New not so "Soft" Drink

[Charles R. Anderson]

I very much look forward to the discussions. I haven't written in so long in anything that revolves around O'ism or sexuality and most anything else of substance for that matter so it may take me a bit to get things rolling smoothly as I realized a bit earlier in reading some of the posts I had put up. It'll be interesting no doubt. Yes, what I know of Adam thus far, especially that he has such a high regard and fascination for human sexuality, philosophical aspects of it and what I know of him thus far from my other readings from his posts, I do think highly of him. Not to mention he's been very kind to me rather than overly abrasive and robotic if you will when talking with some that just seem to be rattling off verbatim and what they've memorized from Rand or whatever else it is they are citing. He definitely seems to be an independent thinker. I'm so far impressed by his knowledge of sexual behavior, anatomical aspects of it, his understanding and drawing from his own firsthand experiences in this regard. I was pleasantly surprised when he mentioned kegels as there's not many men that I know of that are even aware of this exercise, although it seems there's a few others on the site who also hold sexuality in high regard and continuing and furthering their own knowledge. As we both know and Adam as well, this is not easy to find as so many are shy or view it as taboo and too uncomfortable to speak about it.

Being so open about it and discussing it, furthers your own knowledge, narrowing down your ideas, especially when it comes from the opposite sex because it gives you insight into areas you otherwise wouldn't be capable of attaining on your own through experience. By reading everyone's posts so far, it's given me a great deal of insight into each person and what may be of importance to them and I'm definitely interested in reading the links Adam may be able to provide. I always am with anticipation to get your perspective as you know, always intriguing and well thought out, wonderful foundations that continually build!!

Thanks for your comments, Angie. As you describe Adam, I would say that it should be a pleasure to get to know him better through conversations here. The Fall period is usually the busiest time of the year at the lab, so I am very pressed for time this time of year, but I will try to get back into OL a bit. What with my blog war with socialism and the Obama government, I am spread a bit thinly.

[Charles R. Anderson]

Above, there was talk about penis length and girth, points of stimulation in the vagina, and female ejaculation and lubrication, and vagina size, all of which is interesting and important. But, for me, while ejaculation is a great moment, it often suffers from being a moment. Sometimes it is almost a sad moment, because the anticipation is over and the many pleasures that preceded it are likely to end. In other words, I tend to think that a little too much emphasis is placed on cumming. Too many people think that is the primary point and making love should end when that is accomplished. Sometimes, even after coming I wish the love-making would go on. Sometimes, I am so high at that point that I simply cannot move and I just want to hold my lover. I imagine there are many individual responses at this point.

There is no doubt something I am looking to express but haven't quite gotten it organized in such a way that is presentable at this point and haven't quite put my finger on it. I'm taking in the entire paragraph and the context of what you are saying and the underlying message so to speak is quite profound and gives great insight. You are most definitely correct in that it is just a moment but what is ultimately taken from that moment, aside from the physical pleasure, is the deep emotional connection which is wholly justified and should be this way regardless. Oh, man, this is going to irk me like crazy. Hmmm...I'll have to come back to this one at some point. I've read this paragraph many times over and there's something about it that I haven't yet identified in what it is. Nothing bad or anything and maybe I'm just too damn tired at this point but this paragraph I find to be extremely intriguing.

I am an experimental scientist. I have to observe reality very carefully in my work, make hypotheses based on what I know from the past and have observed, and find ways to test those hypotheses. It is amazing what you can learn simply by careful observation. Sometimes the hypothesis is wrong and sometimes the effort to make it and to test it, teaches me new things. The whole process is one of observation, development of capabilities and skills, exploration, and enjoyment of the results. In many ways each of us should be doing the same thing with respect to our love-making. There is so much to observe, so much to try, so much to understand, and so much to enjoy. It is most unfortunate that we are not encouraged more by our society to undertake this experimental and developmental effort as a serious matter affecting our pursuit of happiness. It is most unfortunate that the centrality of love-making as an issue of high importance to our happiness is not recognized by the grant of much more freedom to discuss it and to share experiences. It would be great if there were much more open-mindedness about sex and the need to accommodate the high degree of individuality of human sexuality.

By the standards of society, those who have as much interest in it as I do, are simply perverts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

So very well said, my dear!!! You have one very very lucky wife it seems to me!!!

When I said too many people make too much of ejaculation, I forgot a cardinal rule. Namely, that it is clearly the case that not everyone is like me.

When I was a kid, I really enjoyed riding my bike around the perimeter of Rod Field and all over it in Texas. Later, I came to find that I enjoyed running long distances. When running, the first half mile was always the hardest and after about one and half or two miles, the running was shear pleasure. When I ran regularly, that shear pleasure would commonly last out to about 8 miles of hard running. Now, clearly, this is not true for everyone. We differ. For me, often long before I ejaculate, I have reached a state of euphoria in making love, which includes some aspects of that runner's high. Believe me, the feeling is great and it can last a very long while. The feeling is more than a runner's high to be clear in that there is more going on in my mind, such as the wonder of all the sensations from my nervous system, which my wife is a master at invoking. Or, the anticipation of her next move. Or, my thrill at finding that she is very, very wet or at her moans. And, much more. I really can and should only say that it in the context of the very heightened pleasure that I feel that ejaculation may be overrated. Others may not, and probably often do not, reach such levels of pleasure, so that their focus on ejaculation may be fully justified.

Sometimes, I do not ejaculate at all if my focus has been very strongly on trying to please my wife. This does not at all disappoint me in many cases. Again, my pleasure was just too great to regret. Pleasure comes in many complex forms and having a variety of forms of pleasure is rather spicy! Unfortunately, there are times when my wife is disappointed that I did not come and I have a hard time convincing her that I am perfectly happy. But, I really am. There are also times when I simply enjoy the pleasure my wife is giving me so much and I can so concentrate on it, that I also do not come. Again, I have absolutely no regrets, except concern that she is disappointed that I did not come. So, it is in this context, which is probably shared by at least a few other people, if not many, that I say that sometimes too much is made of ejaculation.

Now, I believe my wife is reasonably happy with me, but I bow before her as a lover. She is incredible. She does claim that I am an easy subject and very easy to please. There is truth in this, but still she is an incredible lover. She so enjoys torturing me with near-overloads of pleasure! I wish she had as much capability for experiencing such pleasure directly herself, but she does not. We are all different.

[CNA]

Above, there was talk about penis length and girth, points of stimulation in the vagina, and female ejaculation and lubrication, and vagina size, all of which is interesting and important. But, for me, while ejaculation is a great moment, it often suffers from being a moment. Sometimes it is almost a sad moment, because the anticipation is over and the many pleasures that preceded it are likely to end. In other words, I tend to think that a little too much emphasis is placed on cumming. Too many people think that is the primary point and making love should end when that is accomplished. Sometimes, even after coming I wish the love-making would go on. Sometimes, I am so high at that point that I simply cannot move and I just want to hold my lover. I imagine there are many individual responses at this point.

There is no doubt something I am looking to express but haven't quite gotten it organized in such a way that is presentable at this point and haven't quite put my finger on it. I'm taking in the entire paragraph and the context of what you are saying and the underlying message so to speak is quite profound and gives great insight. You are most definitely correct in that it is just a moment but what is ultimately taken from that moment, aside from the physical pleasure, is the deep emotional connection which is wholly justified and should be this way regardless. Oh, man, this is going to irk me like crazy. Hmmm...I'll have to come back to this one at some point. I've read this paragraph many times over and there's something about it that I haven't yet identified in what it is. Nothing bad or anything and maybe I'm just too damn tired at this point but this paragraph I find to be extremely intriguing.

I am an experimental scientist. I have to observe reality very carefully in my work, make hypotheses based on what I know from the past and have observed, and find ways to test those hypotheses. It is amazing what you can learn simply by careful observation. Sometimes the hypothesis is wrong and sometimes the effort to make it and to test it, teaches me new things. The whole process is one of observation, development of capabilities and skills, exploration, and enjoyment of the results. In many ways each of us should be doing the same thing with respect to our love-making. There is so much to observe, so much to try, so much to understand, and so much to enjoy. It is most unfortunate that we are not encouraged more by our society to undertake this experimental and developmental effort as a serious matter affecting our pursuit of happiness. It is most unfortunate that the centrality of love-making as an issue of high importance to our happiness is not recognized by the grant of much more freedom to discuss it and to share experiences. It would be great if there were much more open-mindedness about sex and the need to accommodate the high degree of individuality of human sexuality.

By the standards of society, those who have as much interest in it as I do, are simply perverts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

So very well said, my dear!!! You have one very very lucky wife it seems to me!!!

When I said too many people make too much of ejaculation, I forgot a cardinal rule. Namely, that it is clearly the case that not everyone is like me.

When I was a kid, I really enjoyed riding my bike around the perimeter of Rod Field and all over it in Texas. Later, I came to find that I enjoyed running long distances. When running, the first half mile was always the hardest and after about one and half or two miles, the running was shear pleasure. When I ran regularly, that shear pleasure would commonly last out to about 8 miles of hard running. Now, clearly, this is not true for everyone. We differ. For me, often long before I ejaculate, I have reached a state of euphoria in making love, which includes some aspects of that runner's high. Believe me, the feeling is great and it can last a very long while. The feeling is more than a runner's high to be clear in that there is more going on in my mind, such as the wonder of all the sensations from my nervous system, which my wife is a master at invoking. Or, the anticipation of her next move. Or, my thrill at finding that she is very, very wet or at her moans. And, much more. I really can and should only say that it in the context of the very heightened pleasure that I feel that ejaculation may be overrated. Others may not, and probably often do not, reach such levels of pleasure, so that their focus on ejaculation may be fully justified.

