Mark Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Last July Craig Biddle of The Objective Standard published “Regarding Carl Barney and Scientology” in defense of Barney. That didn’t satisfy some of his readers so a few days ago he published a Part Two, same webpage as what is now called Part One. I review it at: Barney Continues Telling His Story 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Mark, you are a hero. And that Biddle twat sounds like he has taken too many of Daddy’s mindfuck courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Good article. Effective. Drip... drip... drip... It occurs to me there is an interesting timeline coincidence. Barney was commercially involved in Scientology roughly from 1969 to 1979. Did I get that right? Messing around with franchises would not have put Barney on the inside with the Scientology elite corps (the Sea Organization), but there was one organization under the Sea Org that did a lot of crossover activity, especially regarding law, spycraft (that's not a mistake), intimidation and enforcement, financial investigations, and so on: The Guardian's Office (later called The Office of Special Affairs--OSA). Two of the more notorious Guardian's Office scandals that blew up big time were Operation Snow White and Operation Freakout. (Forgive me for using Wikipedia links. They are easier than combing through the tons of stuff in my own library and all over the place on the Internet. Consider them an introduction and overview only.) Both projects blew sky high around the time Barney left Scientology. Snow White almost destroyed the Church entirely. Briefly, the Church of Scientology, through the Guardian's office, ran the largest covert surveillance operation ever staged against the US government (about 136 departments, agencies and consulates, etc.). It focused a large part of this effort against the IRS. Hubbard's own wife Mary Sue Hubbard (and others involved in Snow White) received a jail sentence in 1979. That's when Barney left Scientology, isn't it? Operation Freakout had less impact, but it involved the FBI, was a criminal conspiracy and all the good stuff one can imagine. Briefly. Paulette Cooper wrote the first exposé of Scientology in 1971 called The Scandal of Scientology. The Church was not amused. So it infiltrated her life and tried to induce her to commit suicide, or at least, be committed to a mental institution. Parallel to this, it forged evidence that prompted investigations against her for bomb threats, constantly made anonymous death threats, impersonated her making threats in public against people like President Ford and Henry Kissinger, spread false documents everywhere she was at talking about her carrying venereal disease and other icky things, sued her for millions, and on and on. Tony Ortega recently wrote a book detailing all this called The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper. Operation Freakout was uncovered in 1977 when the FBI raided the Scientology offices about Snow White (and filled up a 16 ton truck with documents). Knowing how the Guardian's Office operated, I think it would have been impossible for Barney not to have been approached to make sure the students in his franchises were not reading her book and things like that. And, to use Biddle's favorite word, we all know higher-ups like to gossip among themselves. They talk to each other. The point is that these covert operations (and there were many more) were carried out during the 10 years or so Barney operated Scientology franchises and when they blew up, he left. Did Barney jump a sinking ship? Did he get turned off or scared by the scandals? Did he get out while the getting was still good enough to cover tracks of any of his own misbehavior? Is it all just a coincidence and a spat with Hubbard? Did he do like Biddle said and get disillusioned with the religiosity of the Church (if he was able to find any)? I don't know and can only speculate. But the Wikipedia articles are full of names of people who were implicated in the scandals and provide links to sites and sources with more. It would be interesting to see if any of these people were associated with Barney before, during and after his own time in the Church. To the interested, the coinciding timeline is just crying out to be looked at. In addition, I have another question. Why is downplaying the Scientology connection important enough for Barney to make a stink about it (through Biddle)? I mean, a simple, "Yeah, I was part of that crap back then and did some stuff I'm not proud of, but I later changed my mind and got out, so who cares?" would be enough to bury the interest of most people. Is it vanity? Or something else? Like the saying goes, the cover-up is usually worse than the crime (or sleaze, if you will ). Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Michael: "In addition, I have another question. Why is downplaying the Scientology connection important enough for Barney to make a stink about it (through Biddle)? I mean, a simple, "Yeah, I was part of that crap back then and did some stuff I'm not proud of, but I later changed my mind and got out, so who cares?" would be enough to bury the interest of most people. Is it vanity? Or something else?" Maybe he knows he will be in the headlines shortly? Be first to tell your story. Q says Snow White a lot. Often he seems to mean CIA supercomputers thusly named, other times something else. #142 from Nov12, 2017 is fascinating: 142 Q !ITPb.qbhqo ID: 99LpGawB No.149122955 Nov 12 2017 12:16:24 (EST) How did Soros replace family ‘y’? Who is family ‘y’? Trace the bloodlines of these (3) families. What happened during WWII? Was Hitler a puppet? Who was his handler? What was the purpose? What was the real purpose of the war? What age was GS? What is the Soros family history? What has occurred since the fall of N Germany? Who is A. Merkel? What is A. Merkel’s family history? Follow the bloodline. Who died on the Titanic? What year did the Titanic sink? Why is this relevant? What ‘exactly’ happened to the Titanic? What ‘class of people’ were guaranteed a lifeboat? Why did select ‘individuals’ not make it into the lifeboats? Why is this relevant? How do we know who was on the lifeboats (D or A)? How were names and bodies recorded back then? When were tickets purchased for her maiden voyage? Who was ‘specifically’ invited? Less than 10. What is the FED? What does the FED control? Who controls the FED? Who approved the formation of the FED? Why did H-wood glorify Titanic as a tragic love story? Who lived in the movie (what man)? Why is this relevant? Opposite is true. What is brainwashing? What is a PSYOP? What happened to the Hindenburg? What really happened to the Hindenburg? Who died during the ‘accident’? Why is this relevant? What are sheep? Who controls the narrative? The truth would put 99% of people in the hospital. It must be controlled. Snow White. Iron Eagle. Jason Bourne (CIA/Dream). Q https://qanon.pub/?q=snow white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 At the site the little "Answer" button attempts to provide some of the information: Q !ITPb.qbhqo ID: 99LpGawB No.149122955 Nov 12 2017 12:16:24 (EST) How did Soros replace family ‘y’? Who is family ‘y’? Trace the bloodlines of these (3) families. What happened during WWII? Was Hitler a puppet? Who was his handler? What was the purpose? What was the real purpose of the war? What age was GS? What is the Soros family history? What has occurred since the fall of N Germany? Who is A. Merkel? What is A. Merkel’s family history? Follow the bloodline. Who died on the Titanic? What year did the Titanic sink? Why is this relevant? What ‘exactly’ happened to the Titanic? What ‘class of people’ were guaranteed a lifeboat? Why did select ‘individuals’ not make it into the lifeboats? Why is this relevant? How do we know who was on the lifeboats (D or A)? How were names and bodies recorded back then? When were tickets purchased for her maiden voyage? Who was ‘specifically’ invited? Less than 10. What is the FED? What does the FED control? Who controls the FED? Who approved the formation of the FED? Why did H-wood glorify Titanic as a tragic love story? Who lived in the movie (what man)? Why is this relevant? Opposite is true. What is brainwashing? What is a PSYOP? What happened to the Hindenburg? What really happened to the Hindenburg? Who died during the ‘accident’? Why is this relevant? What are sheep? Who controls the narrative? The truth would put 99% of people in the hospital. It must be controlled. Snow White. Iron Eagle. Jason Bourne (CIA/Dream). Q answers How did Soros replace family ‘y’? Who is family ‘y’? Rothschild Trace the bloodlines of these (3) families. All POTUS, except MVB & DJT, directly related to royal European bloodlines; -34 have been genetic descendants from just one person, Charlemagne, the brutal eighth century King of the Franks. -19 of them directly descended from King Edward III of England; Bush is closely related to the king of Albania and has kinship with every member of the British royal family and the House of Windsor. He is related to 20 British Dukes, the 13th cousin of Britain’s Queen Mother, and of her daughter Queen Elizabeth. He is 13th cousin once removed from Prince Charles and has direct descent from King Henry III, Charles II, and Edward I of England. “Father George and wife Barbara [Bush] are both descendants of Godfroi de Bouillon who, in 1099, led European noblemen in the successful Crusade to recapture Jerusalem from the Islamic faith and moved into the King’s palace at Temple Mount … Godfroi de Bouillon was the first king of Jerusalem and the Duke of Lower Lorraine, a major region for the Illuminati bloodline What happened during WWII? European powers fought with Russia and America against Germany, Italy and Japan. Was Hitler a puppet? In the beginning yes. Hitler accepted money from International Bankers. He soon used that to Germany's benefit and broke from the international banking system, thereby "cutting the strings" What was the purpose? To use another form of "socialism" to combat international socialism (Communism of the USSR) which had gone off the plan and was no longer completely in the control of the bad actors. What was the real purpose of the war? Creation of Israel by Rothschilds What age was GS? What is the Soros family history? What has occurred since the fall of N Germany? Germany had been split into eastern and western Germany. Who is A. Merkel? What is A. Merkel’s family history? Angela Merkel was born A. Kasner. Her father was Horst Kasner who