Interesting Take on Islam and Libertarianism

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Thanks for your perspective on that group.

If I remember your narrative when you joined our little lunatic asylum, I believe you converted to Islam when you were 17ish?

Is my memory close?

If so, if you are comfortable describing that "moment of clarity," as my man in Pulp Fiction explained, referring to his moment of conversion, I would appreciate it.

Once again, thanks for your take on that organization, it made no sense to me, but I am very familiar with the political and personal repression that is routine in this radical Islamic wave that is assaulting the social fabrics of Europe and the US.

I floated a statement with some folks in town to the effect that we hear a lot about the Israeli hospital that is in Haiti and about all the Christian missionary work, but I do not hear anything about Islamic countries helping the Haitians.

The reactions that I received verified the undercurrent of real anger and hate towards "the current image of a "Muslim."

I am meandering in this post.

Sorry. A day of football does that to me!

Still interested in the reversion, if their was one.

Adam

Hi,

That is correct, I did become Muslim but at the age of 16 which means that within a couple of months, I'd have been Muslim for 9 years now. What an amazing 9 years at that.

Let's see.. How did I become Muslim? I came to Islam through the example of Al-Shaheed Malik Al-Shabazz aka Malcolm X.

A man devoted to standing up for justice, a man who died trying to attain it for his people.

I was interested in learning about Islam because I saw the example of one good Muslim who did his utmost to make the world a better place. And so I spent time reading about the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him's life from various sources including non Muslim ones and I also read a translation of the Qur'an. From this, I was convinced that Muhammad pbuh was a Prophet and Messenger of God.

I think the defining moment for me was when I read the following verse in the Qur'an.

"O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do."

- (Qur'an 4:135)

It showed me that Islam considered all people equal and that justice must be done no matter what, it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, influential or not, you are just as accountable as everyone else and you have as much rights as everyone else.. Not many other systems 1400 years ago could have made such a claim, especially in Arabia.

Now referring to Haiti, there has been aid sent, in particular by Qatar. It has sent a C-17 (which is huge) filled with 50 tonnes of aid a search and rescue team and a mobile hospital. Turkey has also sent a mobile field hospital and aid. Iran has sent 30 metric tonnes of aid and there's more.

Saudi Arabia has been quite miserly though.

Adonis, that's the same as saying that Islam needs reformation. Your call that the common understanding of Islam has been perverted and Muslims need to return to the pure form practiced by the original generation of Muslims follows the common pattern of reformers: return to an idealized primitive state (primitive meaning not unsophisticated but meaning native or original state).

Perhaps the difference is that apparently you mean an ideal form of Islam by the term "Islam" whereas I mean the stuff that those billions of people who call themselves Muslims do.

Jeffrey S.

It's not the same and I don't think that you realize the damage you do when you say they are. If there's one sure way to get the Muslim world completely block themselves off from you it's by stating that Islam needs reformation because they'll think that you want to change their religion.

It's not Islam that requires reformation it is people's interpretation of it.

[Selene]

Adonis:

Very interesting. Detroit Red. I was one of the few white men who was allowed near him in the '60's in Harlem. Great man. I particularly loved his black capitalism approach.

His participation in the Hajj (Arabic: حج‎ Ḥaǧǧ), on his visit to Mecca was quite transformational for him. I liked his approach to his people despite his open racism because he preached self reliance. self actualization, etc.

He just had to get the white man as the devil crap out of his system. The Message to the Black Man by the Honorable Elijah Mohammed is a tad passe.

As to the aide to Haiti, there were over eleven (11) countries that sent real aide, like Israel. I had already found that out before I asked folks the question.

I was surprised by how there was no presentation of that fact in what I picked up on US media, but a lot of interest, interviews, etc. with the Israeli commander of the unit in Haiti.

It is another issue that the Islamic tack that you wish to have Islam take needs a whole bunch of good old American marketing. We get the assholes from CAIR and Akmahandjob appearing at my friend and client's heavily political Mosque in Queens which is exceptionally stupid. They are Persian, you know, the euphemism for Iranian in America,

Islamic public relations sucks in this country. They should hire me, lol.