Sometimes, I do not ejaculate at all if my focus has been very strongly on trying to please my wife. This does not at all disappoint me in many cases. Again, my pleasure was just too great to regret. Pleasure comes in many complex forms and having a variety of forms of pleasure is rather spicy! Unfortunately, there are times when my wife is disappointed that I did not come and I have a hard time convincing her that I am perfectly happy. But, I really am. There are also times when I simply enjoy the pleasure my wife is giving me so much and I can so concentrate on it, that I also do not come. Again, I have absolutely no regrets, except concern that she is disappointed that I did not come. So, it is in this context, which is probably shared by at least a few other people, if not many, that I say that sometimes too much is made of ejaculation.

Now, I believe my wife is reasonably happy with me, but I bow before her as a lover. She is incredible. She does claim that I am an easy subject and very easy to please. There is truth in this, but still she is an incredible lover. She so enjoys torturing me with near-overloads of pleasure! I wish she had as much capability for experiencing such pleasure directly herself, but she does not. We are all different.

I can't help but have a huge smile on my face!! My, oh, my, what a phenomenal answer and I completely understand your point of view as well as your wife's point of view of her being upset that you didn't fulfill that one aspect. When it comes to a loving relationship, taking joy and happiness in fulfilling your partner's desires and making them happy is a reward in and of itself and there is no sacrifice because each person benefits in their own way. I cannot say that I haven't ever done the same as well as many others here on this site and elsewhere I am sure. Some here may frown upon this and say it is a sacrifice and the whole O'ist deal but I don't and I really couldn't care if someone screams it's so un-O'ist of you. LOL When you are in a loving relationship, their joy becomes your joy and being able to provide what your partner is desiring at that time, wanting to make him/her happy, gives rewards and payoffs to each. I cannot say that every time that I've made love with my partner that I've had an orgasm every time because I can't BUT there have been times where it is available to him if and when he needs it, despite my not being in the mood so to speak and despite my never reaching that big O during it. Having him happy and satisfied brings me happiness and that I am able to provide him with what he is desiring. But I still cannot deny that it is my goal, a goal not always achieved, but definitely my goal because that orgasm and the intensity of that orgasm....*sighing* I don't think I would even be able to describe and put into words what it's like. In learning so much that I have up to this point about sex and experimenting, the orgasms have only gotten better and 100 fold in intensity. People say, yeah, orgasm this and orgasm that but the differences between certain orgasms and the areas being stimulated are tremendous and to get the double or triple whammy such as having a clitoral orgasm, G-spot orgasm, and the above all favorite X spot orgasm and you get hit with a simultaneous triple whammy and all three areas erupting at once....OMG, just the thought mesmerizes me. Or the orgasms with double penetration are distinctly different in and of themselves but when combined, the overall sensation is far different than just a G-spot orgasm or clitoral orgasm and is far more intense. So although I do understand where you are coming from and I can't deny that this is something I am familiar with in wanting to please my partner but man, oh, man, oh, GOD, yes, I do want that orgasm and if it's a double or triple whammy....phew, that's some good stuff. LOL Thinking more about this though, I find it very interesting that there's many ways to please a man but I honestly believe that women have far more ways of achieving orgasm and how to intensify those orgasms far and above what can be done in stimulating a man. Hmmm....but then again, I know of 5 spots on a man that can produce intense orgasms. Interesting for me to think about and comparing the two and who is ahead so to speak....hehehehehe ;)

But as always, great answer and you are definitely unique in so many ways. And as I said, your wife is very very lucky to have you!! Okay, it's way past my bed time and in need of some serious sleep. More sometime tomorrow -- well, today I suppose and I possibly gave way too much info -- but regardless, the discussions have been interesting up to this point. For the sake of education and furthering my own understanding and exploration, I'm willing to talk and not so reserved.

'night!!

[anonrobt]

Above, there was talk about penis length and girth, points of stimulation in the vagina, and female ejaculation and lubrication, and vagina size, all of which is interesting and important. But, for me, while ejaculation is a great moment, it often suffers from being a moment. Sometimes it is almost a sad moment, because the anticipation is over and the many pleasures that preceded it are likely to end. In other words, I tend to think that a little too much emphasis is placed on cumming. Too many people think that is the primary point and making love should end when that is accomplished. Sometimes, even after coming I wish the love-making would go on. Sometimes, I am so high at that point that I simply cannot move and I just want to hold my lover. I imagine there are many individual responses at this point.

There is no doubt something I am looking to express but haven't quite gotten it organized in such a way that is presentable at this point and haven't quite put my finger on it. I'm taking in the entire paragraph and the context of what you are saying and the underlying message so to speak is quite profound and gives great insight. You are most definitely correct in that it is just a moment but what is ultimately taken from that moment, aside from the physical pleasure, is the deep emotional connection which is wholly justified and should be this way regardless. Oh, man, this is going to irk me like crazy. Hmmm...I'll have to come back to this one at some point. I've read this paragraph many times over and there's something about it that I haven't yet identified in what it is. Nothing bad or anything and maybe I'm just too damn tired at this point but this paragraph I find to be extremely intriguing.

I am an experimental scientist. I have to observe reality very carefully in my work, make hypotheses based on what I know from the past and have observed, and find ways to test those hypotheses. It is amazing what you can learn simply by careful observation. Sometimes the hypothesis is wrong and sometimes the effort to make it and to test it, teaches me new things. The whole process is one of observation, development of capabilities and skills, exploration, and enjoyment of the results. In many ways each of us should be doing the same thing with respect to our love-making. There is so much to observe, so much to try, so much to understand, and so much to enjoy. It is most unfortunate that we are not encouraged more by our society to undertake this experimental and developmental effort as a serious matter affecting our pursuit of happiness. It is most unfortunate that the centrality of love-making as an issue of high importance to our happiness is not recognized by the grant of much more freedom to discuss it and to share experiences. It would be great if there were much more open-mindedness about sex and the need to accommodate the high degree of individuality of human sexuality.

By the standards of society, those who have as much interest in it as I do, are simply perverts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

So very well said, my dear!!! You have one very very lucky wife it seems to me!!!

When I said too many people make too much of ejaculation, I forgot a cardinal rule. Namely, that it is clearly the case that not everyone is like me.

When I was a kid, I really enjoyed riding my bike around the perimeter of Rod Field and all over it in Texas. Later, I came to find that I enjoyed running long distances. When running, the first half mile was always the hardest and after about one and half or two miles, the running was shear pleasure. When I ran regularly, that shear pleasure would commonly last out to about 8 miles of hard running. Now, clearly, this is not true for everyone. We differ. For me, often long before I ejaculate, I have reached a state of euphoria in making love, which includes some aspects of that runner's high. Believe me, the feeling is great and it can last a very long while. The feeling is more than a runner's high to be clear in that there is more going on in my mind, such as the wonder of all the sensations from my nervous system, which my wife is a master at invoking. Or, the anticipation of her next move. Or, my thrill at finding that she is very, very wet or at her moans. And, much more. I really can and should only say that it in the context of the very heightened pleasure that I feel that ejaculation may be overrated. Others may not, and probably often do not, reach such levels of pleasure, so that their focus on ejaculation may be fully justified.

Sometimes, I do not ejaculate at all if my focus has been very strongly on trying to please my wife. This does not at all disappoint me in many cases. Again, my pleasure was just too great to regret. Pleasure comes in many complex forms and having a variety of forms of pleasure is rather spicy! Unfortunately, there are times when my wife is disappointed that I did not come and I have a hard time convincing her that I am perfectly happy. But, I really am. There are also times when I simply enjoy the pleasure my wife is giving me so much and I can so concentrate on it, that I also do not come. Again, I have absolutely no regrets, except concern that she is disappointed that I did not come. So, it is in this context, which is probably shared by at least a few other people, if not many, that I say that sometimes too much is made of ejaculation.

Now, I believe my wife is reasonably happy with me, but I bow before her as a lover. She is incredible. She does claim that I am an easy subject and very easy to please. There is truth in this, but still she is an incredible lover. She so enjoys torturing me with near-overloads of pleasure! I wish she had as much capability for experiencing such pleasure directly herself, but she does not. We are all different.

I can't help but have a huge smile on my face!! My, oh, my, what a phenomenal answer and I completely understand your point of view as well as your wife's point of view of her being upset that you didn't fulfill that one aspect. When it comes to a loving relationship, taking joy and happiness in fulfilling your partner's desires and making them happy is a reward in and of itself and there is no sacrifice because each person benefits in their own way. I cannot say that I haven't ever done the same as well as many others here on this site and elsewhere I am sure. Some here may frown upon this and say it is a sacrifice and the whole O'ist deal but I don't and I really couldn't care if someone screams it's so un-O'ist of you. LOL When you are in a loving relationship, their joy becomes your joy and being able to provide what your partner is desiring at that time, wanting to make him/her happy, gives rewards and payoffs to each. I cannot say that every time that I've made love with my partner that I've had an orgasm every time because I can't BUT there have been times where it is available to him if and when he needs it, despite my not being in the mood so to speak and despite my never reaching that big O during it. Having him happy and satisfied brings me happiness and that I am able to provide him with what he is desiring. But I still cannot deny that it is my goal, a goal not always achieved, but definitely my goal because that orgasm and the intensity of that orgasm....*sighing* I don't think I would even be able to describe and put into words what it's like. In learning so much that I have up to this point about sex and experimenting, the orgasms have only gotten better and 100 fold in intensity. People say, yeah, orgasm this and orgasm that but the differences between certain orgasms and the areas being stimulated are tremendous and to get the double or triple whammy such as having a clitoral orgasm, G-spot orgasm, and the above all favorite X spot orgasm and you get hit with a simultaneous triple whammy and all three areas erupting at once....OMG, just the thought mesmerizes me. Or the orgasms with double penetration are distinctly different in and of themselves but when combined, the overall sensation is far different than just a G-spot orgasm or clitoral orgasm and is far more intense. So although I do understand where you are coming from and I can't deny that this is something I am familiar with in wanting to please my partner but man, oh, man, oh, GOD, yes, I do want that orgasm and if it's a double or triple whammy....phew, that's some good stuff. LOL Thinking more about this though, I find it very interesting that there's many ways to please a man but I honestly believe that women have far more ways of achieving orgasm and how to intensify those orgasms far and above what can be done in stimulating a man. Hmmm....but then again, I know of 5 spots on a man that can produce intense orgasms. Interesting for me to think about and comparing the two and who is ahead so to speak....hehehehehe ;)

But as always, great answer and you are definitely unique in so many ways. And as I said, your wife is very very lucky to have you!! Okay, it's way past my bed time and in need of some serious sleep. More sometime tomorrow -- well, today I suppose and I possibly gave way too much info -- but regardless, the discussions have been interesting up to this point. For the sake of education and furthering my own understanding and exploration, I'm willing to talk and not so reserved.

