Why it is better simply not coming out, ever.

[John Tate]

I'm homosexual, I rarely say anything about this anymore, and I rarely bother. Thanks to gay pride movements I don't plan on being open about my sexuality for a good fifty years. Maybe longer. Why is this you might wonder? Apart from it being nobodies business, when I have said anything about my sexuality, I get the most annoying responses possible. Often people don't even believe me about my sexual preferences simply because I don't fit the stereotype of a collective gay man. When I meet other gay men, apart from on occasion, they also tend to bind themselves to a tribe that literally has tribal makeup and a uniform, along with a tribal tradition of being promiscuous. Fuck those faggots, I would rather beat off till the end of my days than know a single one of them.

In fact, other gay people behaving like a tribe have made being gay completely unbearable. When I think about Ayn Rand's few comments on the subject, I can't blame her for finding homosexuality disgusting. The tribal faggots are disgusting, and worse for me, all that there is to see. Their behavior consists of making their sexual preferences as obvious as possible while holding that their sexual preferences don't matter or define who they are. Despite saying that sexual preferences don't define who they are, they commonly stick a "scene" and dress the same, act the same, aspire to do the same stupid bullshit in terms of jobs.

This certainly doesn't apply everyone that is homosexual, just for those that are seen and they are seen because of the manner these faggots behave.

The fact is, I don't face any threat of violence from rednecks and bigots simply because I don't behave like a total faggot and talk like a woman. Most people who I do end up telling don't even believe it simply because I am not some neat and tidy wanker obsessed with manicures and other bullshit. Gays are not overly hygenic, faggots are. I'm sick of the stereotype! I bite my nails, and I work from home so I shower every second day just because I can. I don't have loads of female friends. I don't eat well, nor do I work out.

Note: my use of the word 'faggot' is warranted. The only people who care about such things are members of the collective homosexual trend that deserve to be offended. The only way a mere word can be offensive is if idiots let it bother them anyway.

[John Tate]

And now I just read my own post I can't help but thinking of Chris Rock's "Black People vs Niggers."

[tjohnson]

Interesting, I have never seen this distinction made between gays and faggots. I suppose this is something you only come to know about if you socialize with them a fair bit.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

John,

That's quite a rant...

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Note: my use of the word 'faggot' is warranted. The only people who care about such things are members of the collective homosexual trend that deserve to be offended. The only way a mere word can be offensive is if idiots let it bother them anyway.

Do you think the distinction you make is typical of homosexuals, or is it your own particular crotchet?

This is not new to me. I have heard some Jews making a distinction between Jews and kikes. I have to tell you I find this most bothersome. Why? I find being divided in the face of our enemies not the most productive policy.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Barbara Branden]

John, you object to being seen as a member of a collective, a tribe; but are you not hiding what is part of your identity because of the collective judgments of other people? If some idiots think all gay men fit the stereotype you describe, that's their problem. Why do you care what idiots think? Why should you live a lie in order to pacify idiots?

If you were Jewish, would you think it appropriate to hide that fact because of the rising anti-Semitism in the world -- thus winning the good will of people who would hate you if they knew the truth? If you were black and could pass as white, would you lie about who you were in order to please white racists who believe all blacks are criminals? I hope your self-esteem will be stronger than your fears.

Many courageous gay men and women have fought -- and some have died -- in order to make it possible for gays to come out of their closets. It would be a sad commentary on their efforts if you failed to take advantage of their achievement.

Barbara

[kiaer.ts]

The problem is not with straight people and "conservatives" it is with gays (a term I dislike greatly) and liberals. If you are "gay" then you are ipso facto "liberal" or there is something very wrong with you.

[Donovan A.]

Thanks to gay pride movements I don't plan on being open about my sexuality for a good fifty years. Maybe longer.

Are you not outing yourself here and now?

Apart from it being nobodies business, when I have said anything about my sexuality, I get the most annoying responses possible. Often people don't even believe me about my sexual preferences simply because I don't fit the stereotype of a collective gay man.

Are you annoyed that people associate certain types of behavior and mannerisms with sexual orientation? If so, why does it bother you so much?

In fact, other gay people behaving like a tribe have made being gay completely unbearable. When I think about Ayn Rand's few comments on the subject, I can't blame her for finding homosexuality disgusting. The tribal faggots are disgusting, and worse for me, all that there is to see.