changed his name from Horst Kaźmierczak, which was his mothers last name because he was born out of wedlock. His father was Ludwik Wojciechowski Follow the bloodline. What year did the Titanic sink? 1912 Why is this relevant? It occurred before the creation of the FED Who died on the Titanic? John Jacob Astor IV (richest man on the ship) Benjamin Guggenheim Captain Edward John Smith Isidor and Ida Straus (co-owner of Macy’s) Thomas Andrews Lady Duff Gordon Lady Countess Rothes (Lucy Noël Martha Dyer-Edwards) Millvina Dean What ‘exactly’ happened to the Titanic? What ‘class of people’ were guaranteed a lifeboat? Women and children, first class Why did select ‘individuals’ not make it into the lifeboats? John Jacob Astor IV, Benjamin Guggenheim, Isidor and Ida Straus were all opposed to the creation of a central bank. Why is this relevant? Wealthy, influential opposition was eliminated. How do we know who was on the lifeboats (D or A)? Entire list of lifeboats and survivors in them. https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-survivors-list/ Boat A was allowed to drift off after it was partially Submerged; It was recovered a month later, by RMS Oceanic, another White Star Line ship. 3 bodies where left in the boat and 12-13 survivors made it to Boat D. 25 people were on board boat D excluding boat A's survivors. Known People to survive of Boat A and D are Michel Marcel Navratil, Edmond Marcel Navratil, Caroline Brown,Hugh Woolner, Mauritz Håkan Björnström-Steffansson, Frederick Maxfield Hoyt and Rhoda Abbott. How were names and bodies recorded back then? According to Wikipedia: Upon recovery, each body retrieved by the Mackay-Bennett was numbered and given as detailed a description as possible to help aid in identification. The physical appearance of each body—height, weight, age, hair and eye colour, visible birthmarks, scars or tattoos, was catalogued and any personal effects on the bodies were gathered and placed in small canvas bags corresponding to their number. (It was decided to preserve all bodies of First Class passengers because of the need to visually identify wealthy men to resolve any disputes over large estates) When were tickets purchased for her maiden voyage? In July of 1911, White Star and Harland & Wolff announced a date for Titanic's maiden voyage - March 20, 1912. September 20, 1911: Titanic's maiden voyage delayed due to necessary diversion of workers and materials to repair Olympic. October 11, 1911: White Star officially announces new date for Titanic's maiden voyage in the London Times - April 10, 1912. This information leads me to believe that tickets would not have been sold before July, 1911 (when the first date was announced). It seems to make sense, also, that ticket sales would slow or stop when construction was interrupted; then ticket sales might pick up again after the Oct. 11, 1911, announcement of the new launch date. According to the second link I have given below, Joseph Laroche purchased tickets for his family in March, 1912. According to the third link below, one family was transferred to the Titanic when the ship they were ticketed for was cancelled. This transfer happened "in the spring of 1912," which at least tells us that the Titanic was not sold out by spring. The 4th link shows what a first class ticket looked like. Source(s): http://www.theteachersguide.com/Titanict... http://www.titanic1.org/people/louise-la... http://www.titanic1.org/people/winnifred... http://secured.titanichistoricalsociety.org/store/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jodoqpo8 Who was ‘specifically’ invited? John Jacob Astor IV Emilio Portaluppi well-respected stonemason received a telegram from the Astors inviting him to join them on Titanic as they returned from a holiday in Egypt. He was given first class travel and it appears, wanted him to use his skills on statues outside their Newport villa. Bill Müller served as secretary to a Dutch traffic inspector whose job was to inspect ships for insurance and investment firms and was an invited guest aboard the Titanic from the ship’s owners. Mott was an influential evangelist and longtime YMCA official, who shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1946. He and a colleague were supposedly offered free passage on the Titanic by a White Star Line official interested in their work but declined and instead took the more humble liner Lapland. The Italian inventor, wireless telegraphy pioneer and winner of the 1909 Nobel Prize in Physics was offered free passage on Titanic but had taken the Lusitania three days earlier. Less than 10. Alfred Gwynne Vanderbilt I also, Someone in their family objected to their sailing aboard the new ship, “because so many things can go wrong on a maiden voyage.” What is the FED? Consortium of private central banks in the US. What does the FED control? US monetary policy, including interest rates. Who controls the FED? Rothschilds Who approved the formation of the FED? Woodrow Wilson Why did H-wood glorify Titanic as a tragic love story? To hide history / distract from the fact the last 3 major opponents of the FED died that night. Who lived in the movie (what man)? This line of questions suggest someone famous was shown to have survived in the movie but in reality died that night and his identity was stolen. Possible list Jack Thayer William Ernest Carter George Dunton Widener Harry Elkins Widener J. Bruce Ismay Why is this relevant? He's a rich guy that kills himself after losing all his money in the crash Their Narrative changes the history, or so they'd like it to. Titanic sank due to enormous uncontrollable fire, not iceberg, claim experts. Makes sabotage a credible theory rather than ramming an iceberg which was the cover. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rms-titanic-evidence-fire-senan-molony-belfast-new-york-southampton-sink-april-1912-a7504236.html Opposite is true. What is brainwashing? Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is a non-scientific concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques. Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently, to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind, as well as to change their attitudes, values, and beliefs. What is a PSYOP? Psychological operations (PSYOP) are planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to audiences to influence their emotions, motives, and objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals. What happened to the Hindenburg? Official story: exploded because of a spark and being full of hydrogen (explosive) rather than helium (inert) What really happened to the Hindenburg? Joseph Spah was a suspected saboteur of the Hindenburg according to FBI docs: https://www.rt.com/viral/387447-hindenburg-disaster-theories-anniversary/ Who died during the ‘accident’? Most were German Nazis. List of Passengers who died (crew who died not listed) Ernst Rudolf Anders * Nationality: German Occupation: Merchant Body returned S.S. Hamburg, 5/13/37 Birger Brinck * Nationality: Swedish Occupation: Writer Body returned S.S. Drottningholm, 5/15/37 Hermann Doehner * general manager of Beick, Felix y Compania, a prominent German wholesale drug company headquartered in Mexico City, Mexico Nationality: Mexican Occupation: Merchant Irene Doehner * Age: 14 Nationality: Mexican Occupation: Daughter Burtis Dolan* Age: 47 Nationality: United States Edouard Douglas* Age: 39 Nationality: United States Fritz Erdmann * Nationality: German Occupation: Colonel (German Air Ministry) Body returned S.S. Hamburg, 5/13/37 Otto Ernst * Age: 77 Nationality: German Body returned S.S. Bremen, 5/22/37 Moritz Feibusch * Age: 57 Nationality: United States Erich Knoecher * Nationality: German Occupation: Manufacturer Body returned S.S. Hamburg, 5/13/37 John Pannes * Age: 60 Nationality: United States Emma Pannes * Age: 56 Nationality: United States Otto Reichhold * Nationality: German Occupation: Merchant Body returned S.S. Hamburg, 5/13/37 Why is this relevant? Both the Titanic and Hindenburg are illustrative of globalist/puppet masters' resolve, ruthlessness, power, and control, and they have been very successful in controlling the narrative through media and Hollywood. They are willing to kill innocent people and destroy very expensive property to get what they want then control the fallout. What are sheep? Normal people/people that believe every word of their gov/media Who controls the narrative? The truth would put 99% of people in the hospital. It must be controlled. Snow White. Spy Vs. Spy CIA Directorate of Operations code-named Snow White. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-01-13/features/0001130129_1_central-intelligence-agency-headquarters-cia-super-secret https://archive.fo/yCwf9 Iron Eagle. Jason Bourne (CIA/Dream). Jason Bourne (CIA/Dream) is Google being run by the CIA hence Alphabet Inc. Pichai is Kalloor. Deepdream. Coerced collaboration between CIA and "Deepdream", a fictional social media company that was a thinly veiled amalgamation of Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube, the three social giants who were just compelled to testify before Congress. SUMMARY Soros replaced family 'y'. Someone is family 'y'. Trace the bloodlines of these (3) families. Hitler was a puppet. Someone was his handler. There was a real purpose of the war. What age was GS? Look at the Soros family history. What has occurred since the fall of N Germany. Look at A. Merkel's family history. Follow the bloodline. Important people died on the Titanic in 1912. A certain 'class of people' were guaranteed a lifeboat. Select individuals did not make it to the lifeboats. We know if someone was on the lifeboats (D or A). How were names and bodies recorded back then? Less than 10 were specifically invited. Look at the Federal Reserve. What does the Federal Reserve control, and who controls the Federal Reserve? Someone approved the formation of the Federal Reserve. Hollywood glorifies Titanic as a tragic love story. A man lived in that movie, but the opposite is true. Brainwashing! Important people died during on the Hindenburg. Someone controls the narrative. The truth would put 99% of people in the hospital. It must be controlled. Snow White. Iron Eagle. Jason Bourne (CIA/Dream). extra answers How did Soros replace family ‘y’? Who is family ‘y’? Trace the bloodlines of these (3) families. What happened during WWII? Was Hitler a puppet? According to an article that appeared in the New Yorker in 1941, Goering was ultimately the real power. http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/hitler/sources/40s/41currhist/41vCurrHistHitlersBoss.htm