Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 On the Pinochet thing, I don't think like either side.The choice between two evils is still evil.You may not be able to help doing it under the circumstances, but in such a case, it is nothing to feel guilty for or be indifferent to. Or be proud of for that matter.It's a damn shame and it always will be.The only good (as opposed to "lesser evil") is to move on from there and make a world where this kind of limited choice is no longer possible.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 I am going to pass on this argument, but essentially Michael focus is the way to go.However, in reading your Palin article in post # 74 above, it reminded me about her being a point guard.The fact that she was a point guard was a major selling point to me because it tells me a lot about a person's personality. Particularly witha woman. Having played very competitive sports and having managed and coached both men's and women's {or as Ted taught me man's} teams that were real serious, women and men are completely different in how they approach the "game".It is fascinating how different we really are at common team oriented endeavors.Thanks for the reminder.I like her even more because of that knowledge.You go girl!!Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I am going to pass on this argument, but essentially Michael focus is the way to go.Well, duh. Even I said war is hell and civil war is worse. Pressing a button and having the US Cavalry impose the Marshall plan was not one of the options. Michael's "focus" is simply to say he doesn't like it and not take sides. Not taking sides as the fight rages about you doesn't mean innocence, it means condoning the worse side. It's almost as bad as a having a girlfriend who, when you ask where she wants to eat out, tells you where she doesn't want to go. Dante reserved a ring of hell for those people too, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 Ted:Perhaps I missed the not taking sides part in Michael's post?Because the following seems to imply something quite different to me..."You may not be able to help doing it under the circumstances, but in such a case, it is nothing to feel guilty for or be indifferent to. Or be proud of for that matter."Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Ted:Perhaps I missed the not taking sides part in Michael's post?Because the following seems to imply something quite different to me..."You may not be able to help doing it under the circumstances, but in such a case, it is nothing to feel guilty for or be indifferent to. Or be proud of for that matter."AdamYou are somewhat right, I missed that - but he is wrong to say one doesn't take pride. One always takes pride for making the tough decision. Joy, probably not, but pride, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 Not so sure of the "always" part of making a decision. However, I see what you arguing.Interesting question, that will take some thought.If you had to, as in the MASH episode wherein Hawkeye is suppressingthe memory of the mother smothering her child so as not to give up thepeople on the bus, that is a decision that I can't even associate with"pride".Hmm good question Ted.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Not so sure of the "always" part of making a decision. However, I see what you arguing.Interesting question, that will take some thought.If you had to, as in the MASH episode wherein Hawkeye is suppressingthe memory of the mother smothering her child so as not to give up thepeople on the bus, that is a decision that I can't even associate with"pride".Hmm good question Ted.AdamYou don't take pride in the fact that the kid died, or that you killed the kid but in the fact that you acted when it was necessary. No one promised you a rose garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Ted,I don't know how you conflate "choosing the lesser evil" with "not taking sides," but it's your logic. In Brazil, they say each mind is its own verdict.You can feel pride all you want. I will never feel pride at killing innocent people. I might feel pride at getting the bad guy, but if it means killing innocents, that spoils the pride a lot for me.It's beyond a choice for me, but it's also a choice. I like being this way.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Ted,I don't know how you conflate "choosing the lesser evil" with "not taking sides," but it's your logic. In Brazil, they say each mind is its own verdict.You can feel pride all you want. I will never feel pride at killing innocent people. I might feel pride at getting the bad guy, but if it means killing innocents, that spoils the pride a lot for me.It's beyond a choice for me, but it's also a choice. I like being this way.MichaelYou just need to read my two posts prior to this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 You just need to read my two posts prior to this one.Ted,Read them again? Why?You said 3,000 people murdered is "very little to cry over" because 3,000 was not a larger number. And implied that the people who made the "tough decision" to murder them should feel pride because they could make such a "tough decision."Bullshit.I disagree. Strongly. I have no interest in debating this. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 "An amnesty and free elections after the death of 3,000 who chose to fight for their murderous principles strikes me as very little to cry over."Ted, a statement such as the above is an embarrassment to any human being. Ginny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) You may not be able to help doing it under the circumstances, but in such a case, it is nothing to feel guilty for or be indifferent to. Or be proud of for that matter. Here are just a few of the techniques used by this regime on their capitives: * Deliberate corporal lesions * Bodily hangings [suspensions] * Application of electricity * Mock execution by firing squad * Sexual aggression and violence * Witnessing and listening to torture committed on others * Russian roulette * Witnessing the execution of other detainees * Asphyxia * Exposure to extreme temperatures I can guarantee that these were not necessary to stave off communism. Ted and Matus: The entire argument against my judgment of Pinochet as pure evil seems to be that what happened in Chile was preferable to the alternative of communism. Perhaps, but this does not make Pinochet any less of an evil scumbag. If murderer A kills five people every month, and murderer B kills thirty people every month, it is rational to conclude that this former is less dangerous than the latter. It does not mean, however, that he is a good man, let alone some kind of hero of freedom. It is still completely immoral to idolize a murderer or dictator of any kind. Edited July 12, 2009 by Michelle R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Sure, lots of leftists look nice and cuddly when they are among your family and friends. A cousin of mine and his wife, driving me to a wedding, commented as we drove through a nice neighbourhood, "These are the people who will get it first when the revolution comes." How darling! What such statements imply, but which we don't like to think about, is that people who make such statements will be among the victims when the counter-revolution comes. Sorry, but playing the Marxist Leftist is simply not consequence-free safe-sex mental masturbation. Masturbation of that sort has its price. The proof is in the pudding. An amnesty and free elections after the death of 3,000 who chose to fight for their murderous principles strikes me as very little to cry over. The majority of leftists are decent folk who aren't far gone like the revolutionary Marxists are. Let's keep some perspective. Edited July 12, 2009 by Michelle R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Michelle,I am almost amused about this. While in Brazil, I produced a very famous left-wing singer named Geraldo Vandré who won one of the Viña del Mar song festivals and was good friends with Víctor Jara before he was martyred in Estadio Chile by Pinochet. (Geraldo is no longer leftist and I believe I had a small hand in that.)I knew people both in and against Operação Condor.My personal contact with Chile over my 32 years in Brazil was distant, but I was in contact with many people who were involved with the major events there. I know things...Pinochet was scum. Military bully. Milton Friedman and the Chicago School did some good in Chile working with him, but Keriiist! We learned the hard way that guns and butter for capitalism is evil. What can we say about torture, murder and butter for capitalism? I don't know how these dudes slept at night.This whole thing really turns my stomach. It didn't have to be that way. Brazil didn't even do that and Brazil did a whole lot of crap back then.MichaelEDIT: There is an amusing (but tragic) case I never could forget. The person who told me this was a journalist named Antonio Fon. He was arrested and tortured in DOI-CODI at Rua Tutóia in São Paulo during that time. (I used to live very near there in the 70's and had no idea that it was Brazil's torture dungeon.) Fon even wrote a book about his experiences. While he was in there, a new prisoner showed up one day. This guy had gone out drinking with a Sergeant from the military police. He and the Sergeant went on a Homeric bender and he woke up in DOI-CODI without remembering anything. They tortured this poor guy for a month for him to "tell the truth" about why he was "really" arrested before they finally released him. And the Sergeant didn't say anything during all that time out of embarrassment.Talk about a hangover! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Jesus, Michael, you said you would never feel pride over killinɡ, and I said in the prior post that you don't feel pride over killinɡ, you feel pride over havinɡ acted as was necessary. You really need to try to understand what you have read, sometimes you miss a subtle but real and valid point, and then result to childish noise makinɡ for no reason. I sometimes miss the point too, but as you will see when Adam corrected me above I admit try to admit my mistakes when I realize them. So There! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ted,I am going to try to be very clear. I agree that the rhetoric is getting thicker than the discussion warrants, even the vanity issues.Here goes:If I kill a really bad guy, I might feel pride, but I seriously doubt it.If I have to kill innocents to get the bad guy, I would feel no pride at all.The first is like talking out the garbage and the second is like taking out the garbage and accidentally spilling it all over a priceless painting on the way out.I don't feel pride at talking out the garbage. I just do it because it has to be done. Otherwise it piles up.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Sure, lots of leftists look nice and cuddly when they are among your family and friends. A cousin of mine and his wife, driving me to a wedding, commented as we drove through a nice neighbourhood, "These are the people who will get it first when the revolution comes." How darling! What such statements imply, but which we don't like to think about, is that people who make such statements will be among the victims when the counter-revolution comes. Sorry, but playing the Marxist Leftist is simply not consequence-free safe-sex mental masturbation. Masturbation of that sort has its price. The proof is in the pudding. An amnesty and free elections after the death of 3,000 who chose to fight for their murderous principles strikes me as very little to cry over. The majority of leftists are decent folk who aren't far gone like the revolutionary Marxists are. Let's keep some perspective.I aɡree that many leftists believe they are well intentioned, and I very much enjoy my cousins' company. But this is a very important truth that people do not ɡrasp. Silly leftist beliefs held in the context of a free country with a responsible ɡovernment are one thinɡ. The very same beliefs held in the context of Chavez or Allende are totally different. Votinɡ is a violent act. It is a substitute for civil war. If you vote in a would-be dictator, and continue in spoutinɡ leftist nonsense, at some point you have become the apoloɡists and advocate of a murderer. The difference is subtle and the chanɡe catches people by surprise. Do you really think that all those ɡermans voted for a dictatorship under Hitler or that people who voted for Chavez owuld approve of firinɡ squads? But then what happens when the person you voted for does start doinɡ those bad thinɡs? Does no one have responsibility for their words? Can they keep on usinɡ that lanɡuaɡe because when they used it before it was all in fun? At some point, protestinɡ on behalf of a leftist (dictator) becomes protestinɡ on behalf of a (leftist) dictator. Freedom of speech is contextual. One does not have the freedom to yell fire in a crowded theater. One does not have the freedom to advocate the initiation of violence, or support for a dictator who uses violence. Once your man in office starts seizinɡ people's property and throwinɡ them in jail if they resist, you are on the dictator's side in a civil war. This is not a ɡame. This country was close to civil war in 2000 when ɡore tried to steal the election, and it isn't very far from civil war now. People who take words seriously and who object to calls for violence aɡainst the rich or whomever are not the ones who need to take it easy. It is people who call for revolution who need to learn the danɡer of the objects they are playinɡ with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ted,I am going to try to be very clear. I agree that the rhetoric is getting thicker than the discussion warrants, even the vanity issues.Here goes:If I kill a really bad guy, I might feel pride, but I seriously doubt it.If I have to kill innocents to get the bad guy, I would feel no pride at all.The first is like talking out the garbage and the second is like taking out the garbage and accidentally spilling it all over a priceless painting on the way out.I don't feel pride at talking out the garbage. I just do it because it has to be done. Otherwise it piles up.MichaelAnd I do feel pride at takinɡ out the ɡarbaɡe when I really would rather not. You should treat yourself better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 And I do feel pride at takinɡ out the ɡarbaɡe when I really would rather not.Ted,Are you for hire?I believe in hiring folks who feel pride in their work... MichaelEDIT: btw - I see you are being crucified elsewhere as a closet Christian (who is not really a closet Christian and maybe not even aware of it, but is one anyway). At least you can have a Jesus complex with justification... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 And I do feel pride at takinɡ out the ɡarbaɡe when I really would rather not.Ted,Are you for hire?I believe in hiring folks who feel pride in their work... MichaelEDIT: btw - I see you are being crucified elsewhere as a closet Christian (who is not really a closet Christian and maybe not even aware of it, but is one anyway). At least you can have a Jesus complex with justification... Peepinɡ tomism is a bad habit, Michael. The accusations of "Christianity defender" are beinɡ made (1) because they can't beat me on the facts and (2) because they are tribally shocked that I won't join in their false accusations and simplistic history. Note that not one sinɡle specific act of my supportinɡ any Christian doctrine or policy has been demonstrated. There are no specific charɡes, just the ɡeneral accusation of a "pattern" of crime. A pattern with no points to define it. They embarrass themselves and they embarrass the philosophy of reason and justice for which they supposedly stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ted,So...Are you for hire?Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Damn Ted what's up with the hot grey "g"'s or am I having an intra-dimensional hallucination.Also, I hate to bet picky, but the accurate quote from the Schenck decision is that:"...one cannot falsely shout fire in a crowded theatre."I do not think that applies to any plays made from Michael Moore or Al Gore films.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ted,So...Are you for hire? MichaelNot to take out the trash, but I do write on commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Damn Ted what's up with the hot grey "g"'s or am I having an intra-dimensional hallucination.Sorry? The allusion is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Not to take out the trash...You should treat yourself better.Hmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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