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Very interesting. Detroit Red. I was one of the few white men who was allowed near him in the '60's in Harlem. Great man. I particularly loved his black capitalism approach.

His participation in the Hajj (Arabic: حج‎ Ḥaǧǧ), on his visit to Mecca was quite transformational for him. I liked his approach to his people despite his open racism because he preached self reliance. self actualization, etc.

He just had to get the white man as the devil crap out of his system. The Message to the Black Man by the Honorable Elijah Mohammed is a tad passe.

As to the aide to Haiti, there were over eleven (11) countries that sent real aide, like Israel. I had already found that out before I asked folks the question.

I was surprised by how there was no presentation of that fact in what I picked up on US media, but a lot of interest, interviews, etc. with the Israeli commander of the unit in Haiti.

It is another issue that the Islamic tack that you wish to have Islam take needs a whole bunch of good old American marketing. We get the assholes from CAIR and Akmahandjob appearing at my friend and client's heavily political Mosque in Queens which is exceptionally stupid. They are Persian, you know, the euphemism for Iranian in America,

Islamic public relations sucks in this country. They should hire me, lol.

Adam

Hi Adam,

I actually don't think that Malcolm X was racist at all in the last years of his life, he was very clear after accepting Islam proper and departing from the Nation Of Islam that he didn't subscribe to any form of racism and admitted that he was wrong previously.

I agree regarding marketing though, Muslims don't present themselves very well and a lot of the problem is the older generation, of which the majority speak English as a second language weren't born and raised in the US but came as migrants. They tend to want to hold onto power within the Muslim communities because it gives them status when the truth is that it should be the youth born and raised in the US who should be doing the marketing etc.

There are some good organizations though.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Selene]

Adonis:

Easy don't understand me too fast. lol.

He preached racism from street corners and Black Muslim Mosques in Harlem in the '60's. I heard them live within seventy (70) feet of him.

He was not a racist after the Mecca visit which is why I said that it was truly transformational for him.

By the way, it was also why he was assassinated. Trust me on this one as I was deeply involved in NY City above and below ground politics then.

Someone very close to me conducted the official investigation into his assassination.

Adam

Edited January 25, 2010 by Selene

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Easy don't understand me too fast. lol.

He preached racism from street corners and Black Muslim Mosques in Harlem in the '60's. I heard them live within seventy (70) feet of him.

He was not a racist after the Mecca visit which is why I said that it was truly transformational for him.

By the way, it was also why he was assassinated. Trust me on this one as I was deeply involved in NY City above and below ground politics then.

Someone very close to me conducted the official investigation into his assassination.

Adam

Sorry I misread what you wrote there Adam.

Yes, to be honest, I don't think that it was only the NOI that was responsible for his assassination. I think there was government involvement.

He was the greatest threat to the system when he was preaching unity based on equal rights. Before that he could be feared by white people and therefore not supported.

[Selene]

Adonis:

Easy don't understand me too fast. lol.

He preached racism from street corners and Black Muslim Mosques in Harlem in the '60's. I heard them live within seventy (70) feet of him.

He was not a racist after the Mecca visit which is why I said that it was truly transformational for him.

By the way, it was also why he was assassinated. Trust me on this one as I was deeply involved in NY City above and below ground politics then.

Someone very close to me conducted the official investigation into his assassination.

Adam

Sorry I misread what you wrote there Adam.

Yes, to be honest, I don't think that it was only the NOI that was responsible for his assassination. I think there was government involvement.

He was the greatest threat to the system when he was preaching unity based on equal rights. Before that he could be feared by white people and therefore not supported.

He was a significant problem for a lot of folks. Almost every assassination in this country compels conspiracy theories. The one that I worked hardest on and am convinced was an actual conspiracy is the JFK assassination.

If there was government involvement in the JFK assassination, the question is which government, or how many governments.

At some level, the five (5) assassinations attempts, of which four (4) were successful, of the 1960's, taken in their entirety, altered the course of the United States. JFK, Wallace, MLK, RFK and Malcom X were significant.

The infighting in the Black Muslim movement was severe.

Were you residing in Greece at the time of your conversion or reversion?