Do straight people not also behave in tribal ways? To be honest, I have not experienced a lot of pressure to conform to any particular stereotypical behavior, or ideology from the gay community. It is true that most gay people become philosophically homeless once they conclude that they must choose between their sexual orientation and their religion, and as a result they sign up for anything that they think is now pro to their sexual identity. In many ways, most people are socialistic, even republicans are. Politically active gays vote usually based on the single issues which are important to them (gay rights). We can argue about whether those ideas are right or wrong, but I have met my fair share of capitalistic gays.

Their behavior consists of making their sexual preferences as obvious as possible while holding that their sexual preferences don't matter or define who they are. Despite saying that sexual preferences don't define who they are, they commonly stick a "scene" and dress the same, act the same, aspire to do the same stupid bullshit in terms of jobs.

I think there is some confusion here. Generally, gays do not want to be discriminated against. And on moral and epistemological grounds I agree with them, one's sexual orientation is usually insignificant when it comes to a person's qualifications for most jobs. This does not mean that one's sexual identity is not important. Generally, gay pride is an inaccuracy of language. What is really meant by gay pride is: be proud of your honesty, be proud of being a human being, be proud of being an individual, be proud that you have courage, be proud that you seek happiness.

The fact is, I don't face any threat of violence from rednecks and bigots simply because I don't behave like a total faggot and talk like a woman.

Should a person face the threat of violence based on acting like a woman? Don't get me wrong, I think a person should seriously consider their behavior in some contexts to avoid being a target of violence. There is a difference between foolishness and courage.

Gays are not overly hygenic, faggots are.

You are putting a lot of pressure on yourself and on others by your harsh words. What is your motive? Do you want people to conform to your view of the "Gay" category? Is that not also tribalism?

I'm sick of the stereotype! I bite my nails, and I work from home so I shower every second day just because I can. I don't have loads of female friends. I don't eat well, nor do I work out.

Why do you notice them? Will getting rid of these people create the people you are looking for? Those seem like pretty superficial reasons to be sick of someone.

Note: my use of the word 'faggot' is warranted. The only people who care about such things are members of the collective homosexual trend that deserve to be offended. The only way a mere word can be offensive is if idiots let it bother them anyway.

I am offended by your use of the term, and I am not a typical homosexual. The whole purpose of using that word is to scare and bully people into collectivism and conformity, not in regard to just what a person wears, but their very sexual identity. The motive of using that language is to scare someone into rejecting who they are. The motive of using that language is to make someone feel they have to choose between their sexual identity and their life and or happiness. Using that language is certainly not an offering of respect to individuality. If being tribal means you wear the same or similar clothes, that you have the same values, the same interests, the same ideas, then who is not part of a tribe? Individualism means using your own judgment in relation to the facts of reality that you have identified as opposed to implementing the psychology of a social metaphysician.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Donovan A.

[Judith]

I've known gay people all over the spectrum, and I've learned not to make any assumptions. I guess I'd say, in response to your post, that your choices are, of course, your own, and you owe nothing to anyone. Were I you, however, I'd think about the fact that by staying silent about my orientation, I'm failing to encourage and morally support others like myself. I'm also reducing the chances that others like myself will approach me and thus losing the possibility of their friendship/romantic ties. There's really very little to lose from being one's self in this world, and a huge value to be gained -- especially if one has a bit of skill in self-defense.

Judith

[Chris Grieb]

Interesting topic.

John; I have been struggling with many of the same issues. I am in disagreement with the gay agenda especially the parts that have government conaining people eg The so-called civil rights laws.

[Selene]

John:

Any relation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tate

The year of the Baths fire on the West side of Manhattan I managed a Randian Libertarian who ran for Councilman at Large for Queens County in the Democratic Primary against Eugene Mastropieri, an organization Democrat who lived in Sands Point in Nassau County and was a complete political whore.

We endorsed the Gay Rights Bill that was proposed that year. We cut a deal with Gary Ackermann, who was part of the insurgent battle for control of Borough Hall and the Don Manes crew, to fund our candidate's petition campaign. Our guy was also Italian and we were looking to split off Italian votes from Mastropieri and get Ackermann's guy in.

Gary had good hooks with the Manhattan Gay community and they poured into Queens to help our get on the ballot. So I got to see first hand the entire Gay community of NY City including the typical Judy Garland impersonators at all the clubs and bars in Queens where we were getting signatures.