'night!!

Well said, and quite true that a woman's potential in orgasmic states is far higher than a man's... the biggest problem is that so few have bothered to learn how to best pleasure the woman, how to explore all facets of her zones, and further - to utilize all of the information gleamed over the years from others' explorations, taking in context the individualization between persons... most women around here, and probably most other places, do not really know of orgasms - and as such are more like the ones who, after bearing kids and reaching past that stage in life, rather much forswear much of sex, having not found much pleasure in it, and as such having lost so much personal enjoyment in life that they could have had - yet, once they allow themselves the possibility of exploring [the few that do], discovering some of what they never knew of themselves, revitalize in such interesting ways, suddenly seeing life in manners never imagined, and it is like watching a rebirth in many ways...

[Selene]

Charles, et al:

"Unfortunately, there are times when my wife is disappointed that I did not come and I have a hard time convincing her that I am perfectly happy. But, I really am. There are also times when I simply enjoy the pleasure my wife is giving me so much and I can so concentrate on it, that I also do not come. Again, I have absolutely no regrets, except concern that she is disappointed that I did not come. So, it is in this context, which is probably shared by at least a few other people, if not many, that I say that sometimes too much is made of ejaculation."

Ah a "fellow traveler". I have also struggled with the same situation being in an almost "Nirvanic state", sans "ejaculating", yet having climaxed. My lady will "feel" that there is an "incompleteness", and it takes a lot of convincing to temper that feeling within her mind.

However, one look at the glow that I feel eventually wins the day. I believe that there is some primitive or primal "void" that is created by the lack of ejaculating in the woman's deep imprinting. However, the closeness and bonding that we achieve eventually wins out against that "primal" issue,

Excellent discussion folks.

Adam

[CNA]

I haven't forgotten about anyone here and the convo. I just may be absent for a few days. Have a lot going on over the next 5 days or so but hoping to be able to show up here and there to post. But nevertheless, do want to continue the convo and soon. Hoping to be able to find some links as well, time permitting.

I hope everyone has a great weekend!!

[CNA]

OK ...now you have me interested in tracking down one particular study that was definitive and the Dr. whose name I cannot recall!

This appears to be christian based, but is pretty accurate from my experience.

Female Ejaculation Paul

The following assumes you have already an understanding of the G-spot.

W

omen lactate, men ejaculate, or so the old saying goes. Turns out some women, maybe most women, actually do both. Reports of women experiencing a gush of fluid at orgasm go back many centuries, but it's only fairly recently that (Western) science has taken these stories seriously.

The fluid comes through the urethra, but NOT from the bladder. Many still explain away the fluid some women eject from the urethra at climax as urine resulting from momentary loss of bladder control. While this might occur in a very small number of women, it does not explain the experience shared by somewomen: the fluid doesn't look like urine, doesn't smell like urine, and it has been proven in many chemical analyses that it is not urine. These women produce a small amount of clear fluid which has only trace amounts of uric acid; this indicates the fluid comes through the urethra, but does not come from the bladder. Chemically the fluid is very similar to the fluid from the male prostate. Study has shown that the fluid comes from the "female prostate", more properly known as the paraurethralglands, and often referred to as the G-Spot. During gestation the male and female start with the same tissues, it's only after sex differentiation at about 40 days that the genitals begin to look different in the male and female fetus. The tissue which becomes the prostate in the male does not just disappear in the female, it becomes the paraurethral glands which surround the urethra. Based on postmortem dissections, we know that the amount of glandular tissue varies from woman to woman, and some women have no discernible glandular tissue in their G-spot.

In some women the paraurethral glands produce fluid when the woman is highly aroused. Because the paraurethral glands open into the urethra, the muscle contractions of orgasm force this fluid into the urethra, and out of the body, creating an ejaculation of sorts. There are those who claim all women can "learn" how to ejaculate, but biology suggests otherwise; women who don't have any glandular tissue can't produce anything to ejaculate. Other woman may produce such a small amount of fluid that it's not noticed when mixed in with the other fluids that sex produces. Small amounts of fluid might not "squirt" out, but rather drip out after orgasm, much as semen does when a man has an almost-dry climax. It's also possible that the fluid may leak out before orgasm; men have a sphincter (valve) "downstream" of the prostate that keeps fluid from leaking, but women have no such sphincter. It has also been speculated that in some women the fluid is sent "upstream" and into the bladder.

One thing I would be most interested to know is if they have done any imaging studies in regards to this -- I'm sure they have but unclear as to what kinds and how detailed the studies have been -- to find out exactly what's going on either through ultrasound, MRIs, etc., while it is actually happening. They would be able to tell where exactly it's coming from and also if the fluid is being sent up into the bladder. I noted that they have done studies and that the paraurethral glands is where it is being produced but there's still speculation as to what exactly is happening. Since they have done chemical analyses on the fluid, it seems to be a combination of this and that, some studies show where there are trace amounts of urine which would be understandable considering urine is passed through the same tube.

A few studies have shown some indication of female ejaculate in urine after orgasm, but it's not known if this is the result of a retrograde ejaculation or just the urine washing a small amount of fluid out Worried that she is urinating, a woman may find the only way to avoid ejaculating is to not orgasm. of the urethra. In a recent study done by Dr. Santamaría Cabello1, prostate-specific antigen (PSA) was found in the post orgasm urine samples of 75% of the women studied. The PSA could only come from the paraurethral glands, indicating apparent ejaculation. Most of these women did not report an ejaculation, suggesting the amount of fluid was either small, or the ejaculation went into the bladder. With only 24 participants the study is somewhat limited, but it does suggest that most women ejaculate at least a little bit.

Study is just too damn small to draw any good conclusions from and to slap a label or claim on. Wow, there's so many different variables. To claim that it does or does not originate possibly in the bladder but that in the paraurethral glands but doesn't negate the fact that they are also finding similar issues in the bladder itself post orgasm. Why don't they get a group of women not afraid to make themselves orgasm and stick them in an imaging study and take the imaging and video and analyze the hell out of it. You know, given the endocrinological issues and the different hormones being excreted, etc., and at what point these chemicals and hormones are released under certain circumstances, there's a lot of variables to go through. Given what limited reading I have done up to this point, it may very well be found that during orgasm these chemicals are being released and are being produced in the bladder rather than the actual glands themselves, unless there is an actual imaging study where they have nailed it down and know for a fact that this is where it is being produced. It doesn't seem that anything I have read has really stated without a doubt that the glands themselves is where it is being produced without a doubt BECAUSE they're still running into bladder possibilities and much speculation. Given that 75% percent of the women studied for the one doctor have the same antigen present in their urine post.....honestly, unsure of what imaging studies they have done up to this point but very curious if any of the imaging studies have been conducted while it is happening and it would more than likely cut down on a lot of wasted time, energy, and money as to it might be this or that or what have you. GAWD, inefficiency just bugs the hell out of me sometimes. LMAO If they haven't done any hardcore imaging studies, a lot of time and effort and money has probably been wasted up to this point. But at least they do have some understanding of it through lab workups and possibilities. Hmmm....interesting, nevertheless.

Lack of understanding of this phenomenon has caused some women great anguish. Worried that she is urinating, or accused of such by her husband, a woman may find the only way to avoid ejaculating is to not orgasm at all.

Ironically, growing awareness of female ejaculation has created another problem; women (or their husbands) who worry that there is something wrong with them because they don't ejaculate. Some folks have become "female ejaculation evangelists" claiming that all women can, and those who don't are missing out on the best sex they can have.

Another insane statement. What is all this social metaphysical crap and grouping shit....I'm not like her and oh, god, I'm not "normal," I don't fit into the group because they said this or that or whatever....today's standards of society just another aspect as to why so many people are miserable. I can't cum because I might get a little bit wetter because I'm so turned on....oh, god, end of the world. Makes no sense to me at all. This last bit of the female ejaculation evangelists is just another "group" of women that want to tear down and destroy other women and that they are somehow inferior to them and not worthy of the best sex they can have. Just more evidence of emotion driven, nonthinking people.

Another factor in all this is that the porn industry has gotten into female ejaculation. As with everything they do, they have distorted and enlarged reality to a ridiculous point. Pornography and borderline pornography have encouraged the idea that all woman can ejaculate. The porn industry has gotten into female ejaculation, distorting and enlarged reality to a ridiculous point. They have also greatly exaggerated the quantity of fluid that is ejected. Stories of putting out a quart or more of fluid in an hour or so are just that; stories. There's no way for the body to produce that much fluid that quickly. That said, some women do ejaculate much more than others.

Always taken with a grain of salt when it comes to this industry and what they claim or attempt to show.

Edited November 22, 2009 by CNA

[CNA]

This one looks really promising.

http://www.the-clitoris.com/f_html/female_ejaculation.htm

At least this one showed some MRI images being done. Nothing against men right now but at least in the preliminary research the man is going to get in the way and a bit more difficult to get unobstructed views so to speak and close up in an MRI study. Ultrasound would also help as well but would be much easier to get a good location if she was by herself during the imaging studies that have been done.

Edited November 22, 2009 by CNA

[Selene]

Aha - May 2009

And here is that Dr. I was thinking about.

Emmanuele Jannini at the University of L'Aquila in Italy discovered clear anatomical differences between women who claim to have vaginal orgasms - triggered by stimulation of the front vaginal wall without any simultaneous stimulation of the clitoris - and those that don't.