Adam

Edited January 26, 2010 by Selene

[Libertarian Muslim]

He was a significant problem for a lot of folks. Almost every assassination in this country compels conspiracy theories. The one that I worked hardest on and am convinced was an actual conspiracy is the JFK assassination.

If there was government involvement in the JFK assassination, the question is which government, or how many governments.

At some level, the five (5) assassinations attempts, of which four (4) were successful, of the 1960's, taken in their entirety, altered the course of the United States. JFK, Wallace, MLK, RFK and Malcom X were significant.

The infighting in the Black Muslim movement was severe.

Were you residing in Greece at the time of your conversion or reversion?

Adam

Evidence suggests that at the very least, the FBI and NYPD were complicit in letting him be murdered, at the worst they ordered it.

I actually have never been to Greece, I was born and raised in Australia.

[Selene]

He was a significant problem for a lot of folks. Almost every assassination in this country compels conspiracy theories. The one that I worked hardest on and am convinced was an actual conspiracy is the JFK assassination.

If there was government involvement in the JFK assassination, the question is which government, or how many governments.

At some level, the five (5) assassinations attempts, of which four (4) were successful, of the 1960's, taken in their entirety, altered the course of the United States. JFK, Wallace, MLK, RFK and Malcom X were significant.

The infighting in the Black Muslim movement was severe.

Were you residing in Greece at the time of your conversion or reversion?

Adam

Evidence suggests that at the very least, the FBI and NYPD were complicit in letting him be murdered, at the worst they ordered it.

I actually have never been to Greece, I was born and raised in Australia.

Interesting - Australia - lol

I was going to emigrate to Australia when I was about 21-22. They were going to pay for the relocation and give me a whole bunch of perks. I met some really nice Aussie women, but I had too much going on here. But it was damn tempting.

As to "Evidence suggests...", I would be very interested in a synopsis of this "evidence".

Additionally, Adonis, this was NY City in the mid 1960's we had virtual war zones. I was in Chicago for the Democratic convention. It was not pretty. Of course the FBI and the NYPD had operatives in Harlem's Black Muslims, Black Panthers, Weather Undgerground, SDS etc. they would have been violating their oath and professional responsibilities had they not been.

For heavens sake, this scumbag Ayers, Obiwan the diminished's, asshole buddy was a domestic marxist terrorist. He should have been executed.

Honestly, you can not understand how difficult 1968 was in this country. We were right on the edge of some pretty sticky shit. We could have gone real bad, real fast.

Adam

Edited January 26, 2010 by Selene

[Libertarian Muslim]

Interesting - Australia - lol

I was going to emigrate to Australia when I was about 21-22. They were going to pay for the relocation and give me a whole bunch of perks. I met some really nice Aussie women, but I had too much going on here. But it was damn tempting.

As to "Evidence suggests...", I would be very interested in a synopsis of this "evidence".

Additionally, Adonis, this was NY City in the mid 1960's we had virtual war zones. I was in Chicago for the Democratic convention. It was not pretty. Of course the FBI and the NYPD had operatives in Harlem's Black Muslims, Black Panthers, Weather Undgerground, SDS etc. they would have been violating their oath and professional responsibilities had they not been.

For heavens sake, this scumbag Ayers, Obiwan the diminished's, asshole buddy was a domestic marxist terrorist. He should have been executed.

Honestly, you can not understand how difficult 1968 was in this country. We were right on the edge of some pretty sticky shit. We could have gone real bad, real fast.

Adam

Yeah Australia is a great place, but politically it's down the tubes. I'd prefer to live in the USA. Currently I'm in New Zealand though.

In terms of evidence.. The national secretary at the time of the NOI was John Ali, who was one of the biggest outspoken critics calling for Malcolm X's blood who according to Ed Lomax was an undercover FBI Agent and at the very least has been exposed as an FBI informant. He met Malcolm X's assassins the night before his assassination which is pretty suspicious. We also know that the FBI and NYPD had infiltrated these organizations so much and it was their stated goal in COINTELPRO to create trouble and conflict and 'neutralize potential trouble makers'

COINTELPRO states:

"4. Prevent militant black nationalist groups and leaders from

gaining RESPECTABILITY, by discrediting them to three separate segments of

the community. The goal of discrediting black nationalists must be handled

tactically in three ways. You must discredit those groups and individuals

to, first, the responsible Negro community. Second, they must be

discredited to the white community, both the responsible community and to

"liberals" who have vestiges of sympathy for militant black nationalist

[sic] simply because they are Negroes. Third, these groups must be

discredited in the eyes of Negro radicals, the followers of the movement.