My favorite was the Crow's Nest in Astoria that was run by a retired Marine with a flat top haircut and work of art tattoos. As we walked in, we were greeted at the door by a Catholic Priest from Brooklyn who was there for the fund raising effort for the Baths tragedy. I jokingly asked him if the Arch Diocese of Brooklyn knew about him since he was in his clerical garb collecting donations for a Gay cause and he laughed and replied that he would be leaving the Priesthood in about five months. And of course, the Judy Garland impersonator was warming up the crowd in the back room where the show was.

I met Gay people who were flamingly overt and completely hidden and I almost felt pity for the pressure and stress that folks put on themselves and what a total waste of productive energy it was.

Adam

[John Tate]

John, you object to being seen as a member of a collective, a tribe; but are you not hiding what is part of your identity because of the collective judgments of other people? If some idiots think all gay men fit the stereotype you describe, that's their problem. Why do you care what idiots think? Why should you live a lie in order to pacify idiots?

If you were Jewish, would you think it appropriate to hide that fact because of the rising anti-Semitism in the world -- thus winning the good will of people who would hate you if they knew the truth? If you were black and could pass as white, would you lie about who you were in order to please white racists who believe all blacks are criminals? I hope your self-esteem will be stronger than your fears.

Many courageous gay men and women have fought -- and some have died -- in order to make it possible for gays to come out of their closets. It would be a sad commentary on their efforts if you failed to take advantage of their achievement.

Barbara

I understand what you mean. The point is I can try to find guys all I want, all I find are people who fit that stereotype. I don't see much of an achievement being made, being gay is still incredibly controversial and most people even those who seem most tolerant, make a big deal about homosexuality. Actually, the worst perpetrators of treating gays differently seem to be those who call themselves open to it. If I state I am gay and those people hear, they will place me high up on a pedestal simply for being gay. There is nothing really that special about it to me, its just a preference.

Though my rant was perhaps slightly exaggerated. My friends know my preference and in some places I don't get any unwarranted attention from it.

If being Jewish and letting people know I was Jewish resulted in loads of Jewish people and others against antisemitism giving me special treatment, and generally getting in my way, I would avoid the problem and abstain from making it obvious I'm Jewish. I'm not worried about discrimination, I am worried about the opposite. When I was younger, I made my sexuality blatantly obvious to those around me for a brief time when I was young and it resulted in having lots of "friends" who respected me simply because I was different.

That is a problem with gay rights since its inception, it hasn't demanded rights so much as recognition as if homosexuality is some great achievement and talking about it is some great triumph.

In response to everyone else:

Personally all I really could want of the world is for things like homosexuality not to be given a very big deal. Much like multiculturalism is inverted racism, the insane obsession with homosexuality these days in culture in a positive light is pretty much inverted homophobia. Perhaps it should be called homomania.

There is nothing exciting about gay people, and yep, we are people. In any social situation though, being gay is either exalted or shunned. The biggest cause of this are the attention whores who present their sexual preferences as something we should give a shit about.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

John,

If you are worried about gay being some kind of issue on OL, you can rest easy. I personally don't know the sexual condition of most of the posters here and it just isn't important unless someone raises a specific issue. In fact, I rarely see it discussed here.

Once in a while Rand's opinion on homosexuality is commented on, but not too much else. And even that is usually treated in passing as reference to another topic, like her personality.

Anyway, I'm glad you got that off your chest.

Back to ideas...

Michael

[kiaer.ts]

John, I am curious how old you are, and especially, where do you live?

I am bisexual, of "standard" masculinity, and was born in '68. I grew up in the Philly suburbs and live in New York. I came out to school friends and my sisters at 16 and I had one huge problem. No one believed me. I have been out and not out at various jobs. It seems never to have made a difference except once, when I was working as a cook. It turned out my direct boss, a body-builder, was going thru a divorce, and there seem to have been some "issues" if you know what I mean. That was 1991.

But I sincerely can't even remember the last time my sexuality has been an issue. I dated a woman seriously for six years, she knew, it did not matter. I have had two long term male relationships. My family knows about me - and they are conservative Catholics - but I get more guff from my mom about my choice in movies (film noir, screwball comedies and Doctor Who) than I do about my "condition" (MSK) or my atheism.

It simply isn't an issue. At least not with happy people.

