Theocracy threat in American politics? How?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Nearly half of Americans uncertain God exists: poll

Time for a reality check with a little empirical evidence.

According to a Harris Poll, half of the Americans polled said they were unsure if God exists.

I have no qualms with those who wish to vote based on their morality, but Objectivists who have painted a scenario of doom about the imminent threat of a theocracy taking over American politics through the Republican Party forgot to take into account the American people. With half of them in doubt about the existence of God, I see no way on earth for a theocracy, imposing theocratic policies on the country, to survive in high office in Washington without being tarred and feathered.

From the looks of things, rational ideas are spreading and the world is actually getting better. America is, at least.

So where is America perishing in an orgy of what?

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Michael; With all due respect I'm suspicous. Polls always have belief in God at over 90%. I am wary of all polls these days and on this subject I would like to see a second one. I hope the report is true.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Chris,

I do admit that half of the Americans polled, not half of all Americans, answered with a doubt about the existence of God. Here is the last line from the above article:

The survey was conducted online between October 4 and 10 among 2,010 US adults.

I have no idea what criteria were used for selecting the people polled, although the quality of the company leads me to believe that the criteria were well-thought-out. Also, the poll did not claim half were atheists, merely that they had doubts about the existence of God. That doesn't preclude believing in God.

The low number should not make us dismiss the results. Harris is a multinational corporation, very capitalist and has a reputation to uphold (to stay in business) which a bogus or extremely careless poll would damage.

Here is the opening paragraph from Harris Poll Online:

Policy makers, business leaders and the media rely on the Harris Poll to produce accurate, reliable information on topics as diverse as our participants. In fact, the Harris Poll has surveyed millions of people from more than 80 countries in the past 45 years.

Also, I got this from The Drudge Report, so it is at least from a reliable news source.

I do agree more polls would be useful.

Still, people who believe in God and simultaneously openly doubt that belief do not accept dogmatic theocratic decrees coming down from on high. I stand by my tar and feather remark.

And I still think the world is not perishing from an orgy of anything, much less a theocracy. The human population is about 6.5 billion and growing. Life spans are growing too, the world over.

Michael

[BAMF]

I was actually going to do a report studying theocracy in America. Apparently it's not relevant though. *pouts* Interesting poll, although it's hard for me to believe. Maybe because I'm in Missouri.

[reason.on]

Nearly half of Americans uncertain God exists: poll

Time for a reality check with a little empirical evidence.

According to a Harris Poll, half of the Americans polled said they were unsure if God exists.

I have no qualms with those who wish to vote based on their morality, but Objectivists who have painted a scenario of doom about the imminent threat of a theocracy taking over American politics through the Republican Party forgot to take into account the American people. With half of them in doubt about the existence of God, I see no way on earth for a theocracy, imposing theocratic policies on the country, to survive in high office in Washington without being tarred and feathered.

From the looks of things, rational ideas are spreading and the world is actually getting better. America is, at least.

So where is America perishing in an orgy of what?

As I have attempted to demonstrate on another thread, if there is any threat what-so-ever to be considered with regard to America becoming something a rational man could call a "theocracy" (which, I do not think there is), it does not come exclusively, nor even most potently from "Republicans".

I predict that over the next 20 years the "Democrats" will come to look more and more like this:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call...ress/index.html

...over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

You need to come to church in the first place precisely because you are first of this world, not apart from it. You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away - because you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.

http://www.fordfortennessee.com/index.php?...&Itemid=149

I believe that my faith mirrors the principles on which our nation was founded: equality, dignity, tolerance and freedom. These ideas formed the bedrock on which the founding fathers based their claim to independence, and these are the same lessons that Jesus preaches in the Gospel. The separation of church and state is not an order for lawmakers to ignore their faith or to banish their values. Instead, it is a command for tolerance, to recognize that not all of us share the same beliefs or worship the same god and to respect those differences.

And so, I will continue to be guided by my faith in the Senate. I will continue, as the Reverend Jim Wallis has eloquently stated, to follow my personal ethics to promote social justice:

Interestingly enough, I believe Ford has actually said that "Democrats love Jesus more than Republicans". With this transformation of individual Democrats and the platform, the socialism and material control that most Democratic politicians typically push for will experience a powerful populist revival and be fueled by spiritual and moral calls to Jesus--making religiously fueled socialism the greatest internal obstacle we will face in attempting to persuade Americans to embrace a more rational and libertarian system of governance.

I do not believe that America faces a crisis of "theocracy" (in fact, I think the suggestion is totally absurd), however, as proponents of individual liberty, we ought to be quite wary of the growing admix of religion and socialism.

If I am right in this analysis, socialism is about to make like Jesus, and rise from the scrap heap of history.

RCR

Edited November 1, 2006 by R. Christian Ross

[Chris Grieb]

R Christian Ross; What a great post. I think an altruistic and Christian justification for socialism is going to be used. While my limited exposure to Evangilcals suggest they have some distrust of government programs they might still be willing to accept them. I could not reflect that in 1965 LBJ said the USA was going to be the first nation to unite faith and reason.

[Rich Engle]

Fundamentalism is in fact a tangible threat, mainly because they are savant lobbyists, and are able to mobilize their minions quickly.

Even other Christians are twitchy. You might not agree with everything here, but take a look at the Christian Alliance for Progress site, there is good information there about what the fundies are doing in politics:

www.christianalliance.org

[Victor Pross]

Science and religion represent two great systems of human thought. For the majority of people, however, religion is the dominate influence over the conduct of their affairs. The fact of declining church attendance in the prevailing world does not disapprove or discredit the power of religion’s control of modern man. If the church is ignored today is not because science and rationality has finally won out its age-old battle—it’s just that the “biblical perspective” of the world now seems totally irrelevant.

As a result, many disillusioned believers have turned to “fringe” religions that seem more in tune with an era of Star Wars and microchips. We live in a world that, in spite of appearances, is still fundamentally religious. The huge rise in popularity of cults associated with UFOs, ESP, spirit contacts, scientology, transcendental meditation and other technology-based beliefs testifies to the continued persuasiveness of faith and dogma in a superficial rational and scientific society.

People are on a never ending quest to find meaning and happiness in their lives, and in that quest they will take a detour down religious roads—in whatever form that “religion” takes--old or new and improved. It's here to stay.

[Rich Engle]

I always mention it, might as well do it again here-- Ken Wilber did a great job attempting an integration of science and religion in his book "The Marriage of Sense and Spirit."

Yes, it is here to stay. But, there are things that religion needs to lose in order to be what it is supposed to be.

I am convinced that science and spirituality can in fact coexist peacefully, and productively. But, there is so much damage in the form of fundamentalist facism, worldwide. Those people, they do not represent what true spiritual sentiment is. The boiling point is higher than ever, and worse yet now the fundamentalists (I do not limit, by any means, that word to Christian fundamentalism; a fundamentist is a fundamentalist, and very often that means of the violent, fascist type) have leveraged, hypocritically as Hell, science and technology for their purposes.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Rich Engle

[Judith]

I always mention it, might as well do it again here-- Ken Wilber did a great job attempting an integration of science and religion in his book "The Marriage of Sense and Spirit."

Yes, it is here to stay. But, there are things that religion needs to lose in order to be what it is supposed to be.

Didn't Wilber say something to the effect that people, in trying to deal with their inchoate feelings, tend to go backwards and abandon rationality in an attempt to satisfy these feelings instead of doing the necessary work to understand them? Plunging in to the pre-rational as opposed to moving into the trans-rational?

Judith

[Rich Engle]

I think that's pretty much the gist of what he said, yes indeed!

And, that those critical of religion sometimes don't even recognize practicioners who are pointed at the transrational; it's like it doesn't exist even on paper...

[Kat]

I would have like to have seen the questions asked on this. I suppose if you asked the average guy or gal on the street if they were 100% absolutely certain, without any possible doubt that God exists, you are not going to get a whole lot of affirmatives. The existence of God simply cannot be proven so there will always be doubts.

I do think that the vast majority of Americans identify themselves with some type of faith or believe in some type of supreme being or life force. Outside of Objectivism I know of very few atheists or agnostics. Maybe they are all still in the closet or something.

Even if the proportion of believers is something like 90%, I think mixing religion with politics makes Americans very uncomfortable and no matter how much noise the religious right makes, they are a very vocal minority. Freedom loving Americans will not give the church power over their government.

Kat

[Victor Pross]

Nearly half of Americans uncertain God exists: poll

I doubt the truthfullness of this poll. I don't see it. Since 9/11 the American psyche has been damaged. There is now a vulnerability there that was not as pronounced before. You can feel it in the air: you see it on the news and talk shows, hear it in the politicians, and hear it in conversations. There is a rush to suppress anything that might not ring of solidarity to nation and god and apple pie. The Dixie Chicks fiasco is a fine illustration. Protect our children and heritage by not uttering truths better kept hidden. This is America...as it decides to be. History teaches it's natural for the body politic to become comfortable with such reactionary tactics at the price of individual freedom.

Edited November 6, 2006 by Victor Pross