Awesome Heroic Sculpture by Living Artist

[BaalChatzaf]

A few months ago I made friends with the artist of this work, Peter Schipperheyn. http://www.users.bigpond.com/SCHIP/index.htm It's great to connect with colleague and share experiences.

I think art is our greatest medium to crystallize what it is that we live for. I am afraid that most people never connect what they live for to art.

Michael

I figured it out! The Bronze Dude is about to sneeze.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Ellen Stuttle]

I don't know if you saw it, but there is a page on Schipperheyn's site which shows a couple of frontal views:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/SCHIP/zarathu.htm

I'd only glanced at the top of that page earlier, hadn't had time to read the whole thing. I've now read the full text. I'm pretty fascinated by what Schipperheyn says, given the depths of connection of the Zarathustrian image, via Nietzsche, to Jung's struggles with the idea of God. Zarathustra is a figure whose dualities I have heard discussed at length over the years.

Judging from the artist's descriptions, the duality between your and my interpretations is intended:

[...] to me this figure expresses [an] essential dualism, a push and pull, an inner struggle.

Sometimes I imagined him as the young "Zarathustra" from an ancient land, standing before time and before all of creation, powerful yet vulnerable, in this beautiful mystery that we experience as life.

Also, about the legs: I've caught up to something I didn't discern from the photo Michael linked: the right foot is somewhat raised; this accounts for the look of the knee which was bothering me. It isn't a hamstrungness of the tendons; it's because the foot isn't completely resting on the ground.

More tomorrow if I get time. (Tonight was the second in a series of presentations my husband is giving on "Critical Thinking about Global Warming Issues." Thursday is going to be the trickiest of the three presentations this week, since it will be for a general university audience, and a certain number of persons fanatically of the AGW persuasion are expected to attend.)

Ellen

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Edited October 23, 2007 by Ellen Stuttle

[Jonathan]

I'd only glanced at the top of that page earlier, hadn't had time to read the whole thing. I've now read the full text. I'm pretty fascinated by what Schipperheyn says, given the depths of connection of the Zarathustrian image, via Nietzsche, to Jung's struggles with the idea of God. Zarathustra is a figure whose dualities I have heard discussed at length over the years.

Judging from the artist's descriptions, the duality between your and my interpretations is intended:

[...] to me this figure expresses [an] essential dualism, a push and pull, an inner struggle.

Sometimes I imagined him as the young "Zarathustra" from an ancient land, standing before time and before all of creation, powerful yet vulnerable, in this beautiful mystery that we experience as life.

I could see the figure as being "powerful yet vulnerable," or at least as having the capacity for power once he leaves his current vulnerable state -- the athletic physique implies power to me, but the pose overrides it.

Btw, a closer look at the figure's face seems to reveal a look of something like worry, neediness, uncertainty or incomprehension:

Also, about the legs: I've caught up to something I didn't discern from the photo Michael linked: the right foot is somewhat raised; this accounts for the look of the knee which was bothering me. It isn't a hamstrungness of the tendons; it's because the foot isn't completely resting on the ground.

The slight lift of the foot is a part of the problem that I have with the figure. I think it's a little awkward. It's one of the elements which makes me agree more with Dragonfly than Michael because it adds to the instability or vulnerability (which implies to me that the figure is steeling himself from a position of need).

I was also thinking a little about SOLOP's Lance's view that the figure implies "potential kinetic energy." It doesn't to me. It's not a wound spring, but one that needs winding. It's seeking energy or spiritual strength. As far as a figure expressing "potential energy" is concerned, I envision the typical pose of an an athlete on the field or court prepared "to roll" ("it's time to roll" is how Michael says he felt while in the statue's pose). A batter waiting to swing, a tennis player ready to serve or return a serve, a basketball or soccer player prepared to attack or defend a goal, or a boxer about to strike, all basically share a common pose that is the opposite of that of the statue. In that common athletic pose, the hips are not thrust forward but pushed back a little, the head is not flung backward but is instead somewhat forward and lowered (a sense of prowl). That is readiness, strength and "potential energy" or a "wound spring," and the opposite of vulnerability and need.

More tomorrow if I get time. (Tonight was the second in a series of presentations my husband is giving on "Critical Thinking about Global Warming Issues." Thursday is going to be the trickiest of the three presentations this week, since it will be for a general university audience, and a certain number of persons fanatically of the AGW persuasion are expected to attend.)

Let me know if you or Larry ever need to borrow a shotgun for his presentations.

J

Edited October 23, 2007 by Jonathan

[Ellen Stuttle]

J, next week (I hope)...too much on tap this week. I have come to think that my initial reaction, viz., a not-quite-successful attempt at a "major Eureka experience," is off the mark and that instead it might be a successful attempt at something much more complicated.

E.g., this from you:

I could see the figure as being "powerful yet vulnerable," or at least as having the capacity for power once he leaves his current vulnerable state -- the athletic physique implies power to me, but the pose overrides it.