What was the purpose? What was the real purpose of the war? Destroy the central power in Europe (Germany) that had dared to created an independent public central bank not based on usury and not affiliated with Rothschild central banking system. What age was GS? What is the Soros family history? What has occurred since the fall of N Germany? Who is A. Merkel? Chancellor of Germany for past 12 years. Former physicist/Stasi informer and member of FDJ (Freie Deutsche Jugend: political motivated youth organisation. Similar Hitler Jugend (HJ) during WW2) What is A. Merkel’s family history? Follow the bloodline. What year did the Titanic sink? Why is this relevant? Who died on the Titanic? The Astor Family was one of the richest families in the world and John Astor III opposed the Federal Reserve. John Jacob Astor IV, the richest man in the world at the time, a friend of Nikola Tesla, was an outspoken opponent of the creation of the Federal Reserve. Astor gained his wealth, in part, as a real estate builder, investor, and inventor. Other prominent Federal Reserve detractors, such as Benjamin Guggenheim and Isa Strauss, also died on board.” http://thespiritscience.net/2016/06/08/did-jp-morgan-sink-the-titanic-to-remove-rivals-form-the-federal-reserve/ What ‘exactly’ happened to the Titanic? What ‘class of people’ were guaranteed a lifeboat? Why did select ‘individuals’ not make it into the lifeboats? 10 famous people did not go, cancelled trip last minute Why is this relevant? How do we know who was on the lifeboats (D or A)? How were names and bodies recorded back then? When were tickets purchased for her maiden voyage? Who was ‘specifically’ invited? Less than 10. JP. Morgan - had his own personal suite, but he cancelled at the last minute What is the FED? What does the FED control? Who controls the FED? Who approved the formation of the FED? Why did H-wood glorify Titanic as a tragic love story? Who lived in the movie (what man)? Why is this relevant? Opposite is true. What is brainwashing? What is a PSYOP? What happened to the Hindenburg? What really happened to the Hindenburg? The girlfriend of Spehl, the suspected sabateur, had communist beliefs and anti-Nazi connections. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster) Who died during the ‘accident’? Prescott Bush and Allen Dulles owned shares in Union Bank, which owned Holland-America. Holland-America managed the Hindenburg. The man in charge of Holland-America in the US, John Pannes, died in the Hindenburg. Why is this relevant? What are sheep? Who controls the narrative? The truth would put 99% of people in the hospital. It must be controlled. Snow White. Operation Snow White https://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-01-13/features/0001130129_1_central-intelligence-agency-headquarters-cia-super-secret http://archive.is/yCwf9 Iron Eagle. Jason Bourne (CIA/Dream). SUMMARY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 17, 2019 Author Share Posted September 17, 2019 MSK, Your dates are about right. Barney was probably commercially involved by 1967 however the only hard date I know is that by 1970 he owned five franchises. He must have worked his way up to that number. Hubbard kicked him out in 1979, so I’d say probably 12 years of commercial involvement and certainly 9. I don’t have any theories about the coincidence of that period with Co$’s shenanigans. In an earlier post you suggested that Hubbard threw Barney out because he was, as Hubbard claimed, engaged in shady activity, and wanted to make Co$ look better to the FBI, which was beginning an investigation about that time. I don’t know, as I said at the time. It’s off my radar. Jon, Why you spammed this thread with obscenities and prolix nonsense only you know but please delete it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 It’s not spam or nonsense and not only I know why and you too could know why by simply asking. ”please delete it.” No, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Jon Letendre said: It’s not spam or nonsense and not only I know why and you too could know why by simply asking. Am I right in thinking that the bridge to the Q material you posted was Michael's brief discussion of "Operation Snow White"? I read the whole copy/paste, and I don't think it's nonsense, whether or not all of it is true. Although lengthy, it isn't prolix but instead terse in covering a lot of territory. But how much connection do you see to Mark's discussion of Carl Barney? Ellen PS: The link under the "Snow White" heading gives me a URL-not-found notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 17 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said: Am I right in thinking that the bridge to the Q material you posted was Michael's brief discussion of "Operation Snow White"? I read the whole copy/paste, and I don't think it's nonsense, whether or not all of it is true. Although lengthy, it isn't prolix but instead terse in covering a lot of territory. But how much connection do you see to Mark's discussion of Carl Barney? Ellen PS: The link under the "Snow White" heading gives me a URL-not-found notice. Yes, that was the bridge. Q mentions Snow White so so many times and I wanted people who know more to have a