This last area requires entirely different tactics from the first two.

Publicity about violent tendencies and radical statements merely enhances

black nationalists to the last group; it adds "respectability" in a different

way."

They knew they couldn't discredit Malcolm X, he was loved by black and white people and was highly influential. during the time that he was a member of the racist NOI they could create him as an enemy to the majority of Americans but as he returned from the Hajj with a changed mind, directed more towards unity, justice and equal rights and being against the military industrial complex they realized the threat that he posed was huge.

So what happened?

They neutralized him whether by ordering it themselves or knowing it was going to happen and not stopping it, they had the power to stop it and are therefore responsible for it..

Also, from my understanding the FBI failed miserably at infiltrating the Weathermen Underground if I'm not mistaken?

[Selene]

Interesting - Australia - lol

I was going to emigrate to Australia when I was about 21-22. They were going to pay for the relocation and give me a whole bunch of perks. I met some really nice Aussie women, but I had too much going on here. But it was damn tempting.

As to "Evidence suggests...", I would be very interested in a synopsis of this "evidence".

Additionally, Adonis, this was NY City in the mid 1960's we had virtual war zones. I was in Chicago for the Democratic convention. It was not pretty. Of course the FBI and the NYPD had operatives in Harlem's Black Muslims, Black Panthers, Weather Undgerground, SDS etc. they would have been violating their oath and professional responsibilities had they not been.

For heavens sake, this scumbag Ayers, Obiwan the diminished's, asshole buddy was a domestic marxist terrorist. He should have been executed.

Honestly, you can not understand how difficult 1968 was in this country. We were right on the edge of some pretty sticky shit. We could have gone real bad, real fast.

Adam

Yeah Australia is a great place, but politically it's down the tubes. I'd prefer to live in the USA. Currently I'm in New Zealand though.

In terms of evidence.. The national secretary at the time of the NOI was John Ali, who was one of the biggest outspoken critics calling for Malcolm X's blood who according to Ed Lomax was an undercover FBI Agent and at the very least has been exposed as an FBI informant. He met Malcolm X's assassins the night before his assassination which is pretty suspicious. We also know that the FBI and NYPD had infiltrated these organizations so much and it was their stated goal in COINTELPRO to create trouble and conflict and 'neutralize potential trouble makers'

COINTELPRO states:

"4. Prevent militant black nationalist groups and leaders from

gaining RESPECTABILITY, by discrediting them to three separate segments of

the community. The goal of discrediting black nationalists must be handled

tactically in three ways. You must discredit those groups and individuals

to, first, the responsible Negro community. Second, they must be

discredited to the white community, both the responsible community and to

"liberals" who have vestiges of sympathy for militant black nationalist

[sic] simply because they are Negroes. Third, these groups must be

discredited in the eyes of Negro radicals, the followers of the movement.

This last area requires entirely different tactics from the first two.

Publicity about violent tendencies and radical statements merely enhances

black nationalists to the last group; it adds "respectability" in a different

way."

They knew they couldn't discredit Malcolm X, he was loved by black and white people and was highly influential. during the time that he was a member of the racist NOI they could create him as an enemy to the majority of Americans but as he returned from the Hajj with a changed mind, directed more towards unity, justice and equal rights and being against the military industrial complex they realized the threat that he posed was huge.

So what happened?

They neutralized him whether by ordering it themselves or knowing it was going to happen and not stopping it, they had the power to stop it and are therefore responsible for it..

Also, from my understanding the FBI failed miserably at infiltrating the Weathermen Underground if I'm not mistaken?

Interesting items. The person that is close to me would find the scenario you brushed out above as a distinct probability as opposed to a possibility. That scenario was within the parameters of executable operations at that time. I was not surprised that he was taken out. I was angry because I also perceived it as disastrous for the better path in this country.

