John Tate

Well, I appreciate the advice but it looks like I'll be leaving Objectivism in any organized fashion. I am tired of so many things, the first being that whenever I meet an Objectivist it seems they think I am not and only because I was never very good at the second-hander game. I can't repeat and emulate Ayn Rand as accurately as they can, and so I am seen as not being an Objectivist. It is pretty annoying if you ask me, we might as well assume because for someone pretending they are only fooling themselves. Objectivism as a philosophy seems as dead as all of the others. I believe the culprit is that useless people, too useless to even be hairdressers are attracted to philosophy. They can't practice what they preach. Worse still, nobody seems to understand my problem. I thought a group of Objectivists would be the last place I'd hear the "you're just depressed" line when talking about the Government. Especially a foreign Government with no bill of rights, no individual rights in its constitution, and so on. I should have never mentioned my mental illness, because as soon as I've mentioned that people assume its an emotional issue and isn't real. Why post at all at that point? I'm not going to listen. It seems absurd, because I'd have got a decent response if simply I had lied in the first place. I apologize, sarcastically, for not treating some people here like the idiots that they are. I love the suggestion to join the Marines, as if I am just a brute. I bet that person has never finished anything technical on his own in his entire life. I have, and that is what I am sick of. Objectivism can't help me, because its clearly been flooded with unskilled and gossipy people wherever I go. As an organized movement, it is about as useful as the Buddhist Temple I left when I read Anthem. I am a highly skilled programmer, my biggest sadness being that I don't know any others. Well, I now know after weeks of trying that I am not going to find particularly skilled people anywhere near Objectivism. Maybe they are all on strike! I wish that were true. I'm sick of it, I can't express my problem well enough and nobody can understand it. We've all wasted our time it seems in this discussion. Everybody seems to make assumptions about me too easily and what the problem is. Really, I might as well turn to Kantianism. I am looking for a method by which I can evade fears which are factually founded. Sounds perfect!

You are exactly the kind of arsehole I just wrote about in my rant. Objectivists don't have a cold calculated way of looking at the world, we have a cold calculated way of looking at anything which is in front of us. You think you are better than us because you are concerned about a fuckload of strangers? By any test, any chess game, any scientific activity, we are better than people like you. You need to be concerned with your own existence, but you believe you have nothing to offer and no skills. You are not better than us, you are the worst. All of these groups and individuals you have talked about have their own brains, what they don't need is the assessement of someone like you nor the policies and edicts which follow. I think you are a parasite, I tried being interested in these "worldly" issues once. Then I realized its those people which are not living their own lives but everyone elses that is the problem. You are the problem, these scientists don't think about me at all. You're mistaking several groups for the people that claim to speak for them, and you do it while claiming to speak for them. All you care about is what people think, its fucking pathetic. I am extra angry at you, because it seems the fine people of this forum have mistaken me for you and I can't even get help anymore because everyone is done wasting time with assholes like yourself.

