Body and Context

[fight4thefuture]

There is a boy at my school who is a senior. We look awfully alike. People have even thought we were brothers. Since freshmen year I have felt a connection towards him, which I have neither fully understood nor been able to explain until now. I've always wanted to be friends with him, but we had little in common and never really had a pretext to talk.

I plan on writing a book one day on the role of physical appearance in self-conception and relationships with others to complement my work as a plastic surgeon.

My current thoughts are that the body is a context—your most immediate and intimate context. Universe, Solar System, Planet, Continent, Country, State, Town, Street, Building, Body. Universe and body are the two contexts which you are unable to escape. They are always applicable to us. You can't leave existence and you can't leave your body.

This line of thought does not lead to a mind-body dichotomy. It implicates that the mind needs the body as a context to function from and for. The actions of a young person and an old person, a slim person and a fat person need to be age and health appropriate. The conditions and capabilities of our bodies influence our decisions more than we notice. A conciousness without a body is not only impossible, but would make many, if not all, decisions impossible.

I feel a connection with the boy I mentioned because we look remarkably alike. While he is a different person, his body, which influences nearly every decision he makes, whether he knows it or not, resembles mine. This could also explain the mysterious connection felt between twins. It wouldn't quite explain racism, but it would explain racial affinity.

So, my question is, can the body be considered a context, or am I completely off the mark?

[Brant Gaede]

Julian,

I think you need more data. I think you should talk to the boy and compare notes. You are assuming this is all body similarities and it might be. It might also be he's the brother your parents never told you about. ("Mom, I've always wanted to ask you: who's been living in the guest house?")

--Brant

[Barbara Branden]

Julian, I think that, as you say, our physical appearance does play a role in forming our self-concept and in our relationships with others. But could you give a few examples to illustrate how you see that role? I want to be sure I understand you.

Barbara

[BaalChatzaf]

I feel a connection with the boy I mentioned because we look remarkably alike. While he is a different person, his body, which influences nearly every decision he makes, whether he knows it or not, resembles mine. This could also explain the mysterious connection felt between twins. It wouldn't quite explain racism, but it would explain racial affinity.

So, my question is, can the body be considered a context, or am I completely off the mark?

Could this be your Mirror Neurons at work?

Your basic observation is correct. We are embodied from birth to death. We can be nothing else. We cannot be Free Floating Minds, such as Arthur C. Clarke envisioned in -2001-. For starters we are meat. The question is, are we only meat?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[fight4thefuture]

Could you give a few examples to illustrate how you see that role?

Off-hand I can think of two more examples.

1. A few weeks ago a girl was giving a presentation to my history class. Probably out of boredom, I started to wonder what she would look like without her hair. It's hard to explain, but as I envisioned the unfamiliar contours of her head, I suddenly lost all conception of who she was. I had to say her name to myself and recount what I knew about her to reestablish our relationship. All of this took place in a matter of seconds.

2. Every morning I look into the mirror a final time before I go out. On most days, I'll see a healthy young man with nicely combed hair and a clean face. I'll remember the way I look that morning. Throughout my daily interactions, I will picture that healthy young man with nicely combed hair and a clean face imitating me like some sort of metaphysical pantomime. Later in the day, at school, I'll go to the bathroom and quickly glance into the mirror as I'm washing up. I may look a little more tired than I thought. In fact, I might look a little sick. My self-image is instantly reevaluated to fit what I am seeing. Accompanying each reevaluation is an emotional evaluation, either satisfaction or disappointment. I am disappointed this time. Nonetheless, the mirror had served a deep psychological need of mine. I walk away feeling more confident than before.

[kiaer.ts]

This is a very sketchy essay for an original thought I have entertained for some time about body as the given.

http://realrightrand.blogspot.com/2008/08/...y-as-given.html

[Guyau]

Ted,

Nice.

The following good books pertain to your topic:

The Body and the Self

Bermudez, Marcel, and Eilan, editors

MIT 1995

http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/defau...=2&tid=5728

The Body in the Mind

Mark Johnson

Chicago 1987

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/me...p;bookkey=61757

The Meaning of the Body

Mark Johnson

Chicago 2007

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/me...;bookkey=227477

Past, Space, and Self

John Campbell

MIT 1995

http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/defau...=2&tid=5405

The Threefold Cord: Mind, Body, and World

Hilary Putnam

Columbia 1999

http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-102...-threefold-cord

[Reidy]

You might also check out the writings of Hubert Dreyfus, e.g. What Computers Can't Do. He's a philosopher at UC Berkeley and cites such considerations as part of an argument that a physically embodied mind is a requirement of true awareness and that computers don't meet this condition. This is apparently standard stuff among phenomenologists, but I have to take his word for it.

Dreyfus phrases things as if he intended to be maximally offensive to Objectivists, but bear with him.

[kiaer.ts]

Wow! This is the reason to post on Objectivist fora - you sometimes learn new things. I have put all those books in my basket at abebooks.com. Thanks!

[fight4thefuture]

Wow! This is the reason to post on Objectivist fora - you sometimes learn new things. I have put all those books in my basket at abebooks.com. Thanks!

Ditto.

Thanks for all the references guys. I got a little creative in my own research. I read The Invisible Man. Right now, I'm reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dorian Gray is next! I also saw The Phantom of the Opera in NYC a few days ago for my early b-day present. I'd have to say it's my favorite play. It definitely evoked some deep thoughts and feelings from me, and strengthened my desire to be a plastic surgeon.

I'll enjoy checking out the other books listed on this thread.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Julian

[Reidy]

This is off the subject, but you allude to something that I've wondered about. The great ugly-outside-but-beautiful-within stories seem all to come from France. You named two, plus The Man Who Laughs, Cyrano and Beauty and the Beast. I have no idea what the significance of this, if any, is.

Dorian Gray is just the opposite, and The Invisible Man avoids the question altogether.

[fight4thefuture]

This is off the subject, but you allude to something that I've wondered about. The great ugly-outside-but-beautiful-within stories seem all to come from France. You named two, plus The Man Who Laughs, Cyranoand Beauty and the Beast. I have no idea what the significance of this, if any, is.

Dorian Gray is just the opposite, and The Invisible Man avoids the question altogether.

I've wondered the same exact thing.

I forgot to add I Will Fear No Evil, which is about an old, dying man who has his brain transplanted into the body of a beautiful, young woman. :thumbsup: Robert Heinlein isn't French, but he won 4 Hugo awards, named after famed science fiction writer Hugo Gernsback, who was born in Luxembourg, which borders France. Could be pure coincidence though.

[Mindy Newton]

Wow! This is the reason to post on Objectivist fora - you sometimes learn new things. I have put all those books in my basket at abebooks.com. Thanks!

Ditto.

Thanks for all the references guys. I got a little creative in my own research. I read The Invisible Man. Right now, I'm reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dorian Gray is next! I also saw The Phantom of the Opera in NYC a few days ago for my early b-day present. I'd have to say it's my favorite play. It definitely evoked some deep thoughts and feelings from me, and strengthened my desire to be a plastic surgeon.

I'll enjoy checking out the other books listed on this thread.

As you are so kindly allowing strangers to analyze your psyche, would you mind telling me how you settled on being a plastic surgeon?

--Mindy

[Brant Gaede]

Wow! This is the reason to post on Objectivist fora - you sometimes learn new things. I have put all those books in my basket at abebooks.com. Thanks!

Ditto.

Thanks for all the references guys. I got a little creative in my own research. I read The Invisible Man. Right now, I'm reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dorian Gray is next! I also saw The Phantom of the Opera in NYC a few days ago for my early b-day present. I'd have to say it's my favorite play. It definitely evoked some deep thoughts and feelings from me, and strengthened my desire to be a plastic surgeon.

I'll enjoy checking out the other books listed on this thread.

As you are so kindly allowing strangers to analyze your psyche, would you mind telling me how you settled on being a plastic surgeon?

--Mindy

Read his posts first. He only has 27.

--Brant

[Mindy Newton]

Wow! This is the reason to post on Objectivist fora - you sometimes learn new things. I have put all those books in my basket at abebooks.com. Thanks!

Ditto.

Thanks for all the references guys. I got a little creative in my own research. I read The Invisible Man. Right now, I'm reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dorian Gray is next! I also saw The Phantom of the Opera in NYC a few days ago for my early b-day present. I'd have to say it's my favorite play. It definitely evoked some deep thoughts and feelings from me, and strengthened my desire to be a plastic surgeon.

I'll enjoy checking out the other books listed on this thread.

As you are so kindly allowing strangers to analyze your psyche, would you mind telling me how you settled on being a plastic surgeon?

--Mindy

Read his posts first. He only has 27.

--Brant

OK, I read his posts. I read that he wants to see beauty in the world. I see that plastic surgery might be a choice related to that sentiment, but so would a lot of others. It's not important, I don't mean to pry, if it is very personal.

--Mindy

[fight4thefuture]

Wow! This is the reason to post on Objectivist fora - you sometimes learn new things. I have put all those books in my basket at abebooks.com. Thanks!

Ditto.

Thanks for all the references guys. I got a little creative in my own research. I read The Invisible Man. Right now, I'm reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dorian Gray is next! I also saw The Phantom of the Opera in NYC a few days ago for my early b-day present. I'd have to say it's my favorite play. It definitely evoked some deep thoughts and feelings from me, and strengthened my desire to be a plastic surgeon.

I'll enjoy checking out the other books listed on this thread.

As you are so kindly allowing strangers to analyze your psyche, would you mind telling me how you settled on being a plastic surgeon?

--Mindy

Looking back, I probably wouldn't have started this thread, but I don't think it is possible to analyze my psyche based on the limited information I've given you.

Like Brant said, I think I've given some general reasons on here before. They're not my definitive reasons though. Those I would not simply share with strangers.

OK, I read his posts. I read that he wants to see beauty in the world. I see that plastic surgery might be a choice related to that sentiment, but so would a lot of others. It's not important, I don't mean to pry, if it is very personal.

--Mindy

Even a garbage man can make the world more beautiful by clearing trash off the streets. I think it is a sentiment involved in many professions.

Writers make words beautiful. Musicians make sound beautiful. Embalmers make the dead beautiful. I want to make people beautiful.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Julian

[Barbara Branden]

Ted, I can't tell you what a favor you've done me. I went to your web site, as you suggested in your post #6 -- and then began looking around in the site. I discovered your link to Orson Welles' old radio series, Mercury Theater, and I'm in the process of delightedly dowloading all of the shows. When I was a child, I insisted on getting permission from my parents to stay up until 9:30 Sunday evenings, in order to listen to Mercury Theater; I was entranced by Welles' wonderful plays and by his magnificent speaking voice. That Sunday evening half-hour was one of the highlights of my week, which nothing could have persuaded me to miss. And now I have it back. Many, many thanks.

Barbara

[kiaer.ts]

My great pleasure, Barbara. I like the idea of "paying it forward" when this means disseminating value. In this case, you can think of it as a small repayment of the values you have provided me through your work over the years - at least I shall. I certainly wouldn't mind if you would post a comment there, as a form of celebrity endorsement. I find myself blushing...

[Barbara Branden]

Ted: "I certainly wouldn't mind if you would post a comment there, as a form of celebrity endorsement."

Done, with pleasure.

Barbara