Good stuff Adonis.

Adam

Edited January 26, 2010 by Selene

[Libertarian Muslim]

Interesting items. The person that is close to me would find the scenario you brushed out above as a distinct probability as opposed to a possibility. That scenario was within the parameters of executable operations at that time. I was not surprised that he was taken out. I was angry because I also perceived it as disastrous for the better path in this country.

Good stuff Adonis.

Adam

Yes, I've researched this issue for quite some time. The Shabazz family is very important to me and if it weren't for Al-Shaheed Malik Al-Shabazz, God only knows where my life would be right now.

The reason why they killed him was because he was not corruptible, he was firmly devoted to justice and wouldn't sell out for anything.. Therefore the only other option was to take his life.

[studiodekadent]

Adonis,

I just want to extend a delayed welcome to Objectivist Living.

As I am an Objectivist, I do not share your religious views, however it is good to see non-Objectivists engaging with the Objectivist community. It is also encouraging to see reform-minded Muslims, such as yourself, pointing out how some Objectivists have been methodologically collectivist in their treatment of Muslims.

I hope you find this board accomodating, even if some members of it will disagree with many of the points you make. I am an unorthodox Objectivist and I have found this board more than accomodating towards debate and dissent.

[Xray]

Adonis,

I just want to extend a delayed welcome to Objectivist Living.

As I am an Objectivist, I do not share your religious views, however it is good to see non-Objectivists engaging with the Objectivist community. It is also encouraging to see reform-minded Muslims, such as yourself, pointing out how some Objectivists have been methodologically collectivist in their treatment of Muslims.

I hope you find this board accomodating, even if some members of it will disagree with many of the points you make. I am an unorthodox Objectivist and I have found this board more than accomodating towards debate and dissent.

I wouldn't call 'reform-minded' someone like AV who advocates stoning. (!)

Edited January 29, 2010 by Xray

[Selene]

Adonis,

I just want to extend a delayed welcome to Objectivist Living.

As I am an Objectivist, I do not share your religious views, however it is good to see non-Objectivists engaging with the Objectivist community. It is also encouraging to see reform-minded Muslims, such as yourself, pointing out how some Objectivists have been methodologically collectivist in their treatment of Muslims.

I hope you find this board accomodating, even if some members of it will disagree with many of the points you make. I am an unorthodox Objectivist and I have found this board more than accomodating towards debate and dissent.

I wouldn't call 'reform-minded' someone like AV who advocates stoning. (!)

I think it was just stoning you though...

Just joking.

Adam

[Xray]

I'm surprised how little A. Vlahos has been philosphically challenged by the Objectvists here. While there has been quite a discussion on what islam says on this or that, no Randite went for AV's premises, exposing them as false.

Wouldn't a fundamentalist believer in a transcendent superior being offer an excellent opportunity for Objectivists to make their case?

What happened instead was Objectivists moving around in the 'believers world', a bit like in a maze without an exit.

Instead of confronting AV with the simple truth that the koran (like the bible and all other allegedly 'holy' scriptures) was written by fallible humans, and pointing out that this fact blows any claim of 'divine authorship' out of the water - what the koran says on this or that became more important in the discussion than the epistemological fallacy underlying the belief.

Imagine Ayn Rand could have taken part in this discussion. Imo she would have hit the roof when reading about a human individual calling himself a "slave", let alone "a slave to the Creator".

"God is the assault on every human concept and therefore [is] a direct assault on the mind", Peikoff said (who I suppose repeated Rand's words).

"The absolutism of reason and its corollary, the rejection of faith, was, and remained the philosophical issue most important to Ayn.", B. Branden wrote in her book (p. 168).

From which it follows that someone even merely speculating about there possibly being a god can be no Objectivist.

Objectivsm and faith in a god are mutually exclusive. Ayn Rand was clear as bell on that.

The lack of challenge by Objectivists here is surprising indeed. It would interest me how many here are actually atheists (?).

AV's posts illustrate to what horrors (like stoning) the illusion of so-called "objective morality" can lead.

'Objective morality' is a myth, it makes no difference whether it is postulated by islam, objectivism, or any other ideology.

