Weird News about Ayn Rand and Objectivism

[Jon Letendre]

1 minute ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Well, we all know Hillary Clinton is just like Ayn Rand, right?

That’s not constructive. You know I think no such thing.

[Jon Letendre]

Is that message about the better people in Rand’s work, or no?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

8 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

That’s not constructive. You know I think no such thing.

Could have fooled me.

On 3/9/2020 at 9:52 AM, Jon Letendre said:

If Mises did not misunderstand Rand then the author who said Clinton’s winning GDP-vote comments were Rand-like did not misunderstand Rand, either.

Here's the title of the article by that author.

On 3/6/2020 at 3:14 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

How Hillary Clinton Is Like Ayn Rand

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

3 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Could have fooled me.

Here's the title of the article by that author.

Michael

Then you are terribly easy, beyond comprehension easy, to fool.

You call this discussing ideas?

Is that message in her work or does Mises hear voices in her work that are not there?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

8 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

Then you are terribly easy, beyond comprehension easy, to fool.

Why are you going personal again?

 

I'm not the poo-poo head.

You're the poo-poo head.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

People interested in ideas clarify their words when they detect misunderstandings.

Poo-poo heads call others names instead.

btw - Notice that Jon did not clarify anything re his defense of Hillary Clinton being like Ayn Rand. He just does it, then say he doesn't. Then starts mocking and kindergarten games.

The good part is that I think mocking and kindergarten games are fun.  

[Brant Gaede]

Well, there's John Galt on top of the human mountain and just below him are the rest of her heroes, all inferior or less than him.

---Brant

"inferior" just doesn't strike me as Randian phraseology

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

2 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

"inferior" just doesn't strike me as Randian phraseology

Brant,

Ballast works.

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

Is the message about the better people in her work, Michael?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

17 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

Is the message about the better people in her work, Michael?

Jon,

I wish you would read my posts more carefully.

Of course it is in her work and I mentioned it. I mentioned it several times in this very thread. 

I also mentioned that she did that one way in her earlier Nietzschean days, and added qualifications later.

Long posts.

Some really long posts.

Read them and you will see for yourself. Yet you want to act as if I didn't write that. And you want to correct me about it, at that. Then you wonder why I do what I do.

Here's an idea.

Go back to talking smack about Jennifer Grossman. She's an easier target for smack talk games. Notice that even when you do it over at the TAS places, she doesn't talk back.

That's something, no?

And, by the way, if you feel attracted to her, I suggest a different approach. Just sayin'.  

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Epstein calls the James Taggart folks (the Democrat winners) "the producers" and he calls the looted folks "the takers."

Michael,

Uh-uh.  Epstein is saying that that's what Hillary Clinton is calling the respective groups.  He's favorable to the "forgotten Americans" and is denigrating Clinton's viewing them as "takers."  I'm not sure if he understands that Rand would not have approved of the crony capitalists.  He calls Clinton's remarks a "bizarre strand of Ayn Randism."  Does that mean he knows that Clinton's views are only a semblance of Rand's connecting honestly acquired wealth with virtue, or not?  I can't tell from the brief text.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

2 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Now do the stupidity of Ludwig Von Mises for finding the same message in Rand that Epstein finds.

Von Mises did not think that Rand would have considered crony capitalists virtuous - if that's what Epstein thinks Rand would have thought.  Or put it a different way:  Von Mises wouldn't have thought that Rand made a simple equation: wealth = virtue.

Ellen 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

6 minutes ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Michael,

Uh-uh.  Epstein is saying that that's what Hillary Clinton is calling the respective groups.  He's favorable to the "forgotten Americans" and is denigrating Clinton's viewing them as "takers."  I'm not sure if he understands that Rand would not have approved of the crony capitalists.  He calls Clinton's remarks a "bizarre strand of Ayn Randism."  Does that mean he knows that Clinton's views are only a semblance of Rand's connecting honestly acquired wealth with virtue, or not?  I can't tell from the brief text.