Six things science has revealed about the female orgasm

• 17:35 28 May 2009 by Michael Marshall
• For similar stories, visit the Love and Sex Topic Guide

This week we report on the continuing debate about female ejaculation: is it real, and if so why does it happen?

See Everything you always wanted to know about female ejaculation (but were afraid to ask)

Ejaculation is just one of the aspects of female sexuality that are being demystified by research. In particular, the female orgasm, the subject of so many myths and folk beliefs, is gradually being understood.

Following some intense field research, here are some of the key facts about the female orgasm, as revealed by modern science.

<h3 class="crosshead">The G spot is real</h3> The G spot is a small region in the vagina that, if stimulated, can produce wildly intense orgasms – or so the popular claim goes. However, for decades, strong evidence for the region's existence was harder to find than the spot itself.

However, in 2008, an Italian research team found anatomical differences between women who could have G-spot orgasms and women who couldn't; apparently solving the mystery. The researchers have since begun teaching women with G spots how to put them to use.

See Ultrasound nails location of the elusive G spot

<h3 class="crosshead">The brain switches off</h3> It's folk wisdom that people can't think straight when they have sex on their minds, but when women have an orgasm most of their brains switch off.

A brain scanning study showed that many areas of women's brains were deactivated during orgasm, including those involved in emotion. The effect was less striking in men, but that may be because male orgasms are so short they are hard to detect in a brain scan.

See Orgasms: A real turn-off for women

<h3 class="crosshead">Many women can't have orgasms</h3> According to a 1999 survey, around 43 per cent of women in the US have some sort of problem with their sex lives (Journal of the American Medical Association, vol 281, page 537).

Female sexual dysfunction (FSD) is so common that the very idea that it is a medical disorder has come under attack. If nearly half the female population has a problem, say critics, does that mean it is our society that is dysfunctional?

Even so, efforts to develop drugs to treat it are underway. The impotence drug Viagra has had mixed results in women, but there are many other avenues being explored.

See What women want

<h3 class="crosshead">Genes affect orgasm frequency</h3> According to the first genetic study of the female orgasm, up to 45 per cent of the variation in women's ability to have them could be down to genes.

Many women never have orgasms during intercourse, and some also cannot have them through masturbation. Some of this may be down to external factors like upbringing, but the study showed the genetic factor is significant.

See Genes blamed for fickle female orgasm

<h3 class="crosshead">Technology can help</h3> Perhaps the most extreme solution is the so-called "orgasmatron"; an implant inserted into the spinal cord, which stimulates the user when switched on via a remote control.

Despite an initial struggle to find subjects for clinical testing, the device is now in development.

See Push my button

<h3 class="crosshead">Some mystery remains</h3> The female orgasm is a puzzle for evolutionary biologists. It is unclear why women should have orgasms at all, and it is particularly baffling that so many women should be unable to have orgasms during penetrative sex, but able to have them by masturbation.

According to researcher Elisabeth Lloyd, that implies that female orgasms are an evolutionary accident. Like male nipples, they persist simply because there is no good reason to get rid of them.

See The case of the female orgasm

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist, either in print or online, please contact the syndication department first for permission. New Scientist does not own rights to photos, but there are a variety of licensing options available for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Selene

[CNA]

Well said, and quite true that a woman's potential in orgasmic states is far higher than a man's... the biggest problem is that so few have bothered to learn how to best pleasure the woman, how to explore all facets of her zones, and further - to utilize all of the information gleamed over the years from others' explorations, taking in context the individualization between persons... most women around here, and probably most other places, do not really know of orgasms - and as such are more like the ones who, after bearing kids and reaching past that stage in life, rather much forswear much of sex, having not found much pleasure in it, and as such having lost so much personal enjoyment in life that they could have had - yet, once they allow themselves the possibility of exploring [the few that do], discovering some of what they never knew of themselves, revitalize in such interesting ways, suddenly seeing life in manners never imagined, and it is like watching a rebirth in many ways...

I completely agree. It's truly unfortunate that society has taught women that sex is dirty, wrong, only for child bearing, and so forth. It's quite amazing that even for men, although I think a great many of them have these fantasies of this, if they watch their partner masturbate or engage in other acts. Or even worse yet, they take offense and think that something may be wrong with him and that he doesn't know how to pleasure her if she masturbates or uses other devices during intercourse to help her reach orgasm or just to increase the intensity of that orgasm and to stimulate other areas. It's very much walking on egg shells with your partner and who your partner is and whether or not they are willing and accepting of trying different things and that it in no way means they don't know what they are doing. Between a loving couple, sex should only get better instead of peaking out after the first few years and then a dramatic drop off thereafter. Even if you get two of the best lovers in the world, during the initial honeymoon phase if you will won't be able to perform at their peak so to speak because they haven't yet gotten to know each other well enough, the ins and outs, of what to do, how much pressure to use and so forth. Some like it very rough whereas others do not. But even the ones that do like it rough and they find a partner who is the same way...at first, he may very well be applying too much force onto her. Each person is very very different. Of course, the better you get to know the person, sex should only get better. But in today's society, it's the complete opposite. Their greatest sex as they say is during the time when they first met. But after time goes by, they begin to lose interest. In my world and my reality, mine is the complete opposite. Yeah, it's great in the beginning. But look out and just wait until you get well acquainted with each other and this is when the fireworks really start to take off and the sex gets much better.

It's not always easy finding the right person or a good partner, especially if they are closed down to experimentation or what you find to be erotic is something they just don't like to begin with or attempting to introduce something to them that they may have reservations with, their self-esteem, and so forth. But also all of my encounters so to speak have been with men that I have known for a while, either as friends first or have dated before it actually happens. I've never had a one night stand so my experience in this regard I cannot draw upon because there is none. One night stands have never appealed to me in the least. The best sex I've ever had is after getting to know the person, having many sexual encounters with the person, and learning from each other, learning each other's bodies, experimentation, and so forth.

As for women being ahead, I took count the other night after posting what I did and thinking about it, it seems in the knowledge that I have that woman have 6 zones; whereas, men have 4 zones that are highly pleasurable and can increase orgasm. One that I am aware of I have yet to read about. I'm sure there are perhaps others, perhaps only a few that are aware of it...who knows, but just has not yet been formally written about or studied as to why it has such a massive impact on the intensity of a man's orgasm. But then again, Adam, given he has knowledge of links, etc., may very well know where to find it. But in what I am aware of, I have yet to read about it.

[CNA]

Aha - May 2009

And here is that Dr. I was thinking about.

Emmanuele Jannini at the University of L'Aquila in Italy discovered clear anatomical differences between women who claim to have vaginal orgasms - triggered by stimulation of the front vaginal wall without any simultaneous stimulation of the clitoris - and those that don't.

Six things science has revealed about the female orgasm

• 17:35 28 May 2009 by Michael Marshall
• For similar stories, visit the Love and Sex Topic Guide

This week we report on the continuing debate about female ejaculation: is it real, and if so why does it happen?

See Everything you always wanted to know about female ejaculation (but were afraid to ask)

Ejaculation is just one of the aspects of female sexuality that are being demystified by research. In particular, the female orgasm, the subject of so many myths and folk beliefs, is gradually being understood.

Following some intense field research, here are some of the key facts about the female orgasm, as revealed by modern science.

<h3 class="crosshead">The G spot is real</h3> The G spot is a small region in the vagina that, if stimulated, can produce wildly intense orgasms – or so the popular claim goes. However, for decades, strong evidence for the region's existence was harder to find than the spot itself.

However, in 2008, an Italian research team found anatomical differences between women who could have G-spot orgasms and women who couldn't; apparently solving the mystery. The researchers have since begun teaching women with G spots how to put them to use.

See Ultrasound nails location of the elusive G spot

<h3 class="crosshead">The brain switches off</h3> It's folk wisdom that people can't think straight when they have sex on their minds, but when women have an orgasm most of their brains switch off.

A brain scanning study showed that many areas of women's brains were deactivated during orgasm, including those involved in emotion. The effect was less striking in men, but that may be because male orgasms are so short they are hard to detect in a brain scan.

See Orgasms: A real turn-off for women

<h3 class="crosshead">Many women can't have orgasms</h3> According to a 1999 survey, around 43 per cent of women in the US have some sort of problem with their sex lives (Journal of the American Medical Association, vol 281, page 537).

Female sexual dysfunction (FSD) is so common that the very idea that it is a medical disorder has come under attack. If nearly half the female population has a problem, say critics, does that mean it is our society that is dysfunctional?

Even so, efforts to develop drugs to treat it are underway. The impotence drug Viagra has had mixed results in women, but there are many other avenues being explored.

See What women want

<h3 class="crosshead">Genes affect orgasm frequency</h3> According to the first genetic study of the female orgasm, up to 45 per cent of the variation in women's ability to have them could be down to genes.

Many women never have orgasms during intercourse, and some also cannot have them through masturbation. Some of this may be down to external factors like upbringing, but the study showed the genetic factor is significant.

See Genes blamed for fickle female orgasm

<h3 class="crosshead">Technology can help</h3> Perhaps the most extreme solution is the so-called "orgasmatron"; an implant inserted into the spinal cord, which stimulates the user when switched on via a remote control.

Despite an initial struggle to find subjects for clinical testing, the device is now in development.

See Push my button

<h3 class="crosshead">Some mystery remains</h3> The female orgasm is a puzzle for evolutionary biologists. It is unclear why women should have orgasms at all, and it is particularly baffling that so many women should be unable to have orgasms during penetrative sex, but able to have them by masturbation.

According to researcher Elisabeth Lloyd, that implies that female orgasms are an evolutionary accident. Like male nipples, they persist simply because there is no good reason to get rid of them.

See The case of the female orgasm

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist, either in print or online, please contact the syndication department first for permission. New Scientist does not own rights to photos, but there are a variety of licensing options available for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to.