No doubt Rand would have said that AV 'sacrifices' a higher value (his reason) for a lower value (faith).

But since values are subjective, to a believer, faith IS the higher value.

Therefore what Rand calls 'sacrifice' is nothing but a trade. Each trader hopes to gain a higher value for what he gives. No one engages in a trade hoping to get a lower value.

AV told me point-blank that he "will be rewarded" (in an 'afterlife'). There you have it: the 'personal gain' aspect, the self-interest underlying every so-called 'sacrifice'.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

Well, Xrazy, I don't have time to read his long posts just as I only have time to quickly skim yours. (That's why I hardly read Peter Taylor.) I see no point in arguing with or taking to task a blatant irrationalist no matter how intelligent, well read and educated. He is impressive considering his age.

--Brant

Edited January 30, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Brant Gaede]

Adonis,

I just want to extend a delayed welcome to Objectivist Living.

As I am an Objectivist, I do not share your religious views, however it is good to see non-Objectivists engaging with the Objectivist community. It is also encouraging to see reform-minded Muslims, such as yourself, pointing out how some Objectivists have been methodologically collectivist in their treatment of Muslims.

I hope you find this board accomodating, even if some members of it will disagree with many of the points you make. I am an unorthodox Objectivist and I have found this board more than accomodating towards debate and dissent.

I wouldn't call 'reform-minded' someone like AV who advocates stoning. (!)

I think it was just stoning you though...

Just joking.

Adam

I have an idea: pumice stones. That way the Muslims don't have to hurt anyone and can still enjoy their religion!

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The purpose of OL is everyone thinking for himself. Not preaching a party line.

So long as a person is sincere and civil and shows goodwill, I believe interaction with him is valuable, if only for better identification about what he thinks and believes and why.

I do know that Adonis has shown good character. That goes a long way with me.

Michael

[9thdoctor]

Objectivsm and faith in a god are mutually exclusive. Ayn Rand was clear as bell on that.

Sounds like a complement, time to check the weather report from hell, they must be experiencing a freeze.

The lack of challenge by Objectivists here is surprising indeed. It would interest me how many here are actually atheists (?).

AV was invited here to discuss his belief in Islam and how it ties to libertarianism. Not to defend his belief in god. Nevertheless, I’ve worked in little jibes about faith as such, characterizing religion as after-life insurance and answering Pascal’s wager. I don’t expect him to answer on those, but just trying to in his own mind could be sending him down another road.

I’m still interested in teasing info about Islam out of Adonis. For instance I had never heard before that some Muslims believe Muhammad was murdered by a Jew. Condescension and insults work against that purpose.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Ninth Doctor

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis,

I just want to extend a delayed welcome to Objectivist Living.

As I am an Objectivist, I do not share your religious views, however it is good to see non-Objectivists engaging with the Objectivist community. It is also encouraging to see reform-minded Muslims, such as yourself, pointing out how some Objectivists have been methodologically collectivist in their treatment of Muslims.

I hope you find this board accomodating, even if some members of it will disagree with many of the points you make. I am an unorthodox Objectivist and I have found this board more than accomodating towards debate and dissent.

Studiodekadent, thank you very much for your warm welcome. I've been most impressed with some of the manners that people here have displayed. It is quite heart warming in fact.

I’m still interested in teasing info about Islam out of Adonis. For instance I had never heard before that some Muslims believe Muhammad was murdered by a Jew. Condescension and insults work against that purpose.

Feel free to ask anything you like.. As I mentioned earlier, it is believed that the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was poisoned at Khaybar and that prevented the poison from taking effect on him until he had completed his prophetic duty.. The woman who poisoned him was indeed a Jew.. But that's pretty much inconsequential.. All can't be judged on the behavior of some..

[Selene]

Adonis and 9th:

Let's see...the Jews killed the only son of God and a Jewess killing the Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him.

And let's see, the Jewish bankers and diamond merchants control the world commerce...

seems a little thematic to me.

But hey what do I know, I'm just one of those Eyetalians who know nothing but ditch digging and crime.