Well, I never got to be a teenager and an Objectivist. I got to be a gifted teenager and an egoist though, and the problems teenage Objectivists are facing are not just because they don't understand the philosophy fully and seem religious. Nor is the problem one where people often identify too much integrity - but it is close. The problem is that, to be an egoist you have a supreme sense of self-esteem. I knew and still know that I truly am better than most people not only morally but in terms of skills. As a teenager, I was an arrogant brat to most people. Yet really I was just a skilled programmer. I didn't want to be in school doing pointless rotes, much like Dagny I just wanted to be doing something productive. The biggest problem for an Objectivist is that teachers are teaching a liars self-esteem. Any real egoist, is made out as a sociopath usually during these same classes. They call us shallow, and all kinds of names which don't really apply. Anything which stands in the way of these hedonistic teachings is derided. As a result, I think egoists hide and other students lose the best standing example of what really is right. In older times, an egoist was impossible to shut up. These days an egoist is crushed on sight. We are seen as cruel - and all we deprive people of are excuses. To me every teenager is an egoist, or trying and it needs to be encouraged. There is no better age to have someone read The Fountainhead or watch the movie, because usually a teenager has no higher power than themselves which they observe. For some reason, Anthem is propaganaized by the ARI which seems completely idiotic to me. Anthem is about rejecting society wholesale, not just the idiots, and really it just seems to be peddled because its an easy read. I don't doubt most teenagers aware of those efforts see the ARI with contempt, another special interest group that thinks everyone is just stupid. It really does appear that way to me, and I am not a teenager. Personally, most Objectivists want to live there lives and that is what it is for. As for those who promote the philosophy for their lives and gain something from that they don't seem to be doing a very good job. I remember I met an Objectivist as a teenager who chastised me over something, I think it was piracy. She didn't do a good job telling about the philosophy, because as someone who was a master with machines this woman seemed like an absolute unskilled rotter. I got the impression she was someone who knew nothing about electronics because she had the nerve to call me a thief over copying a file. I won't start a piracy debate here, despite the fact I don't need to steal anything to do it, and that most intellectual property holders deserve it for turning to the Government rather than flawless technologies like TPM. I wonder if this woman, whoever she was, thinks I am a rotter and just a spoiled Napster generation kid. Well, that is my lesson because I know now many years later that this women would have liked me a lot. For the older people here, have you scorned any teenagers lately? I doubt you understand them at all! There might be a teenager in your life who seems like an uneducated rascal when really he is a self-educated person wise beyond their years. I don't mind what happened so much, because its whoever that women was that seems to have lost something. She lost any hope in hell of knowing me, and it stands as a good point. I've met kids raised Objectivists - and they're not. They're just useless little twirps with no skills - but so many young people think they are better than me just because I smoke weed for instance. Too bad, by having ten times the productive ability, I can smoke weed and be smarter than you. You can probably tell I didn't fit in at school with anyone. Quite frankly I'm worried Objectivism will just become a label for straight edge kids. I know this Objectivist teen online, shes completely useless. She didn't have a job like I had, she has no marketable skills. Yet, I am the "bad egg" because I smoke cannabis - something that it stands to reason I shouldn't do. Anyway, this rant might be hard to follow but the moral of the story is for Objectivist old farts and teenagers alike that someone might seem "only interested" in Objectivism or to have basically come up with much the same thing as I think I did. Too many stereotypes are used to single people out, and you might be missing out on John Galt himself and just because he is doing something silly like cannabis. The fact is there is no a-priori knowledge and using stereotypes like this to rule people out is just fucking retarded. There is probably a socialist computer geek at your school, who just hasn't worked out yet that the premise that he uses for socialism is holding him back. Teenagers, you shouldn't be so fucking worried about politics. I bet if I asked some questions, I could call all of you statists. It is completely pointless, and alienates the philosophy not the people. These people will go get great jobs and forget all about you. I was never a talkative hack obsessed with politics, but those people thought the worst of me. All I can remember about people interested in politics at school was that they seemed like unskilled parasites. There are probably heaps of Objectivists that seem that way to people who are actually smart. That is how most Objectivists would have appeared to me as a teenager, as second-handers that can't actually write any programs. Actually, considering the complete horseshit uttered by people as reputable as Leonard Peikoff about computing - it seems Rand's touch has been lost. Rand learned to drive trains to write novels, and always grasped the subjects she talked about. These days, most Objectivists don't including arrogant twits like Peikoff. I wish Ayn Rand were still alive, because she'd be giving that title to me. End rant.

It's often just that people have little other ideas in the area. This reminds of an experience I had with a psychologist ( or psychotherapist if I remember) from Mexico who really wanted me to feel better by showing a horoscope book type thing that predicted your attributes based on your birth day. I was skeptical but interested on how accurate the description was. Then I realized that she was reading the wrong section for my date. Any confidence I had with her collapsed into a deep contemptuous distrust bordering on hatred. I informed her of the error with a derisive smile, and never came back again. I also got of the med she had given me and went through a week of withdrawal, which of each day felt like I had a hangover. My life was far from better at the time, but it did leave me with a sour taste for psychologists. I am just tired of it. In all my life the only contempt or discrimination I've ever been treated with has been by some pain the the arse case manager who doesn't jack squat about anything. Social workers are also complete godamn fools, I can never trust any of these rats. Once in a rehab like place, and I am a terrible chess player but I was quite out of it and drugged up on prescription drugs. The doctor wanted to get me out of the 'anxious' mindset by keeping me relaxed for a week. I dare say it kind of worked. Yet I bet this idiotic social worker in a Chess game, I don't know how anyone could be that bad. That isn't just humor, I'm not even that fond of the game. I left quickly after that. My problem isn't so much the therapy as the system itself. The Mental Health Act allows involuntary treatment but unless I stay for six months I'm not getting into the state supreme court of victoria, where I live I don't have rights it seems. I've had to operate under compulsion for a quick release too many times. I've seen the state destroy people with ECT too many times, against their will. Hell, I've had daydreams of having a posse of escaped lunatics and we just go and break people out periodically like gangsters getting protection money from psych wards, but patients who want to leave. It's a fucked up system, I rarely see it helping anyone. Quite frankly its like an awful long scene from Half-Life 2 but its real, right in front of me, and more a result of a spendthrift lunatic altruist in Governement for too fucking long than my mental illness. I emailed to the Prime Minister on National Suicide Week when she pledged more Federal money and programs, "How many more people have to kill themselves before you push them over the edge?"