OMG, the insanity of it all. I'm astonished but not surprised one bit. Oi I feel like I'm on another planet right now and having a hard time seeing what some of these people are attempting to claim. Jesus...these poor people. Our society has taught WOMEN that sex is dirty, wrong, gross, only for reproductive purposes and so forth and that we are NOT to enjoy it in the least bit. THE WHOLE MIND/BODY issue here is that they need to get it through their thick heads that psychologically and our convictions have massive effects on how our bodies function and reactions to outside stimuli. Oh, man, I don't want to go too much into my own personal life and at what point my convictions drastically changed and how my health was overall affected by a fucked up belief system....what they were trying to teach me as being the good but always resisted took a massive toll on my body and health. I find it interesting that what once stressed me out based on my conviction at that time increased the fight or flight response and adrenaline, increase of TSH, etc., and unfortunately having a continued increase of these hormones in my body over an extended period of time took a massive toll on my body. BUT now that my convictions have changed and what once stressed me out has no impact whatsoever healthwise on me. It's called these outside stimuli that once upset me and that I was to protect it because I was told it was right has now turned into indifference. This indifference does absolute wonders in how you view it, how you allow it to affect you.

There's definitely a lot up above to take into account and will be going through it...no doubt.

[Selene]

Angie:

I actually got lucky, I was looking at that chart with the different percentages of prostate/urine ejaculate and I noticed the study underneath it, which led me to their study which lead me to that last post which I have to take a long look at also.

Looks like a treasure trove to me.

I am as surprised as you are by the convoluted psycho sexual pretzel bending that this culture in particular puts women through. One of the worst fictions that is imparted is that the man is responsible to bring a woman to the BIG O.

Not only does it make everything completely stressed, but it leads to failure, guilt and flat out self suppressed rage and depression. Throw in a dash of good old mysticism based on the mind body dichotomy and you have a culture of really unhappy folks.

Adam

[CNA]

A brain scanning study showed that many areas of women's brains were deactivated during orgasm, including those involved in emotion. The effect was less striking in men, but that may be because male orgasms are so short they are hard to detect in a brain scan.

Damn, that must mean I'm comatose perhaps during it. LMAO This just struck me as too far out there to even put much validity into it. That MANY areas are deactivated during orgasm....interesting.

I'll have to read each link provided. But as for the study that a lot of women report not being able to reach the big O doesn't surprise me at all. Hell, if it is pounded into you day in and day out and you are taught as you are growing up that women are not to enjoy sex and if that women have many partners that must mean you're a slut, etc., etc., etc., they wonder why women aren't responsive to sex or have problems reaching the big O, let alone that they aren't familiar enough with their own bodies. Let alone that, the responses I get when I ask a woman, do you masturbate and their first response to me is NO. I just have to laugh at this response of no. They're not being honest with me nor with themselves. It's truly unfortunate.

[CNA]

Angie:

I actually got lucky, I was looking at that chart with the different percentages of prostate/urine ejaculate and I noticed the study underneath it, which led me to their study which lead me to that last post which I have to take a long look at also.

Looks like a treasure trove to me.

I am as surprised as you are by the convoluted psycho sexual pretzel bending that this culture in particular puts women through. One of the worst fictions that is imparted is that the man is responsible to bring a woman to the BIG O.

Not only does it make everything completely stressed, but it leads to failure, guilt and flat out self suppressed rage and depression. Throw in a dash of good old mysticism based on the mind body dichotomy and you have a culture of really unhappy folks.

Adam

OMG, thank you for this post. I'm talking to a living breathing life loving person. One that is not walking around with a distorted face and wreaks of death and destruction.

[Charles R. Anderson]

Above, there was talk about penis length and girth, points of stimulation in the vagina, and female ejaculation and lubrication, and vagina size, all of which is interesting and important. But, for me, while ejaculation is a great moment, it often suffers from being a moment. Sometimes it is almost a sad moment, because the anticipation is over and the many pleasures that preceded it are likely to end. In other words, I tend to think that a little too much emphasis is placed on cumming. Too many people think that is the primary point and making love should end when that is accomplished. Sometimes, even after coming I wish the love-making would go on. Sometimes, I am so high at that point that I simply cannot move and I just want to hold my lover. I imagine there are many individual responses at this point.

There is no doubt something I am looking to express but haven't quite gotten it organized in such a way that is presentable at this point and haven't quite put my finger on it. I'm taking in the entire paragraph and the context of what you are saying and the underlying message so to speak is quite profound and gives great insight. You are most definitely correct in that it is just a moment but what is ultimately taken from that moment, aside from the physical pleasure, is the deep emotional connection which is wholly justified and should be this way regardless. Oh, man, this is going to irk me like crazy. Hmmm...I'll have to come back to this one at some point. I've read this paragraph many times over and there's something about it that I haven't yet identified in what it is. Nothing bad or anything and maybe I'm just too damn tired at this point but this paragraph I find to be extremely intriguing.

I am an experimental scientist. I have to observe reality very carefully in my work, make hypotheses based on what I know from the past and have observed, and find ways to test those hypotheses. It is amazing what you can learn simply by careful observation. Sometimes the hypothesis is wrong and sometimes the effort to make it and to test it, teaches me new things. The whole process is one of observation, development of capabilities and skills, exploration, and enjoyment of the results. In many ways each of us should be doing the same thing with respect to our love-making. There is so much to observe, so much to try, so much to understand, and so much to enjoy. It is most unfortunate that we are not encouraged more by our society to undertake this experimental and developmental effort as a serious matter affecting our pursuit of happiness. It is most unfortunate that the centrality of love-making as an issue of high importance to our happiness is not recognized by the grant of much more freedom to discuss it and to share experiences. It would be great if there were much more open-mindedness about sex and the need to accommodate the high degree of individuality of human sexuality.

By the standards of society, those who have as much interest in it as I do, are simply perverts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

So very well said, my dear!!! You have one very very lucky wife it seems to me!!!

When I said too many people make too much of ejaculation, I forgot a cardinal rule. Namely, that it is clearly the case that not everyone is like me.

When I was a kid, I really enjoyed riding my bike around the perimeter of Rod Field and all over it in Texas. Later, I came to find that I enjoyed running long distances. When running, the first half mile was always the hardest and after about one and half or two miles, the running was shear pleasure. When I ran regularly, that shear pleasure would commonly last out to about 8 miles of hard running. Now, clearly, this is not true for everyone. We differ. For me, often long before I ejaculate, I have reached a state of euphoria in making love, which includes some aspects of that runner's high. Believe me, the feeling is great and it can last a very long while. The feeling is more than a runner's high to be clear in that there is more going on in my mind, such as the wonder of all the sensations from my nervous system, which my wife is a master at invoking. Or, the anticipation of her next move. Or, my thrill at finding that she is very, very wet or at her moans. And, much more. I really can and should only say that it in the context of the very heightened pleasure that I feel that ejaculation may be overrated. Others may not, and probably often do not, reach such levels of pleasure, so that their focus on ejaculation may be fully justified.

Sometimes, I do not ejaculate at all if my focus has been very strongly on trying to please my wife. This does not at all disappoint me in many cases. Again, my pleasure was just too great to regret. Pleasure comes in many complex forms and having a variety of forms of pleasure is rather spicy! Unfortunately, there are times when my wife is disappointed that I did not come and I have a hard time convincing her that I am perfectly happy. But, I really am. There are also times when I simply enjoy the pleasure my wife is giving me so much and I can so concentrate on it, that I also do not come. Again, I have absolutely no regrets, except concern that she is disappointed that I did not come. So, it is in this context, which is probably shared by at least a few other people, if not many, that I say that sometimes too much is made of ejaculation.

Now, I believe my wife is reasonably happy with me, but I bow before her as a lover. She is incredible. She does claim that I am an easy subject and very easy to please. There is truth in this, but still she is an incredible lover. She so enjoys torturing me with near-overloads of pleasure! I wish she had as much capability for experiencing such pleasure directly herself, but she does not. We are all different.

I can't help but have a huge smile on my face!! My, oh, my, what a phenomenal answer and I completely understand your point of view as well as your wife's point of view of her being upset that you didn't fulfill that one aspect. When it comes to a loving relationship, taking joy and happiness in fulfilling your partner's desires and making them happy is a reward in and of itself and there is no sacrifice because each person benefits in their own way. I cannot say that I haven't ever done the same as well as many others here on this site and elsewhere I am sure. Some here may frown upon this and say it is a sacrifice and the whole O'ist deal but I don't and I really couldn't care if someone screams it's so un-O'ist of you. LOL When you are in a loving relationship, their joy becomes your joy and being able to provide what your partner is desiring at that time, wanting to make him/her happy, gives rewards and payoffs to each. I cannot say that every time that I've made love with my partner that I've had an orgasm every time because I can't BUT there have been times where it is available to him if and when he needs it, despite my not being in the mood so to speak and despite my never reaching that big O during it. Having him happy and satisfied brings me happiness and that I am able to provide him with what he is desiring. But I still cannot deny that it is my goal, a goal not always achieved, but definitely my goal because that orgasm and the intensity of that orgasm....*sighing* I don't think I would even be able to describe and put into words what it's like. In learning so much that I have up to this point about sex and experimenting, the orgasms have only gotten better and 100 fold in intensity. People say, yeah, orgasm this and orgasm that but the differences between certain orgasms and the areas being stimulated are tremendous and to get the double or triple whammy such as having a clitoral orgasm, G-spot orgasm, and the above all favorite X spot orgasm and you get hit with a simultaneous triple whammy and all three areas erupting at once....OMG, just the thought mesmerizes me. Or the orgasms with double penetration are distinctly different in and of themselves but when combined, the overall sensation is far different than just a G-spot orgasm or clitoral orgasm and is far more intense. So although I do understand where you are coming from and I can't deny that this is something I am familiar with in wanting to please my partner but man, oh, man, oh, GOD, yes, I do want that orgasm and if it's a double or triple whammy....phew, that's some good stuff. LOL Thinking more about this though, I find it very interesting that there's many ways to please a man but I honestly believe that women have far more ways of achieving orgasm and how to intensify those orgasms far and above what can be done in stimulating a man. Hmmm....but then again, I know of 5 spots on a man that can produce intense orgasms. Interesting for me to think about and comparing the two and who is ahead so to speak....hehehehehe ;)

But as always, great answer and you are definitely unique in so many ways. And as I said, your wife is very very lucky to have you!! Okay, it's way past my bed time and in need of some serious sleep. More sometime tomorrow -- well, today I suppose and I possibly gave way too much info -- but regardless, the discussions have been interesting up to this point. For the sake of education and furthering my own understanding and exploration, I'm willing to talk and not so reserved.