Ellen

Ellen,

I seriously doubt Epstein is a friend of Ayn Rand. And, ditto for President Trump.

He's a Bill Kristol crony. So if he seems a bit tame, I believe he's laying low.

(I skimmed a bit on Google about him just to get a gist and, so far, it's mixed messages galore.)

His bio on The Washington Examiner:

Ethan Epstein

Quote

Ethan Epstein was an associate editor of The Weekly Standard. He has also written for Politico Magazine, the Wall Street Journal, Slate, City Journal, and other publications. He holds a B.A. in history from Reed College.

Granted, this is only a first impression of mine, so I might change. But right now, to me, he's on the James Taggart side.

And that means I do not give him the benevolent interpretation you do re Rand. I don't grok the criticism of Clinton you do in that article. I mean, he may not like Clinton, that's clear enough, but not because she's the opposite of Rand. In fact, the "bizarre strand of Ayn Randism" in Clinton is what he objects to. That's the way I read it.

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Jon,

I wish you would read my posts more carefully.

Of course it is in her work and I mentioned it. I mentioned it several times in this very thread. 

I also mentioned that she did that one way in her earlier Nietzschean days, and added qualifications later.

Long posts.

Some really long posts.

Read them and you will see for yourself. Yet you want to act as if I didn't write that. And you want to correct me about it, at that. Then you wonder why I do what I do.

Here's an idea.

Go back to talking smack about Jennifer Grossman. She's an easier target for smack talk games. Notice that even when you do it over at the TAS places, she doesn't talk back.

That's something, no?

And, by the way, if you feel attracted to her, I suggest a different approach. Just sayin'.  

Michael

I definitely don’t want to talk about you anymore, I was only attracted to her while I thought she was on board with Q, as recorded at qmap.pub, which web site she commented was “true” on an Atlas Society Instagram post. That was almost the only talking back she ever graced me with. Once she thanked me and a guy (in Spain, I think) for the level of discussion about the contrast of what Rand meant by socialism (private property banned) and what most people today all around the world mean by socialism (generous social support programs): “You guys Rock!”

And I posted nice things, at first, both at the Atlas page and on her personal page, as well. Only silence from her. I do criticize very hard at the Atlas page, because it sucks and fucks everything up. In Rand’s name. That will always lead to harsh criticism from me, no changing that.

On her personal page I was very polite. Mostly I did not comment, just heart liked the pics. She never liked one of my pics. The worst thing I ever did there was to comment on one of her poser posts. She’s in India at a chess table. She is posing as a chess player with tones of Superior Person, if you are interested in that stuff, evidenced in the attending text: “Be the chess player, not the chess piece.” Sassy, right?

Except that she is no chess player, evidenced in that she is moving first as black (white moves first) and her king and queen are in each other’s spot. Jerry can pipe in as he is much more a player than me, I’m barely a player, but I think maybe she just forfeited the game, if it had been a real game, per chess rules. In any case, the whole thing is a Superior Dance and she doesn’t even play, or she would be as startled by what’s on the board as any other player would be and fix them first, before performing the Dance.

I commented simply: “White moves first. Your queen and king are reversed.”

She blocked me shortly thereafter. With my own account, my two-wheel one, I can neither view posts at her page nor comment on them, now. She tolerates criticism less than you do. But said blocking could also be just hate for what I do at the Atlas page, I have no way of knowing.

She doesn’t talk back to anyone at the Atlas page, except to say things like, “I know, right!,” And, “you can say that again!!”

She is quite empty.

[Jon Letendre]

5 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

[1.] Von Mises did not think that Rand would have considered crony capitalists virtuous - if that's what Epstein thinks Rand would have thought.  Or put it a different way:  [2. ] Von Mises wouldn't have thought that Rand made a simple equation: wealth = virtue.

Ellen 

1. I agree.

2. I agree that he wouldn’t think Rand thought simply wealth = virtue. I think he would say he and Rand think highly productive people, high achievers, possess high virtue and are better people than the masses who would still live in caves if not for the better people. He correctly thinks that that message is in Atlas.