I took a while to reply to the last batch. I noticed in my late teens when I'd spend a lot of time helping others who were sexually abused that this happens to everyone who has been put in that situation. There are others with the same effects. I've never thought of it this way, but it seems like I'm holding myself back in the same way by vicimizing myself over the policial situation. And I do spend too much time, thinking about ways to strike the Government. You've got me thinking. It used to be that for me. It's all the catchphrases people say can leave me fuming sometimes these days, and avoiding people is doing me no good. Once I stormed off on a friend just for saying "Well, were in it together," a week ago while drinking. He never asked why, but he knows. The things people say at the moment keep bringing it up for me, Objectivism. It's not just politics, actually its rarely politics. It is just ordinary life, sometimes this starts interesting discussions. I find 99% of people absolutely boring, and they find me absolutely snobby. Yet in the world of networking and such as a goal towards employment, it isn't doing me much good anymore it seems. In highschool being an overly self-educated snob with excellent grades did me a lot of good. I stayed out of trouble. Now it just has me out of sight completely. Sometimes, and with friends more in touch with American culture people don't understand what I am trying to say at all when I make a philosophical objection to something. Yeah I live in a small town, I can't possibly afford to live in the city so I had to move here. I know what you mean, when I lived there I had a lot more interesting places to go. Then again, I never met anyone like Sarah in the city and she is a lot like me. I grew up in this area and left at 14 and moved back on my own last year around May. I've tried support groups - I don't like the entire theory behind bipolar and I might make a thread about that another time. I don't think I have depression at the moment, I don't feel unmotivated. I think I have been though without realizing it, which is making a lot of things seem strange. I'm worried I am on the verge of a bad manic episode - but I should be able to avoid it. I've been diagnosed, I've even been in a psychitatric ward about two years ago convinced I was a spy from a manic episode. I took lithium for a year and stopped because it made me too unemotional and I didn't seem to react to things very well. I cope very well with my condition, in fact anyone not coping could learn from me. Unforuntely, they're stuck with the system and nobody that copes with it needs the system. I wish they could find me. ---- Because of my experiences with akathisia, malnutrition food in psychiatric hospitals, and an obsession with patients whims I am very much anti-psychiatry though not completely. As a profession, they seem to be careless and sloppy. Ignorant of any cognitive side effects that would make my life useless. Seroquel I still take and can get from my ordinary doctor. Before that it was Risperidone, and my IQ dropped on online tests to 70 from 122 on that drug. On Seroquel, it gained 2 points to 124 by my own testing that I've experienced first hand and am comfortable with. The Seroquel however causes akathisia which is like an annoying sensation all over the body. It could be used to torture people it is that horrid. They didn't even care, and they refused to allow me alternatives. I just live with it or not take it when I can, its only when I am manic that I become prone to psychosis and delusions and all my manic episodes are easy to spot when I know the warning signs. Still, my medication is unbareable and three different psychiatrists did not care the slightest and won't authorize a change. They're quite evil I think, I hate the system. I wish I were in America, because the customer is always right. Here, because they don't need my money, they don't even care what I want. I also have a problem because many people in mental health believe Objectivism is mentally unhealthy and need an intellectual shitkicking. There seems to be this immense faith in psychiatry by Objectivists. Well, I wish I could share the same sentiment, but here psychiatry is only a business for the rich now. Everyone else gets it for free, and so I can have useless doctors at $0 or a good one at $400. Good medicine is simply not in my means.

They are good points, I've had a good sleep. I seem to get clouded by emotions and today I'm wondering why they happen. I've done a bit of thinking and I've realized that I have On a side note, I think depressive realism is basically just a malevolent universe premise. Coining new terms seems unnecessary. Well I've posted here a bit a while ago, I've lurked a lot, and I have a lot of respect for many of the members. I'm really just a stranger to anyone else here. I'm 23 too . It does take a long time to find your way, and I believe the key lies in the first post I made. Just because I say it doesn't mean much though. You will have too prove it to yourself first for you to truly believe it. It is good advise, thanks. --- Mostly I'm hoping those here who have been through the same thing have good suggestions on overcoming it. I feel very overpowered. I need to live within the system but the system is almost completely irrational. Many trades and skills that would work well in the mean time require I complete courses when I think I should be able to do the tests. I've done electronics my entire life, but it would take five years of substandard wages on an apprenticeship to be legally able to market these skills. It bothers me because the Government here seems to be too trusted by people. I can see why a qualification adds an authenticity. Yet, no matter what I do it seems I have to impress rather than prove myself. Another thing that bothers me about the people around me is that they are too afraid of breaking laws when nobody could get caught. For example, minimum wage laws. I can't seem to get a break anywhere, and its killing me. I could get some kind of demeaning employment tailor made for crazy people through the welfare system. It's very hard to get work, when I feel I need to be honest about any shortcomings I have. Yet its not the shortcomings that seem to put anyone off employing me, many seem to feel its exploitation, and others it seems to be mass delusions about the nature of mental illness. Short comings I don't have are seen when they are not there. I'm glad I no longer get help from Government mental health services. They seem to have become full of Robert Stradler like doctors. I had this strange psychologist who I originally wanted CBT from. Yet all she wanted to do is show me these relaxation techniques she had invented. She didn't care about what I wanted, and that is because she didn't care about money. She doesn't have too. It is strange, because its twice something like that has happened in my life. Once while I was in a psychiatric hospital for mania a doctor did the same thing. I really don't feel I have many places to turn with my mental health. It has become very prudent to just avoid them, and so I learned to deal with my symptoms without medication. There are private psychologists, and I think I'll just keep looking for work so I can afford one in the private sector. I've realized nobody who is mentally aware could tolerate working directly for the State Government considering the strange regulations. As far as support for my mental health problems is, I'd be a healthier cave hermit rather than a client of the Government services. My ataxia and antipsychotics never mixes well anyway, I get akathisia and involuntary muscle movements when I am on those. They don't care about the agonizing akathisia, and so I got them to discharge me. They didn't even believe I had the symptom, and they never do. I hate most psychiatrists, they seem to have gone so far on a liars hunt for the welfare of irresponsible junkies that it just no longer makes any sense what they do. They clearly don't care about my welfare.

I'm 23 basically.

I feel what people think matters because I have to live in society. I feel alienated, from jobs and everything I need to see my horizons. I don't sit around arguing anymore, I just go silent. It shouldn't matter so much but it does when I'm this young. I've met someone, but that doesn't help me very much with jobs. Courage is something I've been doing everything to work on. I've been working out so I feel strong and can face... even the worst of the irrational.

They discharged me actually from professional help. I am thinking of doing CBT though because of exactly what you just said about thoughts. The biggest problem is it seems to be a fact that I have no future in this country. My father, he seems ashamed of me... yet enlightened as well. I feel doomed by facts, and sometimes I just want to flea to America.

Well, I've been gone a while and resolved many of the issues I came here with. Yet, I seem to be in the worst position in Australia. After the floods many people now treat me with caution over things I said that never used to bother them. It isn't just that though - I feel completely ostracized from everyone for being an Objectivist. I either have to lie like hell, and become a worthless shell of a man like Alan Greenspan or just give it up which is impossible. I feel I've got less because I am met with so much apprehension. I also seem to never be worthy of many other Objectivists - just because I have life problems. It's like they've forgotten about a priori knowledge or something and I'm supposed to know it all automatically and never make mistakes. I also can't talk about flaws, as its as if its low self-esteem to them. For example, I have ataxia in my motor cortex, yet I play perfect guitar - I'll never be able to play piano but I love myself for that because even though it was ten times harder when I started I believed in myself and got there. Nobody should feel sorry for me, but pity is the usual response. I get by really well without my lithium anymore, I don't believe it universally is but for me bipolar manic episodes don't exist. I slow myself down - I've done it to write this. I've become the king of my own body, my flat, my programming, my diet, and my mind. Yet socially I am silent and reserved - unwilling to speak. It's done a hell of a number on one of my oldest principles, to not treat people like idiots. I feel angry too often, and some people seem so ignorant that their ideas attack me physically that I almost just want to punch them up. I can't bring myself to take that action, but I work out now and I could so easily win. In this country, in the part I am living, a rural area that would win the debate. There is so much violence these days, more than I've ever seen. I'm angry as well - and its because I am beginning to fear for my life. I fear too much, I fear this mindless hydra will enslave me because I'll never have the future I want if I don't just lie to these fools. I can't do that either. I am left completely without much in the way of a course of action. I've become afraid to socialize, because people get so angry at my ideas. People thought Ayn Rand could be excessive in her passion, but here I face a million passionate people about nonsense and cultural brainwashing with no principles. I've sucuumed to fear - because nobody likes who I am. Yet, I've met this girl who a month ago was crazy. She found something logical I wrote and just loved my ideas. She knew I was a genius, not a sociopathic parasite. She was into the Venus Project and lots of things, I wrote this, and saved her. Shes learning about logical fallacies now and I seem beautiful. She is beautiful - I've never met anyone quite like her. She is obsessed with her dream of being a Youth Worker. Her only principle was the truth. Yet the world I live in seems tiny and devoid of people I can stand or can stand me. I am becoming extremely afraid of the political situation in Australia, I am becoming extremely afraid of the forgotten value here of not the poor but the battler working his hardest. I was once quite patriotic to the slogans and things in Australia. Even that common ground is dead, belief in free markets is dead. We have the most evil Prime Minister I've ever seen in my entire life - and its my blood she wants to suck. Senator Conroy has monopolized broadband - and I know censorship is coming down hard. My brother seems to think I am in a cult - and I've had to just tell him to never speak to me again last night. He won't leave me alone over Objectivism as if its the source of my problems (ironically because of the stuff about repression, which could be used as a word for it with some context dropping because I am being repressed by too many others. I face unintelligible nonsense wherever I go. Conservatives that think if we privatize the "private" health system it will go bankrupt as if businessmen hate money. I've even been called "a filthy selfish aboriginal," and I can't take it anymore. How do I overcome this fear? I never had it as a boy. I ran around with my pants down, pushed girls over, and didn't care about anybodies moral reprisals for it. I love myself - but I've developed a malevolent human premise. John Tate

The ad makes me sick but I really don't see it as unethical. Just silly.

When I was a teenager I read his book "Stupid White Men," long before I really cared about politics. He used to at least be funny, and I always simply considered him a comedian. These days he is just pathetic and as always fallacious. Unlike Ted, I don't think he should be in jail. It would be good if people were more aware of logical and critical thought. Unfortunately people will watch this crap, and let it influence them and how they vote. However, the reign of the left in the 21st century is only beginning for most developed countries. When the ideas that are leading to insane economic policies come to their climax, inflation and poverty, I think most people will realise the disaster that they caused voting for empty rhetoric. It will ultimately come down to what they decide to do about it.

Yeah, the biggest problem is finding a way out of the nanny state and medicating myself into plato's fucking cave. I want to go to University, and I'd get in easily, but my parents simply would never get me student accommodation. I rent a house from my dad which just looks shithouse on a rental application. Most parents want their kids to move to where they can find some opportunity, my dad just constantly gets in my way to 'protect' me from it. I'm in a maze of a nanny state finding unable to get a life.

OL, I've noticed in this late phase of growing up that I might not even be gay. I can't even work it out - but I always know when I was a boy a man altruistically shared his penis with me on a constant basis. He got sent to jail, I got on with my life, but whenever something happened at school that I got blamed for and my mother didn't like she told the school I was sexually abused - for a concession. Consequently, I'd get bothered again and again about it. The things that got me in trouble were trying to work out how to get girls to do the things I did as a boy to work out. Of course, by high school when this starts happening, when I can ejaculate and start a reward process, I make mistakes with girls I am forced not to learn from in some blind attempt to make sure I don't put myself in a position of No Girlfriend. The contact with the girls is never really physical at that stage unless I make a grave error. These memories are from when I was about thirteen. To a point, I did well in school, but good grades came of avoiding psychologists for giving me a label and not just a socialist school system. Actually, I've had this armchair plan for too long that would 'stop it all' that suffers from a huge commie calculation problem. I didn't even see that, because I never saw the issue with altruism and trying to give people a dick to altruistically suck - or to altruistically suck theirs. Thus, I've become devoid of signal awareness, nobody told me there were signals and what you get is a man like me that lines up for permission. Nobody likes that and I suddenly see why, and use signals for everything else. I used to be able to get boyfriends because I was a junior geek on the Internet, and I'd find myself sucking up to them for a little training with electronics I can't buy and tools and I can't quite use - all pointless really - and I get raised into a pointless Greek Apprenticeship. What ends up happening with sexual abuse is it seems to manipulate a persons normal sexual preferences. Girls end up afraid of me, because I couldn't send a romantic signal but an alarm regarding a cock they've never seen. No psycholigist they sent me too could work that out. It is always the pragmatic advise that I need to avoid girls, and eventually a Freudian determinist says I am gay but repress it. I need to stop being a terrible person to other young girls around me, but there are not girls around me anymore. I can't seem to find the girl I want - because she is an engineer. The one love I had with a girl, she was into science, and all kinds of things. We were both young though and the relationship ultimately failed because I misunderstood the entire problem I had and decided I was gay. She wasn't the only girl, just the only one that really wanted me to make physical contact with her, the one with clear signals. However I never wanted her to just sit in University because I like build things and she likes to discover, and slowly writing this I find myself unwinding a mess of my own pragmatism - when what I really loved about that girl was her principles. That there were some, that someone knew I had a problem with signals and helped. I don't know if she respected this, because I couldn't rescue her from the pragmatism that killed our love as teens. I learned a lesson from this. I didn't know Atlas Shrugged then, and I didn't need it to understand that I am not John Galt. When it came along I was convinced I am gay because I treated Janey pragmatically, and really what comes down to it is altruism. I ended up going back to men to find an occupation that wasn't retarded in a backward nation, and when I found Ayn Rand I slowly shifted my preferences to a man that doesn't exist - only in a novel - that defined itself subjectively through a pragmatic shortcut. I read the essay ages ago, and I know the correct words are that I am not Dagny Taggart. Except it seems improper to equate her to something with a penis, which makes me pretty Objective, but rather ungay. I have to focus on finding value again, but as they say, there are so many fish in the sea. However it has been with a lot of pondering I think I've truly worked out my sexuality. What I've done is blinded myself to the gender that can work with me. I am never happy with a man, because I end up sucking dick for classes in a Greek apprenticeship. Bacchus can die, I am going to worship Apollo. It truly is like growing up in Apollo vs Dionysus - more than anything people who need to find principles the most with no help cannot and this cultural bankruptcy has left me feeling constantly defeated by my own errors trying to repeat others efforts - unable to find my own. The question now really is, how do I truly find self-esteem Objectively? I feel like poor programming like I used to but constantly find myself completely disgusted that all kinds of people treat me as if I am predetermined. It has made me rude lately at all the wrong people also, sorry about that. I keep making the mistake of seeing it myself. I can't anymore, what I've seen and failed to admit is that I am not gay and instead sacrificed my dignity over an error of identity.

It means that a state, if it issues its own money, must issue only gold or silver coin with which to pay its own debts. This put an end to State paper money (and minor coins). Remember that one of the arguments against the Federal Constitution was that the Federal government would assume the State debts from the War. Anti-federalists objected because the power of the purse put too much into the hands of the federal government ... which then sold bonds to pay off the state debts, of course... Finally, thar's gold in them thar hills! -- Georgia has naturally occurring gold, which is why they had a Federal Branch Mint -- but I'm that sure all of you already knew that. I learned from a recent article in Freedom Daily the publication of the Future of Freedom Foundation that the impetus for the creation of a federal govt after the surrender at Yorktown was that many debtors in the new states wanted the states to allow them to repay their loans with paper currency rather than gold and silver (which they had borrowed from their creditors) The creditors agitated for the creation of the Federal Government and the provisions in the Constitution to make nothing other than gold and silver coin legal tender and forbid expost facto laws which changed the content of the original contracts the debtors had signed. Or was it the Bills of Attainder also forbidden. Bet you didn't know that? www.campaignforliberty.com 17Mar 10:30PM 119958. 10:38 119999 gulch I suddenly feel a bit better about having the largely shittier aussie constitution that makes it extremely hard for the Government to change existing contracts. Pity the queen can land whenever she wants a veto anything the Government does.