'night!!

I understand that having the desired response from your lover is a great reward for your efforts to give them pleasure. It may even be that there is an evolutionary factor built in with regard to a woman wanting to acquire a man's semen, thereby heightening her need or desire for his ejaculation. But, some people are blessed with an intense response to touch over many areas or some areas of their bodies which are not the source of orgasms in most people. The feeling is nonetheless very electric and stimulative of a euphoria of the mind which is but little less intense than an orgasm or ejaculation, but has the advantage of lasting much longer. Sometimes, when I have been suspended in this state of being long enough, I lose the ability to ejaculate, though I may remain very stiff or not by the time I must finally relax. When I say some people, I am basing that on myself and one female friend, so my statistics are lousy, especially given that I have had fewer sexual partners than most people. But 2 people at least establishes the existence of the phenomena.

Given that I believe we are all very unique, it is often a puzzling thing to try to perceive something as complex and emotion-intense as love-making through your lover's eyes. There is always some limitation in that we are each subject to insight based upon our own introspection of such feelings and emotions, yet those feelings and emotions are not the same as those of our lover. There are many times when I wish my mind were more like a long-wavelength quantum state that could literally become entangled with the corresponding mind-state of my lover and we could each directly experience what the other was feeling. Pure science fiction, but wouldn't that be incredible, at least if it were only possible by permission of two consenting adults! For instance, it would be amazing to actually feel your lover having a clitoral, G-spot, and X-spot orgasm all at once! Ahhh... but we struggle with so many limitations. Still, that struggle is delightful.

While I have never enjoyed the idea of trying to gain dominance over others, including lovers, it is a joy to know you have the power to give them pleasure and satisfaction. That sense of efficacy that comes with seeing and feeling their pleasure is itself very rewarding. If you care about someone enough to want to make love to them, then it is right that you should feel good about the success you have in doing so. As for whether this is an Objectivist viewpoint, I do not lay anyone else's template for "Objectivist love" or "Objectivist sex" over my life. I believe the basic principles of Objectivism are right, but their application to my life is to be worked out by me and need not be consistent with anyone else's template, not even Ayn Rand's. There is no question that my views on sex and love are very different from Rand's in the details and this is a good thing, because I am not her and I believe I am a lot happier than she was!

You have an unusually great capacity for enjoying love-making, Angie, and that is wonderful thing. Love and sex are among the best things in life and we should embrace their enjoyment. They are also well worth thinking about, which you have done in some respects more than I. It is a pleasure to learn from you about this incredible knowledge you have amassed! And, I know of no woman who has thought about her sexual responses as much as you have. I wish many more women were willing to do so and were also willing to talk about it.

[Charles R. Anderson]

Charles, et al:

"Unfortunately, there are times when my wife is disappointed that I did not come and I have a hard time convincing her that I am perfectly happy. But, I really am. There are also times when I simply enjoy the pleasure my wife is giving me so much and I can so concentrate on it, that I also do not come. Again, I have absolutely no regrets, except concern that she is disappointed that I did not come. So, it is in this context, which is probably shared by at least a few other people, if not many, that I say that sometimes too much is made of ejaculation."

Ah a "fellow traveler". I have also struggled with the same situation being in an almost "Nirvanic state", sans "ejaculating", yet having climaxed. My lady will "feel" that there is an "incompleteness", and it takes a lot of convincing to temper that feeling within her mind.

However, one look at the glow that I feel eventually wins the day. I believe that there is some primitive or primal "void" that is created by the lack of ejaculating in the woman's deep imprinting. However, the closeness and bonding that we achieve eventually wins out against that "primal" issue,

Excellent discussion folks.

Adam

Yes. It is good to know that there is another man who has this experience.

[Charles R. Anderson]

A brain scanning study showed that many areas of women's brains were deactivated during orgasm, including those involved in emotion. The effect was less striking in men, but that may be because male orgasms are so short they are hard to detect in a brain scan.

Damn, that must mean I'm comatose perhaps during it. LMAO This just struck me as too far out there to even put much validity into it. That MANY areas are deactivated during orgasm....interesting.

I'll have to read each link provided. But as for the study that a lot of women report not being able to reach the big O doesn't surprise me at all. Hell, if it is pounded into you day in and day out and you are taught as you are growing up that women are not to enjoy sex and if that women have many partners that must mean you're a slut, etc., etc., etc., they wonder why women aren't responsive to sex or have problems reaching the big O, let alone that they aren't familiar enough with their own bodies. Let alone that, the responses I get when I ask a woman, do you masturbate and their first response to me is NO. I just have to laugh at this response of no. They're not being honest with me nor with themselves. It's truly unfortunate.

I would not be at all surprised if appreciable numbers of women do not masturbate or at least do it very rarely. This is unfortunate, especially for those who do not have vagina orgasms, which some of Adams references indicate may be for genetic reasons.

As for the brain shutting down, sometimes I don't have the energy to use it for a while after cumming. Perhaps my mind has shut down completely also. For sure, I often cannot stand up without feeling dizzy and off-balance, so even very fundamental parts of my brain appear to be shutting down.

[CNA]

Charles wrote:

I understand that having the desired response from your lover is a great reward for your efforts to give them pleasure. It may even be that there is an evolutionary factor built in with regard to a woman wanting to acquire a man's semen, thereby heightening her need or desire for his ejaculation.

That's a good question as to whether or not there is an evolutionary link or perhaps it is due to what we've been taught in regards to a man; that is, in order for him to feel that "ultimate climax" of pleasure, that he is to ejaculate. I know that this is what I have been taught. In order for him to get that ultimate peak of pleasure, he is to ejaculate and that this is what I am wanting. If I reach that peak and knowing that to get to that level of intensity of physical pleasure, I have to reach that peak and to go over that peak to reach that ultimate climax which is orgasm and vaginal contractions.

But, some people are blessed with an intense response to touch over many areas or some areas of their bodies which are not the source of orgasms in most people.

The specific areas I am referencing in a man that are more sensitive and produce intense orgasms are: 1. prostate 2. penis itself of course 3. small area on the tip of the penis (will have to pull up the med term but can show a visual as to where it is.) 4. collapsible shaft that feels like a vein at the base of the penis. (will have to pull up the med term but can show a visual as to what I am talking about) It's not so much a sensitivity to these areas and that they are not responsive to it. These areas have additional nerve endings and/or produce hormones related to the sexual organ and arousal. If these areas are stimulated or cut off completely such as in the collapsible shaft, it produces intense orgasms. No. 3 of course is an acquired taste so to speak but every person I have known learns or grows to enjoy it tremendously. Given your statistics, my statistics are a bit more than yours. But have to admit that all this knowledge wasn't due to sleeping around a lot. It's based on those that I have been romantically involved with over extended periods of time, some many many years. You don't become knowledgable and a good lover by sleeping around with everyone you see and fly by nights if you will because it doesn't give you time to grow and to learn. It comes from having partners that you've gotten to know well and have experimented on. My guinea pigs perhaps. LOL Yikes but no complaints thus far for being a guinea pig. LOL Oi. I'll stop now with this one.

Given that I believe we are all very unique, it is often a puzzling thing to try to perceive something as complex and emotion-intense as love-making through your lover's eyes. There is always some limitation in that we are each subject to insight based upon our own introspection of such feelings and emotions, yet those feelings and emotions are not the same as those of our lover. There are many times when I wish my mind were more like a long-wavelength quantum state that could literally become entangled with the corresponding mind-state of my lover and we could each directly experience what the other was feeling. Pure science fiction, but wouldn't that be incredible, at least if it were only possible by permission of two consenting adults! For instance, it would be amazing to actually feel your lover having a clitoral, G-spot, and X-spot orgasm all at once! Ahhh... but we struggle with so many limitations. Still, that struggle is delightful.

The limitations are lousy but that's one of the beauties of communication and getting honest answers in understanding the opposite sex's responses and perspectives. Of course, there are aspects that I will never be able to understand because I don't have any firsthand knowledge and experience with it. But by asking questions, more detailed questions if necessary and in-depth responses to those questions, it will get me as close to the firsthand knowledge and experience I may be seeking and trying to understand.

As for whether this is an Objectivist viewpoint, I do not lay anyone else's template for "Objectivist love" or "Objectivist sex" over my life. I believe the basic principles of Objectivism are right, but their application to my life is to be worked out by me and need not be consistent with anyone else's template, not even Ayn Rand's. There is no question that my views on sex and love are very different from Rand's in the details and this is a good thing, because I am not her and I believe I am a lot happier than she was!

I am not that familiar with Ayn's view of sex, although have an idea based on Atlas Shrugged and what little I have read here on this site. I have read very little of Ayn's works and honestly I prefer to keep it this way for a number of reasons, although a lot of my views and convictions are that of my own because of what happened to me which you have some understanding of but that they also line up very closely to Ayn's. To my understanding in what I have been told and what I have been able to gather from Atlas, her preferences in sex line up with mine. To what extent that they line up in her view and convictions, I am unsure of. Although a lot of my convictions and beliefs were attained by my own doing when I was very young, after reading Atlas, she did help further define a few areas of my convictions and further putting an identity to it. My views are my own. Whether or not they line up with Ayn's does not matter to me and I really do not care if they do or not. No disrespect to her in the least bit. I live my life based on those convictions that I formed and what happened when I was younger and they are designed based on what makes me happy. What little that I do know of Ayn's views, I do agree that your views on sex and love are different from hers. But some of your views on it do line up with mine. Which of your views that line up with mine and whether they are that of Ayn's as well, I am also unsure of nor am I aware of Branden's view of sex and the psychological aspects of it nor his view of relationships outside of the sexual act. I have not read any books by the Brandens. So I'm free wheeling it so to speak and prefer to keep it this way for many reasons. Just as you said, it's up to you and your own further identification and drawing your own conclusions based on a strong foundation and how it is applied to your own life. I'm not into having things handed to me on a silver platter and then implementing that into my life. I want and need experience. I want and need firsthand knowledge. I want questions asked and answers given to draw a conclusion on and checking every possibility.

You have an unusually great capacity for enjoying love-making, Angie, and that is wonderful thing. Love and sex are among the best things in life and we should embrace their enjoyment. They are also well worth thinking about, which you have done in some respects more than I. It is a pleasure to learn from you about this incredible knowledge you have amassed! And, I know of no woman who has thought about her sexual responses as much as you have. I wish many more women were willing to do so and were also willing to talk about it.

Well, thank you. Given it is a great interest of mine and an area that I am utterly fascinated by, anything that helps me to further my own knowledge and understanding I will go after. I don't mind sharing in the least bit because I think this is an area that more should talk about and to explore, the tremendous possibilities of it that so few know about nor have they taken the time to think about and how it can benefit each person and the couple as a whole is far reaching. There's still so much more to learn.

As for the med terms up above and the exact locations for what I've referenced above, I will have to find. I know where it is and can show but will have to find the exact medical terminology. But I am hoping that what I described up above will be enough to illustrate as to what I am talking about.

Edited November 22, 2009 by CNA

[Charles R. Anderson]

Aha - May 2009

And here is that Dr. I was thinking about.

Emmanuele Jannini at the University of L'Aquila in Italy discovered clear anatomical differences between women who claim to have vaginal orgasms - triggered by stimulation of the front vaginal wall without any simultaneous stimulation of the clitoris - and those that don't.

Six things science has revealed about the female orgasm

• 17:35 28 May 2009 by Michael Marshall
• For similar stories, visit the Love and Sex Topic Guide

This week we report on the continuing debate about female ejaculation: is it real, and if so why does it happen?

See Everything you always wanted to know about female ejaculation (but were afraid to ask)

Ejaculation is just one of the aspects of female sexuality that are being demystified by research. In particular, the female orgasm, the subject of so many myths and folk beliefs, is gradually being understood.

Following some intense field research, here are some of the key facts about the female orgasm, as revealed by modern science.

<h3 class="crosshead">The G spot is real</h3> The G spot is a small region in the vagina that, if stimulated, can produce wildly intense orgasms – or so the popular claim goes. However, for decades, strong evidence for the region's existence was harder to find than the spot itself.

However, in 2008, an Italian research team found anatomical differences between women who could have G-spot orgasms and women who couldn't; apparently solving the mystery. The researchers have since begun teaching women with G spots how to put them to use.

See Ultrasound nails location of the elusive G spot

<h3 class="crosshead">The brain switches off</h3> It's folk wisdom that people can't think straight when they have sex on their minds, but when women have an orgasm most of their brains switch off.

A brain scanning study showed that many areas of women's brains were deactivated during orgasm, including those involved in emotion. The effect was less striking in men, but that may be because male orgasms are so short they are hard to detect in a brain scan.

See Orgasms: A real turn-off for women

<h3 class="crosshead">Many women can't have orgasms</h3> According to a 1999 survey, around 43 per cent of women in the US have some sort of problem with their sex lives (Journal of the American Medical Association, vol 281, page 537).

Female sexual dysfunction (FSD) is so common that the very idea that it is a medical disorder has come under attack. If nearly half the female population has a problem, say critics, does that mean it is our society that is dysfunctional?

Even so, efforts to develop drugs to treat it are underway. The impotence drug Viagra has had mixed results in women, but there are many other avenues being explored.

See What women want

<h3 class="crosshead">Genes affect orgasm frequency</h3> According to the first genetic study of the female orgasm, up to 45 per cent of the variation in women's ability to have them could be down to genes.

Many women never have orgasms during intercourse, and some also cannot have them through masturbation. Some of this may be down to external factors like upbringing, but the study showed the genetic factor is significant.

See Genes blamed for fickle female orgasm

<h3 class="crosshead">Technology can help</h3> Perhaps the most extreme solution is the so-called "orgasmatron"; an implant inserted into the spinal cord, which stimulates the user when switched on via a remote control.

Despite an initial struggle to find subjects for clinical testing, the device is now in development.

See Push my button

<h3 class="crosshead">Some mystery remains</h3> The female orgasm is a puzzle for evolutionary biologists. It is unclear why women should have orgasms at all, and it is particularly baffling that so many women should be unable to have orgasms during penetrative sex, but able to have them by masturbation.

According to researcher Elisabeth Lloyd, that implies that female orgasms are an evolutionary accident. Like male nipples, they persist simply because there is no good reason to get rid of them.

See The case of the female orgasm

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist, either in print or online, please contact the syndication department first for permission. New Scientist does not own rights to photos, but there are a variety of licensing options available for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to.

Adam, reading through these accounts has added still more examples of how incredibly unique and differentiable people are by adding so much information on the different female responses to sex. Thanks for the links.

[CNA]

A brain scanning study showed that many areas of women's brains were deactivated during orgasm, including those involved in emotion. The effect was less striking in men, but that may be because male orgasms are so short they are hard to detect in a brain scan.

Damn, that must mean I'm comatose perhaps during it. LMAO This just struck me as too far out there to even put much validity into it. That MANY areas are deactivated during orgasm....interesting.

I'll have to read each link provided. But as for the study that a lot of women report not being able to reach the big O doesn't surprise me at all. Hell, if it is pounded into you day in and day out and you are taught as you are growing up that women are not to enjoy sex and if that women have many partners that must mean you're a slut, etc., etc., etc., they wonder why women aren't responsive to sex or have problems reaching the big O, let alone that they aren't familiar enough with their own bodies. Let alone that, the responses I get when I ask a woman, do you masturbate and their first response to me is NO. I just have to laugh at this response of no. They're not being honest with me nor with themselves. It's truly unfortunate.

I would not be at all surprised if appreciable numbers of women do not masturbate or at least do it very rarely. This is unfortunate, especially for those who do not have vagina orgasms, which some of Adams references indicate may be for genetic reasons.

As for the brain shutting down, sometimes I don't have the energy to use it for a while after cumming. Perhaps my mind has shut down completely also. For sure, I often cannot stand up without feeling dizzy and off-balance, so even very fundamental parts of my brain appear to be shutting down.

The reason why I said what I did is after their telling me no and the more I talk to them about it and get them more comfortable with me and expressing my own experiences, being very open in regards to my own sexual practices, they ultimately admit that they do. So that high percentage of women that claim they don't I definitely have a problem with and that these -- not all -- but many most likely are not being honest. Given the state of our society and how women are to view sex and how men are to view women and sex, admitting something that they think may be wrong and that they are to be condemned for it or judged in a negative light by it, of course they won't admit to it.

As for the imaging studies, I just find this to be extremely intriguing and would be interested to see more studies in this regard. I know during it I am completely oblivious to what is going on around me. What I find to be interesting is what they qualify as MANY...given the complexity of our bodies and the numerous systems, what do they mean by MANY and what areas do they see as shutting down. It's just way too vague for me. I remember a long while back when I had imaging done of my brain, specifically the pituitary gland because they suspected a brain tumor, both of the doctors that were looking at the real time images were amazed at the amount of activity going on and that it was unusual and something that they only saw in about 10 percent of the population. I found that imaging study referenced above to be far reaching. Given if I can remember correctly that it was only a PET scan which has its limitations, I would be interested to see more studies done in this regard. Given the complexity of our bodies and the numerous systems and the areas of the brain that is used to keep these systems functioning properly, even at the lowest rung of "survival" without completely shutting down, is significant.

As for my state and my being able to function afterwards, etc., is not quite as extreme as yours. But do have to admit that during it, all that matters at that time is what I am experiencing. I am totally oblivious to my surroundings, very relaxed. I find it hard to believe that the area that controls emotions is completely shut down in women. Having an orgasm, I am happy as hell that I got my BIG O. The emotion claim and that area of the brain, that's far reaching for me. Given they have barely understood the brain and its structures and again the complexities of it and how each area specifically functions with another and their integration, it's difficult for me to take the study as definitive proof. I would be very interested to know what the studies would show in 100 years from now or hell 50 years in any major advancements of further study into the brain and their finally being able to understand the complexities of it.

[Xray]

But, for me, while ejaculation is a great moment, it often suffers from being a moment. Sometimes it is almost a sad moment, because the anticipation is over and the many pleasures that preceded it are likely to end.

Reminds me of the Old Roman saying "post coitum omne animal triste". The addendum sive gallus et mulier is quite sexist, suggesting the "insatiable" woman who can't have enough.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Reading this title really made me angry:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7548-orgasms-a-real-turnoff-for-women.html

"Orgasms: A real 'turn-off' for women"

At the moment of orgasm, women do not have any emotional feelings," says Gert Holstege of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

While there may be brief moment of absence (as has been discussed here), the titel 'turn-off' is just plain nonsense imo, as well as the suggestion that no emotional feelings are involved.

For in reading the text, it becomes clear that it is about the drop of activiy mostly in the areas "alertness and anxiety" during orgasm.

Have the test persons themselves been asked whether they "do not have any emotional feelings" at the moment of orgasm? The type of test mentioned in the article is pretty incomplete imo.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

While I have never enjoyed the idea of trying to gain dominance over others, including lovers, it is a joy to know you have the power to give them pleasure and satisfaction. That sense of efficacy that comes with seeing and feeling their pleasure is itself very rewarding. If you care about someone enough to want to make love to them, then it is right that you should feel good about the success you have in doing so. As for whether this is an Objectivist viewpoint, I do not lay anyone else's template for "Objectivist love" or "Objectivist sex" over my life. I believe the basic principles of Objectivism are right, but their application to my life is to be worked out by me and need not be consistent with anyone else's template, not even Ayn Rand's. There is no question that my views on sex and love are very different from Rand's in the details and this is a good thing, because I am not her and I believe I am a lot happier than she was!

I am not that familiar with Ayn's view of sex, although have an idea based on Atlas Shrugged and what little I have read here on this site. I have read very little of Ayn's works and honestly I prefer to keep it this way for a number of reasons, although a lot of my views and convictions are that of my own because of what happened to me which you have some understanding of but that they also line up very closely to Ayn's. To my understanding in what I have been told and what I have been able to gather from Atlas, her preferences in sex line up with mine. To what extent that they line up in her view and convictions, I am unsure of. Although a lot of my convictions and beliefs were attained by my own doing when I was very young, after reading Atlas, she did help further define a few areas of my convictions and further putting an identity to it. My views are my own. Whether or not they line up with Ayn's does not matter to me and I really do not care if they do or not. No disrespect to her in the least bit. I live my life based on those convictions that I formed and what happened when I was younger and they are designed based on what makes me happy. What little that I do know of Ayn's views, I do agree that your views on sex and love are different from hers. But some of your views on it do line up with mine.

Imo several sex scenes in Atlas Shrugged show a remarkable amount of violence coupled with lack of empathy and caring.

This is currently being discussed here, quite controversially:

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7712&st=440, (posts # 452 and # 454)

This describes the first sexual encounter between Dagny and Galt in the tunnel:

AS, p. 957:

Then she felt the mesh of burlap striking the skin of her shoulders, she found herself lying on the broken sandbags, she saw the long tight gleam of her stockings, she felt his mouth pressed to her ankle, then rising in a tortured motion up the line of her leg, as if he wished to own his shape by means of his lips, the she felt her teeth sinking into the flesh of his arm, she felt the sweep of his elbow knocking her head aside and his mouth seizing her lips with a pressure more viciously painful than hers - then she felt when it hit her throat, that which she knew only as an upward streak of motion that released and united her body in a single shock of pleasure. (end quote)

A question re the quote from AS: "then she felt when it hit her throat"

What does "it" refer to?

Rand often desribes her heroes as ruthless, etc. Galt is the complete opposite of a caring lover. Not to mention Roark, who even commits a gutter-level sexual assault, not matter how Rand tries to play it down by calling it "rape by engraved invitation" (in which case it would be a sadomasochistic scene).

It is no so much Rand's subjective preferences which are the issue (what turns people on is their own business), but Rand's agenda was to present characters like Galt and Roark to the readers as the ideal man, "the man as man should be" (Roark).

It seems like quite few people many first got acquainted with Rand's work at a fairly young age (in their teens), and therefore might think of the Randian heroes also as sexual role models to emulate.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

While I have never enjoyed the idea of trying to gain dominance over others, including lovers, it is a joy to know you have the power to give them pleasure and satisfaction. That sense of efficacy that comes with seeing and feeling their pleasure is itself very rewarding. If you care about someone enough to want to make love to them, then it is right that you should feel good about the success you have in doing so. As for whether this is an Objectivist viewpoint, I do not lay anyone else's template for "Objectivist love" or "Objectivist sex" over my life. I believe the basic principles of Objectivism are right, but their application to my life is to be worked out by me and need not be consistent with anyone else's template, not even Ayn Rand's. There is no question that my views on sex and love are very different from Rand's in the details and this is a good thing, because I am not her and I believe I am a lot happier than she was!

I am not that familiar with Ayn's view of sex, although have an idea based on Atlas Shrugged and what little I have read here on this site. I have read very little of Ayn's works and honestly I prefer to keep it this way for a number of reasons, although a lot of my views and convictions are that of my own because of what happened to me which you have some understanding of but that they also line up very closely to Ayn's. To my understanding in what I have been told and what I have been able to gather from Atlas, her preferences in sex line up with mine. To what extent that they line up in her view and convictions, I am unsure of. Although a lot of my convictions and beliefs were attained by my own doing when I was very young, after reading Atlas, she did help further define a few areas of my convictions and further putting an identity to it. My views are my own. Whether or not they line up with Ayn's does not matter to me and I really do not care if they do or not. No disrespect to her in the least bit. I live my life based on those convictions that I formed and what happened when I was younger and they are designed based on what makes me happy. What little that I do know of Ayn's views, I do agree that your views on sex and love are different from hers. But some of your views on it do line up with mine.

Imo several sex scenes in Atlas Shrugged show a remarkable amount of violence coupled with lack of empathy and caring.

This is currently being discussed here, quite controversially:

http://www.objectivi...pic=7712&st=440, (posts # 452 and # 454)

This describes the first sexual encounter between Dagny and Galt in the tunnel:

AS, p. 957:

Then she felt the mesh of burlap striking the skin of her shoulders, she found herself lying on the broken sandbags, she saw the long tight gleam of her stockings, she felt his mouth pressed to her ankle, then rising in a tortured motion up the line of her leg, as if he wished to own his shape by means of his lips, the she felt her teeth sinking into the flesh of his arm, she felt the sweep of his elbow knocking her head aside and his mouth seizing her lips with a pressure more viciously painful than hers - then she felt when it hit her throat, that which she knew only as an upward streak of motion that released and united her body in a single shock of pleasure. (end quote)

A question re the quote from AS: "then she felt when it hit her throat"

What does "it" refer to?

Rand often desribes her heroes as ruthless, etc. Galt is the complete opposite of a caring lover. Not to mention Roark, who even commits a gutter-level sexual assault, not matter how Rand tries to play it down by calling it "rape by engraved invitation" (in which case it would be a sadomasochistic scene).

It is no so much Rand's subjective preferences which are the issue (what turns people on is their own business), but Rand's agenda was to present characters like Galt and Roark to the readers as the ideal man, "the man as man should be" (Roark).

It seems like quite few people many first got acquainted with Rand's work at a fairly young age (in their teens), and therefore might think of the Randian heroes also as sexual role models to emulate.

Good grief did I forget to lock the damn gate on this thread!

Thanks for spewing your anti Ayn, gender feminist pap from another thread into an intelligent and open discussion. Would you kindly either speak from personal experience and actually add something positive to this discussion or turn around and huff off to the other threads where most folks do not want to speak with you either.

Thanks.

Adam

Edited November 22, 2009 by Selene

[Xray]

While I have never enjoyed the idea of trying to gain dominance over others, including lovers, it is a joy to know you have the power to give them pleasure and satisfaction. That sense of efficacy that comes with seeing and feeling their pleasure is itself very rewarding. If you care about someone enough to want to make love to them, then it is right that you should feel good about the success you have in doing so. As for whether this is an Objectivist viewpoint, I do not lay anyone else's template for "Objectivist love" or "Objectivist sex" over my life. I believe the basic principles of Objectivism are right, but their application to my life is to be worked out by me and need not be consistent with anyone else's template, not even Ayn Rand's. There is no question that my views on sex and love are very different from Rand's in the details and this is a good thing, because I am not her and I believe I am a lot happier than she was!

I am not that familiar with Ayn's view of sex, although have an idea based on Atlas Shrugged and what little I have read here on this site. I have read very little of Ayn's works and honestly I prefer to keep it this way for a number of reasons, although a lot of my views and convictions are that of my own because of what happened to me which you have some understanding of but that they also line up very closely to Ayn's. To my understanding in what I have been told and what I have been able to gather from Atlas, her preferences in sex line up with mine. To what extent that they line up in her view and convictions, I am unsure of. Although a lot of my convictions and beliefs were attained by my own doing when I was very young, after reading Atlas, she did help further define a few areas of my convictions and further putting an identity to it. My views are my own. Whether or not they line up with Ayn's does not matter to me and I really do not care if they do or not. No disrespect to her in the least bit. I live my life based on those convictions that I formed and what happened when I was younger and they are designed based on what makes me happy. What little that I do know of Ayn's views, I do agree that your views on sex and love are different from hers. But some of your views on it do line up with mine.

Imo several sex scenes in Atlas Shrugged show a remarkable amount of violence coupled with lack of empathy and caring.

This is currently being discussed here, quite controversially:

http://www.objectivi...pic=7712&st=440, (posts # 452 and # 454)

This describes the first sexual encounter between Dagny and Galt in the tunnel:

AS, p. 957:

Then she felt the mesh of burlap striking the skin of her shoulders, she found herself lying on the broken sandbags, she saw the long tight gleam of her stockings, she felt his mouth pressed to her ankle, then rising in a tortured motion up the line of her leg, as if he wished to own his shape by means of his lips, the she felt her teeth sinking into the flesh of his arm, she felt the sweep of his elbow knocking her head aside and his mouth seizing her lips with a pressure more viciously painful than hers - then she felt when it hit her throat, that which she knew only as an upward streak of motion that released and united her body in a single shock of pleasure. (end quote)

A question re the quote from AS: "then she felt when it hit her throat"

What does "it" refer to?

Rand often desribes her heroes as ruthless, etc. Galt is the complete opposite of a caring lover. Not to mention Roark, who even commits a gutter-level sexual assault, not matter how Rand tries to play it down by calling it "rape by engraved invitation" (in which case it would be a sadomasochistic scene).

It is no so much Rand's subjective preferences which are the issue (what turns people on is their own business), but Rand's agenda was to present characters like Galt and Roark to the readers as the ideal man, "the man as man should be" (Roark).

It seems like quite few people many first got acquainted with Rand's work at a fairly young age (in their teens), and therefore might think of the Randian heroes also as sexual role models to emulate.

Good grief did I forget to lock the damn gate on this thread!

Thanks for spewing your anti Ayn, gender feminist pap from another thread into an intelligent and open discussion. Would you kindly either speak from personal experience and actually add something positive to this discussion or turn around and huff off to the other threads where most folks do not want to speak with you either.

Thanks.

Adam

I do speak from personal experience. This is implied in my post where I pointed out that very young people (who have not yet encountered a caring lover) might get a totally distorted picture from Rand's unempathetic "heroes".

Edited November 22, 2009 by Xray