Ethan Epstein also thinks that message is in Atlas Shruggeed and he thinks it is bizarre that Clinton would adopt it by taking credit for receiving the backing of Americans in high-GDP areas. Epstein knows Clinton is interpreting Rand’s message correctly — he finds it bizarre that she adopts it openly in the first place, because she says she is a liberal progressive and it is not in line with the liberal progressive ethos.

Whether or not Clinton connects the truly correct people with goodness and productivity is entirely beside the point. She connects high productivity to being a better person. Rand did, too. Therefore, Epstein is justified in saying Clinton is Rand-like in taking credit for capturing support from the highly productive. Taking credit for that — whether one really deserves the support or really got it from particularly productive people is beside the point — taking credit for that and saying, “I’m kinda the real winner because I won more GDP so I have the support of the people who count more: the highly productive,” is Rand-like.

[Jon Letendre]

Incidentally, they like me enough and almost talk to me at the ARI page. I heart like a lot of their posts, but far from all. I’m sure I’ve been sassy from time to time, but I never attack them for being dumb assholes because they don’t act like dumb assholes. On one of their posts about a recent conference I commented, “That’s great, but do you have Q&A sessions with The Living Ayn Rand? The  Atlas Society does.”

The account responded with just and only the no words emoji. It has eyes but no mouth.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jon,

There you are.

All said and done, I like you...

A lot.

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

One more thing for now about Jennifer Grossman. I forgot to tell about perhaps the most significant communication she made. It was very early in my arrival at The Atlas Society’s Instagram page. It’s all there still, maybe I misrecall, but I don’t think so: I had been quite polite up to this point. I was critical, but not personal or insulting. I was politely critical of legitimate faults. I was also making intelligent posts that made clear I knew Rand and Objectivism and economics. Well, they repost this worthless meme like two days after already posting it. Sometimes they will delete a post that had some really embarrassingly wrong content, then within hours re-post with the stupid and sloppy errors fixed. But this was not that. This was just reposting, it seemed to me by error because they don’t usually do this, just reposting again very soon, by error. So I say ‘you posted this just two days ago.’

Jennifer writes, I will do my best from memory, again, I am confident it is all still there, but she writes ‘If the reposts annoy you, know that it is intentional. Suggest you unfollow.’

So I responded, ‘Posting decisions driven by me?! What happened to #youdoyou?’

#YouDoYou is her favorite hashtag, everything gets that shit. Here is how she typically uses it: Car broke down? Quit bitching, Princess! Drop the envy! #YouDoYou. #MOTIVATION #Objectivism #AynRand

[ThatGuy]

3 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

#YouDoYou is her favorite hashtag, everything gets that shit. Here is how she typically uses it: Car broke down? Quit bitching, Princess! Drop the envy! #YouDoYou.

I understand the motivational aspect, but there comes a point where that starts to sound like something out of an EST seminar...

[Jon Letendre]

1 minute ago, ThatGuy said:

I understand the motivational aspect, but there comes a point where that starts to sound like something out of an EST seminar...

Have you followed their Instagram account?

I don’t know what EST is yet, but will respond for now.

My frank impression is that their Instagram account is unhealthy to consume, for all people. For one thing it hammers and hammers over and over the message that one must make very difficult decisions and suffer every day to stay on the right path. Life is hard and unpleasant, or you are a loser. Pain and suffering are noble and you will be ordinary, do you hear me? ordinary, same as every other faceless loser, if you seek a life with less pain instead of more, etc., etc., etc., It is quite bizarre. I raised two daughters, really raised them, as the at-home parent. They are thriving and I know something about what I speak. Atlas Society’s Instagram message is plain unhealthy for all people, and especially unhelpful for young people. I see one of my tasks there as talking any young people listening down from the sadomaso freako shame show Atlas is blasting. There is nothing wrong with an “ordinary” life. There is nothing wrong with choosing worker bee life with no responsibility for enterprise outcomes, instead of entrepreneur and master of the universe, which they push and push as though it is the end all, the only acceptable ethos — or you are ordinary, a loser. And these little fuckers, while we are judging lives like they love to, they took a job at a non-profit and they all suck at their jobs! I want to reach out and throttle the snot-noses electronically. It’s my outlet. It’s healthy for me. I should thank her, really.