Adam

[9thdoctor]

Feel free to ask anything you like.. As I mentioned earlier, it is believed that the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was poisoned at Khaybar and that prevented the poison from taking effect on him until he had completed his prophetic duty.. The woman who poisoned him was indeed a Jew.. But that's pretty much inconsequential.. All can't be judged on the behavior of some..

I appreciate the invite, but I don’t know what I don’t know, so I lurk.

You say the fact the woman was a Jew is inconsequential, I beg to differ. The fact that Jews have generally been better treated by Muslims than by Christians I chalked up to the claim that the Jews killed Jesus. To find that a Jew killed Muhammad, and the Muslims haven’t historically used this as a reason for genocide, is to their credit, in a relativistic sense.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis and 9th:

Let's see...the Jews killed the only son of God and a Jewess killing the Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him.

And let's see, the Jewish bankers and diamond merchants control the world commerce...

seems a little thematic to me.

But hey what do I know, I'm just one of those Eyetalians who know nothing but ditch digging and crime.

Adam

Well, some Jews DID want Jesus peace be upon him dead (even though in Islam we don't believe it was Jesus that was crucified) and a Jewish woman DID poison Muhammad, peace be upon him.

There's no escaping that. But, does that mean all Jews are bad?

No..

I appreciate the invite, but I don’t know what I don’t know, so I lurk.

You say the fact the woman was a Jew is inconsequential, I beg to differ. The fact that Jews have generally been better treated by Muslims than by Christians I chalked up to the claim that the Jews killed Jesus. To find that a Jew killed Muhammad, and the Muslims haven’t historically used this as a reason for genocide, is to their credit, in a relativistic sense.

Well, I can appreciate that view thank you Ninth.. I've never really thought of it that way, the whole idea of genocide is contradictory to Islam and completely forbidden..

[Selene]

Adonis:

Is this the Judas was crucified not Jesus postulation or another postulation?

There was a book I read a few decades ago called The Passover Plot, by British Biblical scholar Hugh J. Schonfield.

Schonfield's conclusions

Based on scholarly research into the social and religious culture in which Jesus was born, lived and died, into the source documents of the Gospels, and into other literature, Schonfield reached the following conclusions:

• That Jesus was a deeply religious Jewish man, probably well-versed in the teachings of the local northern sects such as the Nazarenes and Essenes.
• That growing up in Biblical Galilee he had a skeptical and somewhat rebellious relationship to the hierarchy and teachings mandated by the authorities (the Pharisees) of the Temple in Jerusalem.
• That Jewish Messianic expectation was extremely high in those times, matched to the despair caused by the Roman occupation of the land, and by their subjugation of the Jews.
• That he was in many ways both typical of his times, and yet extraordinary in his religious convictions and beliefs, in his scholarship of the Biblical literature, and in the fervency in which he lived his religion out in his daily life.
• That he was convinced of his role as the expected Messiah based on the authority of his having been descendant from King David (the royal bloodline of David), and that he consciously and methodically, to the point of being calculating, attempted to fulfill that role, being eminently well-versed in the details of what that role entailed.
• That he was convinced of the importance of his fulfilling the role perfectly (after all prophesy and expectation), and that he could not allow himself to fail, as that would undoubtedly lead to his being declared a false Messiah.
• That he was perfectly aware of the consequences of his actions all along the way, and that he directed his closest supporters, the original twelve Apostles, unknowingly to aid him in his plans.
• That he involved the least possible number of supporters in his plans ("need to know" basis), therefore very few knew of the details of his final plan, and even then only the least amount of information necessary.

The culmination of his plan was to be his death (the crucifixion), his resurrection and his reign as the true Kingly and Priestly Messiah, not in heaven but on earth— the realized King of the Jews.

Here is the Wiki site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passover_Plot

Has an MP3 Debate between Hugh Schonfield and Baptist minister Walter Martin - MP3 file which I am listening to now.

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Is this the Judas was crucified not Jesus postulation or another postulation?

Whilst it certainly is a possibility that Judas was crucified instead (and boy would he have deserved it for his betrayal), I don't believe that the Qur'an specifies as much and therefore, I won't say that was the case at all.

The Qur'an states:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

(Qur'an 4:157-8)

Edited February 1, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos