply shows the world liberty and justice without trying to impose itself on the Middle East, the extremist groups will lose all credibility and they would lose any support or funding.. People will come running with arms wide open in terms of trying to build great relationships with the USA because it will be their choice and they'll see the beauty of Libertarian theory..

[Selene]

Adonis:

Unfortunately, when this country gets hit again and unfortunately it is going to be very soon, as I see it..

The probes are increasing because of the weakness that is being projected.

Muslim Chaplain Arrested for Smuggling Box Cutters into Prison

Posted: 03 Feb 2010 12:30 PM PST

Prisons continue to be breeding grounds for jihadi recruitment, just like the mosque and the madrassas. With Muslim chaplains like this, little wonder 36 Americans that converted to Islam in prison are now waging jihad in Yemen.

And what in the hell was he, or the prisoners he was going to give them to, planning to do with the box cutters? Surely, they were up to some "peaceful" purpose!

Related:

The Roots of Radical Islam in Prison

Prison Jihad? How radical Islamic charities exploit their access to the prison system.

Time for DoD to Overhaul its Muslim Chaplain Program

I do not speak for the validity of the Related links as I have not explored them yet.

When we get hit the backlash is going to be rabid.

Adam

what a waste of human effort this garbage has become

[Robert Campbell]

James Cleveland in the lead 1954 The Caravans

Great music...

But you might want to think twice before taking the words as a guide to living.

Robert Campbell