Btw, a closer look at the figure's face seems to reveal a look of something like worry, neediness, uncertainty or incomprehension:

This is seeming right to me. I'm being interested by the progression of my thoughts/reactions, but there's too much else on my mind for me to try to describe the development just now.

Thanks for the shotgun offer re Larry's presentations. The first two went marvelously well, no need of a "shotgun." There are advance signs, though, of a less hospitable reaction to Thursday's gig. ;-)

E-

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[Jonathan]

This is seeming right to me. I'm being interested by the progression of my thoughts/reactions, but there's too much else on my mind for me to try to describe the development just now.

I think the cautiousness of my use of "seems" and your use of "seeming" should be emphasized. The face does seem to be showing a wearied or worried expression, but then again we're looking at very low-resolution images, and the fact that the head in the image on the right that I posted above is sprued/gated could be enhancing the wearied/worried appearance -- the wrinkled, fretful brow could be partially a trick of light and sprue shadows. I don't think it is, but it's too bad that there aren't better photos of the sculpture available so that we could get a good look at the face and be sure.

J

[Dragonfly]

Ah, but you see, I did experiment -- and with a variety of similar poses. My experienced report doesn't agree with yours. ;-)

Hmmm.. did you bend backwards far enough? With your chin higher than your forehead? I'd like to see some photos as evidence...

[Ellen Stuttle]

Hmmm.. did you bend backwards far enough? With your chin higher than your forehead? I'd like to see some photos as evidence...

You might be getting an inaccurate idea of the relative height of chin and forehead because the figure does have a beard. I don't. ;-) But bending the back far enough so the chin is somewhat higher than the forehead isn't hard for me, though I haven't near a dancer's flexibility. I more than occasionally stretch by bending that far, only not with the hands in the position shown, instead with the arms stretched out and assisting the bend.

Ellen

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[BaalChatzaf]

Ah, but you see, I did experiment -- and with a variety of similar poses. My experienced report doesn't agree with yours. ;-)

Hmmm.. did you bend backwards far enough? With your chin higher than your forehead? I'd like to see some photos as evidence...

Well I tried it! I am sending you the bill from my chiropractor!

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Dragonfly]

The yellow lines demarcate the position of the forehead. He wouldn't have much of a chin if it didn't come higher than the upper line. The black line indicates the angle of the forehead, so you could also use that as a reference...

I more than occasionally stretch by bending that far, only not with the hands in the position shown, instead with the arms stretched out and assisting the bend.

But that is exactly the point! I have no doubt that you can bend backwards that far, but if you do that with the hands in the position shown, without help of the moment generated by your stretched arms (and don't forget to lift the right heel a bit), you'll observe that this is a quite uncomfortable and labile position, which is particularly unsuited to initiating action.

[Dragonfly]

Well I tried it! I am sending you the bill from my chiropractor!

I decline all responsibility. I didn't ask you to do this!

[Ellen Stuttle]

I have no doubt that you can bend backwards that far, but if you do that with the hands in the position shown, without help of the moment generated by your stretched arms (and don't forget to lift the right heel a bit), you'll observe that this is a quite uncomfortable and labile position, which is particularly unsuited to initiating action.

Was I claiming that it was suited to initiating action? It was the guy who was quoted from SOLO who said that. What I was arguing against was the idea that it was a posture of supplication. I now think that there is an aspect of supplication -- or rather of, well, yes, something to do with forces greater than oneself -- in the pose. Actually, at this moment, I think I know very well from direct experience, something which has happened in the last few days, what the emotional state is. But I don't want to say yet, until I hear further news. So I'll provocatively leave it at that...

Ellen

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Edited October 24, 2007 by Ellen Stuttle

[Newberry]

I grew up with tennis players.

I once worked with a model, in very good shape, who felt uncomfortable exposing his stomach--it was very difficult to work him, because the pose I wanted, and that I feel extremely comfortable with, was stretching backwards while reclining. So, I cannot account for dragonfly's emotional response to the pose.

Michael

[Philip Coates]

In the case of Serena? Williams here, clutching her U.S. Open? tennis trophy, it's the combination of things that makes the emotion and joy quite clear...the trophy clutching and the big smile, not just bending over backwards.

The problem with some of the other things we've seen is that just pure bending isn't doing it. That alone (unless done very carefully) is cliched posing. Has to be carefully integrated with other things.

[Newberry]

In the case of Serena? Williams here, clutching her U.S. Open? tennis trophy, it's the combination of things that makes the emotion and joy quite clear...the trophy clutching and the big smile, not just bending over backwards.

The problem with some of the other things we've seen is that just pure bending isn't doing it. That alone (unless done very carefully) is cliched posing. Has to be carefully integrated with other things.

Venus at Wimbledon.

Phil, I think you make a mistake about this whole issue. I am showing you a brand new work, of monumental sculpture, by a guy who cruises through anatomy like cutting butter. The proportions are superb. The detailing beautifully refined and finished. He's got both hands, feet, and all the digits. Jonathan will confirm that hands and feet are difficult and time consuming, won't you Jonathan? The work is thematic. There is a passionate aspect to it. It has a powerful abstract design, by the arc in the body. In a word, it as it all.

Aristophanes as said that "high thoughts must have high language." Peter, the artist, expresses his ideals and he is a master of all the key components of carving, in his marble sculptures, and sculpting.

Calling something a cliche is another way to criticize without knowing any better.

Michael

Edited October 25, 2007 by Newberry

[Jonathan]

The proportions are superb. The detailing beautifully refined and finished. He's got both hands, feet, and all the digits. Jonathan will confirm that hands and feet are difficult and time consuming, won't you Jonathan?

Yes, all of what Schipperheyn is doing is time-consuming and difficult. As I've said, I think he's very talented.

J

[Dragonfly]

In the case of Serena? Williams here, clutching her U.S. Open? tennis trophy, it's the combination of things that makes the emotion and joy quite clear...the trophy clutching and the big smile, not just bending over backwards.

And religious attitude: as a devout Jehova Witness she's probably thanking God here for her victory.

[BaalChatzaf]

In the case of Serena? Williams here, clutching her U.S. Open? tennis trophy, it's the combination of things that makes the emotion and joy quite clear...the trophy clutching and the big smile, not just bending over backwards.

And religious attitude: as a devout Jehova Witness she's probably thanking God here for her victory.

God works in mysterious ways, Her wonders to perform.

Ba'al Chatzarf

[Ellen Stuttle]

In the case of Serena? Williams here, clutching her U.S. Open? tennis trophy, it's the combination of things that makes the emotion and joy quite clear...the trophy clutching and the big smile, not just bending over backwards.

And religious attitude: as a devout Jehova Witness she's probably thanking God here for her victory.

Which "she"? Newberry said:

Venus at Wimbledon.

I don't follow tennis. I've heard both of their names but don't know what either looks like, or anything about either of them except that they're both tennis players. Is Venus a JW?

In any case, that picture most certainly doesn't look to me like anything but jubilation -- sheer victory glee.

Ellen

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[Philip Coates]

> The proportions are superb. The detailing beautifully refined and finished. He's got both hands, feet, and all the digits. Jonathan will confirm that hands and feet are difficult and time consuming, won't you Jonathan? The work is thematic. There is a passionate aspect to it. [Michael Newberry]

Michael, you make some excellent points.

And, reflecting a bit more on it after reading what you point out, those achievements are so unusual --- the serious, detailed, conscientious study or and focus on realism in regard to the body + (as you point out) the emotional seriousness and passion --- in today's nihilisitic, unserious, and sloppy age that I should probably consider the things that I didn't like as relatively minor.

[Newberry]

> The proportions are superb. The detailing beautifully refined and finished. He's got both hands, feet, and all the digits. Jonathan will confirm that hands and feet are difficult and time consuming, won't you Jonathan? The work is thematic. There is a passionate aspect to it. [Michael Newberry]

Michael, you make some excellent points.

And, reflecting a bit more on it after reading what you point out, those achievements are so unusual --- the serious, detailed, conscientious study or and focus on realism in regard to the body + (as you point out) the emotional seriousness and passion --- in today's nihilisitic, unserious, and sloppy age that I should probably consider the things that I didn't like as relatively minor.

Phil,

I can't believe this!!! Am I reading correctly? Quick, before you delete your last post, let's toast some champagne! And after Jonathan's comment:

Yes, all of what Schipperheyn is doing is time-consuming and difficult. As I've said, I think he's very talented.

he can have some champagne too, and he won't even have to lick it off his face. (Don't worry Jonathan I am aware of what you didn't say.) Ellen, can guide the appreciation lecture, Kat and Michael can stare in awe at the sculpture, and Dragonfly can be the waiter.

Michael

[Jonathan]

Well, then, here's to Peter Schipperheyn's talents! Cheers!

J

P.S. Now that we're all loosened up from mimicking the statue's pose and from drinking champagne, let's all get naked and do the limbo!

[Brant Gaede]

There is great talent in that statue. But I DON'T LIKE IT! If I owned it I'd probably use it for target practice.

--Brant

[Philip Coates]

> let's toast some champagne

drink up, but don't bend over too far backwards in triumphant joyful ecstasy

[whoisdagny]

I'm surprised no one has commented on his gestures - Can anyone explain what he is doing with his hands? I'm not familiar with what it's supposed to symbolize.

Also, the ribcage makes the man look starved and a bit emaciated. I can't get over the uncomfortable sense that this statue's somehow depicting the weakness of man. Otherwise, I do appreciate the size of the statue - large enough to show 'grandness' but small enough for the human eye to take in its entirety while standing at a close range.

[Newberry]

> let's toast some champagne

drink up, but don't bend over too far backwards in triumphant joyful ecstasy

hahahaha, I will be sure to lift a heel, or three, in the process. ;)