The ONLY time sexuality is an issue is with some other "gays." And this is pretty much only if I choose to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - like a gay bar in the suburbs or at a democratic political event or an on campus GayLesbianTransBi self-identified victim support group. It is in these incestuously parochial circumstances where you run into the "one of us" syndrome. Otherwise, you can even find plenty of homosexuals who are simply people. Even, yes, very effeminate types!

I can sympathize with your hatred of the identity thing. But truly, this is a syndrome that a grown-up adult can avoid. Just don't hang out in the wrong places.

[Donovan A.]

Sorry I keep mentioning the competition, but on OO.net, they added a sexual orientation feature to profiles. I like this a lot. It is difficult to find other Gay-Objectivists. Obviously those who do not wish to disclose their sexual orientation do not have to. If everyone was the same, then advertising would not be necessary.

[Donovan A.]

It would also be nice to have a function that deals with one's location.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Donovan A.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ted,

"Condition" is correct. I was taught that by a very dear friend in Brazil.

Here are excerpts from a couple of posts I made about him back on SoloHQ (now RoR) in 2005: here and here. I cut out the harsh language I blasted against a misguided young writer at the time. I believe he has even changed his mind since then. But the scorched earth obnoxiousness that I formerly used is not the way I write any longer, nor is it the way I feel. (And guess which part of my writing was praised at the end of the thread and by whom? As if it could be otherwise...) My second post was addressed to another poster who thought I was being a bit mystical.

(From the first post):

... I have a personal story to relate and an homage I would like to pay.

I have always shunned overbroad categories on issues like homosexuality. I never think just "gay." I always think, which type of gay? Some homosexuals are innately homo from birth and some choose later from life's experiences (especially traumas). I believe that others simply try it and like it - I have known some men and women in the porn industry in Brazil who claimed that. (No, I never did porn, although I did dub some professionally at one time.) Of the innate type, I sincerely believe that just as some people are born tall and others short, some left-handed and some right, it is not only possible to be born with an "inclination" toward homosexuality, it is also possible for a woman's spirit to be born into a man's body and vice versa. I have known such people.

...

I had a close Brazilian friend, Vicente Cechelero, now deceased, who I believe was a woman born into a man's body. (I have always had very talented and intelligent gay people around me all my life, although I am not gay.) He was a brilliant poet. His first book of poetry (Só Matéria do Mundo) won every prestigious prize that Brazil offers its artists, including the Olavo Bilac prize of the Brazilian Academy of Literature. In Brazil, this is more or less equivalent to winning the Pulitzer prize.

One poem I liked so much that he dedicated it to me (among several others), Deitei-me na Casa de Prometeu (I Laid Down in the House of Prometheus). Another poem, Está Morrendo uma Língua (A Language is Dying), starts with the dying of the language human beings use use to communicate, then with the act of communication itself between human beings, then with communication between humans and the very reality they live in, illustrating massive destruction by the image of a phallic mushroom cloud from an atomic bomb ripping open the anus of God. Despite the almost comical aspect of this image stated in this context, in the poem it was extremely powerful, conveying the horror of what happens when man abandons the world to those who would kill his spirit. Now who but a male homosexual could come up with an image like that?

I never did get him into the works of Ayn Rand, though I tried. He was always more interested in Brazilian and Portuguese authors. He was more intimate with the Portuguese language than any other Brazilian I knew.

Vicente was always troubled about his homosexual nature and told me several stories about his infancy. His father's name was Delírio, which in Portuguese means something more akin to "ecstasy" than "delirium." Nonetheless, that is one hell of a name for anyone's father, even in Brazil.

One day, when he was six years old, his father was sleeping on a hammock in the country. Vicente had been thinking about breasts from watching his mother breast-feed one of his siblings. Then he saw his father sleeping. His rationale was that if you put you mouth on your mother's breast as a baby, what about your father, from where life itself springs? (Most learn the birds and the bees very early in Brazil.) So, while his father was sleeping, he unzipped his father's pants and started fooling around with his penis. His father, coming out of sleep to that kind of pleasure, looked down and saw to his horror that it was his son. There was no discussion. He went and got his revolver and took out after Vicente, who's mother had to hide him to keep him from being shot - literally. Other family members had to take him in because his own father would have nothing to do with him for years after that.

Now how on earth is a six year old going to rationally choose something like what Vicente did?

In the end, after a tortured life of constant doubts and guilt and some brilliant poetry, Vicente died because of his inner conflict about his homosexuality. He was never effeminate. He dressed like a normal hetero man. But he was a woman inside. This manifested itself in his need to seduce mostly married men and he was strictly passive.

He once told me that he had introduced making love to men to somewhere about 800 married men after I, rather tastelessly in my own fashion, asked him how many cherries he had popped. (Incidentally, that included about 7 or 8 Protestant preachers.) I believed him because I saw him change boyfriends constantly. Most were first-time married men I presume, because the ones he introduced me to were somewhat embarrassed to be talking to me in his presence and they did not behave as normal Brazilian gay men do.

Finally, trying to get the female inside him out onto his body, he started taking hormone injections to increase his butt size and grow female-size breasts. His heart did not withstand the strain and he died of a heart attack while still in his forties.

(Note to the curious. Actually Vicente told me much of this - and more - trying to get into my own pants. I believe that for a long time he was in love with me. But I loved him like a brother and I wasn't going for it anyway. He always used to brag to his friends that I was his "healthy" friendship side.)

How I so wish that something like Solo had been around when Vicente was alive. I sincerely believe that it would have been a lifesaver to him and he would still be among us. He craved being accepted on a nonsexual basis and being appreciated intellectually by others who were intelligent and talented and didn't always put sexuality in first place. In Brazil, there is nothing like Solo I am aware of.

...

Most queers don't choose to be queers. Vicente's life is empirical proof to me, as if that were needed.

And as for Vicente, I really miss him. A lot.

(From the second post):

I consider someone like Vicente sort of like a midget, giant, person with 6 toes or whatever. Some might call this a freak, but I don't. I call it exceptional. Nature's variety principle. Chance becoming manifest. For as much as a biological species will have certain norms, there will always be exceptions.

I find the term "psychological problem" to be a euphemism and derogatory. What we are addressing is so more than that.

...

People like Vicente have a biological condition. A woman's spirit was born into a man's body. That might cause a "psychological problem," but the root is not psychological. It is biological. And it is not a problem. It is a condition. (As a matter of fact, it was Vicente who taught me that - and he was always quite adamant about it.)

Your mystic comment on spirit should be thought about with a great deal of care. I was not using the word in the Christian sense. There is definitely a male "mindset," "spirit," "soul," "character," or whatever else you want to call it, just as there is a female one.

In the culture here in the USA that I encountered on coming back, I found a lot of doublethink due to political correctness. A is not A, if you will. A man cannot think and act like a male without being called sexist. You can't call a black person black without being thought of as a racist. The list goes on and on. So the easy way out is to pretend that these differences do not exist. But facts don't go away just because you don't talk about them or think about them anymore.

A consciousness is a part of a newborn, but it is undeveloped. So is undeveloped "maleness" and "femaleness." The mind-brain part of this is what I mean by "spirit." I think the idea of a sexless consciousness that grows genitals as it gets older a robotic and not an organic concept. In a newborn, the genitals are there waiting to grow just as much as a sexual consciousness is.

Thus an undeveloped "female consciousness" (since you don't like the "s" word) will develop into an adult female personality - biologically and not just psychologically. Even if the person is a paralytic. If this female consciousness is trapped into a male body by an accident of nature, there will be a conflict of the body developing one way and the sexual identity developing in another, not because of any "psychological problem," but because of normal biological growth.

I see nothing really to pity here, either. A person with this condition accepts his/her birthright and makes the best of it - just like we all do with our own limitations. I need glasses, for example. Gotta deal with it. Life's a bitch sometimes.

I looked Vicente up on Google and came up with an entry on him in the Portuguese Wikipedia. Her is a drawing from there. (God! The memories!!!)

Incidentally, Vicente's last book, A Lingua das Sombras (Language of the Shadows), was originally dedicated to me. I am even mentioned by name in the middle of one of the poems (if I remember correctly, it was "O Bruxo da Bexiga"--The Male Witch of the Bexiga Neighborhood).

He was extremely depressed when I met him and was about to destroy all his poems. I was learning how to fiddle with a hand-scanner back then, so I offered to put all of them into the computer as practice. Many of those poems ended up in his book. So he wanted to dedicate the book to me for that reason in addition to our friendship and nonstop chatter on intellectual ideas.

He worried the dedication idea to death like a dog with a bone because he was afraid that I would suffer consequences from having a well-known homosexual dedicate a book to me. This tormented him for some reason and I never gave it a second thought. (Maybe he was trying to leverage that into getting into my pants. On reflection, that sounds more like him. )

I was at the end of my crack addiction back then. Vicente did not know about it, although he did know about my previous alcoholism. (In fact, we first met in an AA meeting.) I can't remember what happened, but I must have done some crazy something or other. We had a nasty falling out over nothing and he removed the dedication right before the book went to press. He later expressed regret, but by then it was too late.

After just looking at Google, I am glad to see that his name is spreading throughout the world.

Like I wrote back in 2005, I miss Vicente. A lot.

Michael

EDIT: I just noticed that I did not translate Vicente's main book: Só Matéria do Mundo. It relies on a a pun that is impossible to translate "só matéria" (only matter) and somatéria (summation). So a close approximation is "Only the Matter and Summation of the World."

[John Tate]

John, I am curious how old you are, and especially, where do you live?

I am bisexual, of "standard" masculinity, and was born in '68. I grew up in the Philly suburbs and live in New York. I came out to school friends and my sisters at 16 and I had one huge problem. No one believed me. I have been out and not out at various jobs. It seems never to have made a difference except once, when I was working as a cook. It turned out my direct boss, a body-builder, was going thru a divorce, and there seem to have been some "issues" if you know what I mean. That was 1991.

But I sincerely can't even remember the last time my sexuality has been an issue. I dated a woman seriously for six years, she knew, it did not matter. I have had two long term male relationships. My family knows about me - and they are conservative Catholics - but I get more guff from my mom about my choice in movies (film noir, screwball comedies and Doctor Who) than I do about my "condition" (MSK) or my atheism.

It simply isn't an issue. At least not with happy people.

The ONLY time sexuality is an issue is with some other "gays." And this is pretty much only if I choose to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - like a gay bar in the suburbs or at a democratic political event or an on campus GayLesbianTransBi self-identified victim support group. It is in these incestuously parochial circumstances where you run into the "one of us" syndrome. Otherwise, you can even find plenty of homosexuals who are simply people. Even, yes, very effeminate types!

I can sympathize with your hatred of the identity thing. But truly, this is a syndrome that a grown-up adult can avoid. Just don't hang out in the wrong places.

I'm 21 and just starting to work out what you are pointing to. I live in Melbourne. The frustration is also that it is hard to find other gay men unless it is in places like you talk about. Checking out dating sites and such I generally only seem to find men looking for pointless sexual encounters. Quite frankly if that is what I wanted I'd just see a rent boy. I can afford a rent boy, and hell, prostitution is pretty legal where I live.

All this talk about a condition?

I sincerely believe that just as some people are born tall and others short, some left-handed and some right, it is not only possible to be born with an "inclination" toward homosexuality, it is also possible for a woman's spirit to be born into a man's body and vice versa. I have known such people.

I think the notion that anyone is born gay is ridiculous. I don't think sexuality is some purely biological half of the body while the mind is separate. I'd say my sexuality could be caused by a number of things that have led to my value judgments now as an adult. I consider a choice being involved and that I have chosen this. You have acknowledged that people can try and like it. Having never had an intimate encounter with a woman that was meaningful in any way probably contributed to my choice. An old stereotype exists of the straight man who never works out he is gay. It is just as possible I am a gay man yet to work out I am straight. I would readily accept the label bisexual the day I had sex with a woman I loved. There are girls I love, just like anyone does. I could hold the premise that I was born gay, and tell myself I love the girls meerly as friends. However if chemistry provided it I know I would go all the way.

One day, when he was six years old, his father was sleeping on a hammock in the country. Vicente had been thinking about breasts from watching his mother breast-feed one of his siblings. Then he saw his father sleeping. His rationale was that if you put you mouth on your mother's breast as a baby, what about your father, from where life itself springs? (Most learn the birds and the bees very early in Brazil.) So, while his father was sleeping, he unzipped his father's pants and started fooling around with his penis. His father, coming out of sleep to that kind of pleasure, looked down and saw to his horror that it was his son. There was no discussion. He went and got his revolver and took out after Vicente, who's mother had to hide him to keep him from being shot - literally. Other family members had to take him in because his own father would have nothing to do with him for years after that.

Now how on earth is a six year old going to rationally choose something like what Vicente did?

In the end, after a tortured life of constant doubts and guilt and some brilliant poetry, Vicente died because of his inner conflict about his homosexuality. He was never effeminate. He dressed like a normal hetero man. But he was a woman inside. This manifested itself in his need to seduce mostly married men and he was strictly passive.

That is a weird way to consider someone being born gay. Yes, how exactly does a six year old rationally choose to do something like that? Also, since when is sex an irrational and blind act? When I was about six my father would show me the basics of electronics. One day I built a circuit in childish fantasy that could never work and decided to connect it to the power point using a kettle cord and putting clip leads in the hole. I got an extremely nasty electric shock that could have killed me. By any adult standard that would be the behavior of a delirious or suicidal engineer. However I certainly wasn't born a suicidal engineer. However from the logic applied to your story of a six year old, I was born a suicidal engineer.

In fact once when I was five I was urinating and decided to see what it tastes like. I wasn't born with a piss fetish either, and it tasted disgusting and I certainly don't have one now.

Finally, trying to get the female inside him out onto his body, he started taking hormone injections to increase his butt size and grow female-size breasts. His heart did not withstand the strain and he died of a heart attack while still in his forties.

I met a schizophrenic who thought there was hydraulics inside of him. He cut open his stomach and had to be rushed to hospital. I'd say the woman inside your friend was a similar delusion. Six year old girls don't just naturally hop up and take on their fathers dongs naturally. Saying that the story of this boy fellating his father out of curiosity proves he is homosexual is like saying certain molestation victims want to be molested. The kid probably knew nothing about sexuality and just wondered what a penis tastes like or something. One thing stands out in the story, everyone made a big deal out of his sexuality from then on especially as father and the kid was basically taught he was gay. No wonder he had some screwed up inner conflicts.

Sorry I keep mentioning the competition, but on OO.net, they added a sexual orientation feature to profiles. I like this a lot. It is difficult to find other Gay-Objectivists. Obviously those who do not wish to disclose their sexual orientation do not have to. If everyone was the same, then advertising would not be necessary.

ObjectivismOnline banned me ages ago when I was new to Objectivism and somewhat a moral relativist. I can say first hand however, regardless of how irrational I was being, that the majority of ObjectivismOnline are complete lunatics. I started a debate there about child sexuality and wondered what the objective facts were against children and sexuality (and generally pro-pedophile movements). They banned me considering me a troll, without any appeal or reason (and regardless of the fact I'd withdrawn my silly moral-relativist posts). I'd changed my mind because one person whom I forget by name had made a reasonable claim rather than an overemotional dozen words of utter rubbish like everyone else.

That forum is nothing more than a cult and complete waste of life. It is dickheads like the ones that lurk that forum that give meaning to the term "Randroid." I prefer to call it life of Bryan syndrome. Bryan says think for yourself, and everyone wants him to do it for them. Ayn Rand wants to people to live individually and think for themselves, and most of OO let Ayn Rand's thoughts act for them.

Ironically I eventually got sent a message from the same guy who swayed my silly views that he didn't see a good reason for why I was banned and unbanned me. I still can't access the forum because those idiots have banned my IP block (basically every single person using my ISP cannot access the forum) and are too damn retarded to check their own emails and hear about it.

Back on topic.

I'm also reducing the chances that others like myself will approach me and thus losing the possibility of their friendship/romantic ties.

Close your eyes and imagine a world where every woman you can possibly meet that is interested in you act like complete retards and are unbearable. Homosexuality is off the menu in this imaginary world. You would probably just move on to other things than sex and love right? I know I am.

If you are worried about gay being some kind of issue on OL, you can rest easy. I personally don't know the sexual condition of most of the posters here and it just isn't important unless someone raises a specific issue. In fact, I rarely see it discussed here.

I am certainly not worried. I was never worried with a small soundbyte of Ayn Rand's either that homosexuality is disgusting. It seemed more the case that like me, Rand didn't see what the big deal was about. What people do in their bedrooms is a private affair. I don't care if someone finds homosexuality disgusting. I find teenage couples disgusting, I still don't go around beating them up or asking for statist control of teenagers and their public displays of love. The Objectivist ethics make it pretty clear that there is nothing wrong with who I am.

[Rich Engle]

For what it's worth, anyone that knows me at all knows orientation is a non-issue. I spent twenty years in the opera/theater/dance world, so, uh...stereotypes? Let's just say most myths might, indeed be based on fact..

Flamers are just flamers, they're either just like that, or in worse cases caught up in affectation. Those are mainly gay men who, upon coming out, somehow seem to think they have to start lisping and skipping. It's like being a hillbilly one day and then deciding to wake up the next day with a German accent, or something...what the hell?

To flaunt it proudly and well, though, that takes some real heart, and I've had some dear friends over the years that make "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" look like a Shriners meeting.

One standard old saw I tend to agree with (not just about orientation, but more oftenly seen there)...straight people who are not homophobic often say it like this: "I don't run around grabbing people and saying 'Hey, I'm hetero! I like pussy!.'

Yes, the difference is we are talking about a repressed minority on the other side, but still, it's kind of annoying after awhile. I have to waste time saying "yes, that's fine you like (insert general slang for male member), just like I like (insert general slang for my most beloved of all destinations). " It's just taxing after awhile. Like MSK says, back to the ideas, I really don't care what's on your breath or what your finger smells like.

rde

I tried to be slightly less vulgar, Barbara, but you know me...

Edited February 8, 2009 by Rich Engle

[BaalChatzaf]

It's just taxing after awhile. Like MSK says, back to the ideas, I really don't care what's on your breath or what your finger smells like.

I say, Old Chap. You do have a way with words.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[John Tate]

I can be pretty vulgar if someone is incredibly hostile towards homosexuality for religious reasons. I probably shouldn't repeat but take this as a warning and read no further: "You know that nice feeling when you take a shit? That's what buttsex feels like - only buttsex lasts longer." Because I've noticed most people enjoy taking a dump and its an excellent comeback to homophobic people because it insinuates they feel the same physical pleasures of homosexuality.

Only had to use it once in a social arrangement years ago where some nutcase was ranting about how disgusting homosexuals are. I decided to let that one out rather than letting my blood boil silently. It shut the guy right up. I then suggested I should put the saying on a billboard in front of a school which kind of annoyed everyone. Ah, teenage years, I miss them already.

[Selene]

Yo mate!

How distant are you from these wild fires - 95 dead already - damn!

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I think the notion that anyone is born gay is ridiculous. I don't think sexuality is some purely biological half of the body while the mind is separate.

John,

Your second statement is is why I think any notion that the mind exists in a human being without biology is ridiculous, including the sexual part of the mind.

Objectivists don't think much about seeds, but seeds develop into mature living entities. Their nature is already in the seed, although a lot happens along the way during growth.

To say one is born a certain way and has no volition is ridiculous. But to say one has volition and has no nature other than what he chooses or encounters is equally ridiculous.

Life and sexuality are made up of a lot of things. Being born is one of them. Volition is another. Experience is another. Etc.

And none of these come in equal measures for all people.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

That is a weird way to consider someone being born gay. Yes, how exactly does a six year old rationally choose to do something like that? Also, since when is sex an irrational and blind act? When I was about six my father would show me the basics of electronics. One day I built a circuit in childish fantasy that could never work and decided to connect it to the power point using a kettle cord and putting clip leads in the hole. I got an extremely nasty electric shock that could have killed me. By any adult standard that would be the behavior of a delirious or suicidal engineer. However I certainly wasn't born a suicidal engineer. However from the logic applied to your story of a six year old, I was born a suicidal engineer.

John,

Any adult standard?

You talk about "the logic." From your statements, I have no idea about what kind of logic you are using.

As a general pattern, I see you constantly mix cognitive and normative abstractions, then preach your conclusions. But even on the level of formal logic, I can't get a decent syllogism out of your statement above. Also, you seem to like denouncing a lot.

I think you have a good mind. I highly suggest the system of identify, then judge. I think you can do it well once you start. What I have seen you do so far is judge, then try to fit the arguments to the judgment and/or build your arguments on it without proper grounding.

I am not being hostile. This is a horrible habit with some people when they get involved with Objectivism (I used to do it myself) and I am trying to alert you to it—maybe save you a few years of needless bickering, hostility and unhappiness.

Michael

[kiaer.ts]

John, I met the love of my life when I was 23. I had come out at 16, and had seen just about everything you could imagine by 21, and thought I was jaded. My sole advice is that if Melbourne is truly so horrible, you should move. Do not feel guilty sleeping around until you meet someone you like. You are entitled to enjoy yourself so long as are trying to move in the right direction.