[ThatGuy]

13 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

Have you followed their Instagram account?

I don’t know what EST is yet, but will respond for now.

My frank impression is that their Instagram account is unhealthy to consume, for all people. For one thing it hammers and hammers over and over the message that one must make very difficult decisions and suffer every day to stay on the right path. Life is hard and unpleasant, or you are a loser. Pain and suffering are noble and you will be ordinary, do you hear me? ordinary, same as every other faceless loser, if you seek a life with less pain instead of more, etc., etc., etc., It is quite bizarre. I raised two daughters, really raised them, as the at-home parent. They are thriving and I know something about what I speak. Atlas Society’s Instagram message is plain unhealthy for all people, and especially unhelpful for young people. I see one of my tasks there as talking any young people listening down from the sadomaso freako shame show Atlas is blasting. There is nothing wrong with an “ordinary” life. There is nothing wrong with choosing worker bee life with no responsibility for enterprise outcomes, instead of entrepreneur and master of the universe, which they push and push as though it is the end all, the only acceptable ethos — or you are ordinary, a loser. And these little fuckers, while we are judging lives like they love to, they took a job at a non-profit and they all suck at their jobs! I want to reach out and throttle the snot-noses electronically. It’s my outlet. It’s healthy for me. I should thank her, really.

No, I rarely use Instagram for anything. 
RE:  The above, and EST: it really is starting to sound similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

5 hours ago, ThatGuy said:

... something out of an EST seminar...

T,

That has now morphed into a progeny organization called the Landmark Forum and that is where Leigh Branden ended up.

And, at least, I believe she is happy there.

btw - Erhard was one smart cookie and still is. He's mellowed now and doesn't do the experimenting on human beings thing anymore like he did in the est days. The last I heard of him, which was about a year ago, he does corporate lectures and the like.

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

Yesterday’s final Instagram posting from The Atlas Society.

I will post it alone first, then later show you the comment I made on it. A comment similar to what many had to say.

 

[Jon Letendre]

I noticed first that they were attacking Michael Robinson, that's great.

Then I noticed it was strange how they attacked him: with a Rand Paul quote that justifies and excuses the rich from enjoyment of opulence. See what I mean about how their brains never quite function all the way correctly? Its painful for me to see. But aside from that, wow, an attack on Michael Robinson.

I immediately commented: "Michael Robinson Obama was the grossest 1st "lady" ever and their dinner cruise on the river timed for pics and viewing the Notre Dame burn down (search it) was no coincidence." My comment still has no likes.

Other comments:

"His calves are thin just like a lot of pro running backs."  6 likes.

two responses to above: 1) "have you seen his back?"  3 likes.  2) "we've all seen his bulge." 1 like.

"Is that mike obuttma?"  4 likes.

"Big Mike..!!"  3 likes.

"Michael"  3 likes.

"And you put this dude in the picture?" 2 likes.

"That "woman" is abhorrent." 4 likes.

"Michael, the outfit!!!" 1 like.

"He's so creepy."

"Michael needs to STFU and stay at Martha's Vineyard."  2 likes.

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

55 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

I immediately commented: "Michael Robinson Obama was the grossest 1st "lady" ever and their dinner cruise on the river timed for pics and viewing the Notre Dame burn down (search it) was no coincidence." My comment still has no likes.

Jon,

For the record, I went there and I can't even see your comment.

I see the comments from the others you mentioned, but not your comment.

EDIT: Oops. I didn't know you had to click on the circle with the crosshairs to see more comments. I did that a couple of times and your comment showed up. So you are "mega_manly" over there? I like it.  

Michael