look and see if any references are to CO$ operations. While I understand our Barney was directly involved neither in Titanic nor Hindenburg, The Gang was and they also created Freemasonry, Mormonism and CO$, so L Ron and Barney were/are very highly placed soldiers, probably bloodliners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 5 hours ago, Jon Letendre said: While I understand our Barney was directly involved neither in Titanic nor Hindenburg, The Gang was and they also created Freemasonry, Mormonism and CO$, so L Ron and Barney were/are very highly placed soldiers, probably bloodliners. I don't think Barney is Gang connected - just a pretty successful common variety con man who started using "education" as his gimmick when he was involved in Scientology. Ellen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 I admit to having some trouble following this discussion, but my take is would-be power follows money and/or extant political power and then it's a fight, maybe over decades or even longer to the political and totalitarian top with a Hitler, Stalin or Mao crushing or subjugating all opposition. The Arms of Krupp were the arms of Hitler. Today the left is a bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off, but still shitting all over the place so I don't get this "Gang" business no matter how I try. Trump, a businessman, has moved into the void created by the now completely defunct intellectual left and the chickens have lost control of their bowels. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: I admit to having some trouble following this discussion... Brant, On a philosophical level, it boils down to the difference between people who believe humans are perfectible and others who believe that humans can and do improve, but a perfection stage is not applicable. This difference is absolutely critical to understanding the root of this discussion. Why? Because once one accepts the premise that humans are perfectible, inevitably, people start wondering who will do the perfecting. And don't forget, it's always easier to perfect others than it is to perfect oneself. After all, with others, if one fails, one can simply discard or kill the dud. One cannot do that with oneself and continue the sacred mission of perfecting the species. So who should do the perfecting of others? For certain kinds of people, the answer is always, "Why, that's me." And off they go using others (often enslaving them) to implement their perfection schemes. They always crash against the unknown unknowns, too. People who use growth and natural evolution as their standard to develop ideas for improving human ability and life do not prompt the emergence of a cult around them. The "humans are perfectible" folks always end up making a cult. Hubbard was a "humans are perfectible" person. Ayn Rand was, too, (even saying, "And I mean it,") although she had some other qualities that counterbalanced that. The Gang is full of these people who are not nearly as talented at becoming gurus, but they do believe they belong to a master class of of people who will be perfected. After all, they feel they are inherently the correct raw material for such perfecting because they belong to a different superior stock, while the rest of humanity, made up of inferior stock, will eventually die off. The best scheme they have come up with so far to perfect humanity is to rule others through a technocracy (which they will control, of course ), while they stay above the rules and reap the benefits, both from the technological improvements and from the human livestock being ruled. Incidentally, these last exist only to feed, house, and serve the members of this superior class and provide for their appetites (even if some members of this superior class have weird tastes like sex with little kids). Since a technocracy means many people, not just one ruler, The Gang isn't one organization. It's basically a bunch of different cliques with varying degrees of connection, going from not connected at all except for this feeling of superiority, to outright formal structures. These cliques prefer to stay in the background since being public makes anyone an easy target. And there are lots and lots of them. Oddly enough, many of these people don't understand that their intellectual root is the belief that humans are perfectible. They only feel that they are better than others and belong to a group marching humanity toward some kind of higher state (which they will be the first to benefit from, of course). So their allegiance is not to the human species, not even to themselves, but to their standing within the species. Also, when they develop and control power structures, they have no problem killing off the members of the species who don't agree. When you look at things through this lens and take it as a premise, it's very easy to peg groups and people to it and understand why they do what they do. That's why it's a mistake to consider Barney a conman and only that. People on both sides of the human perfection question can be cons. But the perfectible thing is how someone like Barney can use--in good conscience--a scheme of setting up suckers to take out massive student loans, give the money to him, and stay saddled with the debt as their lives crash about them. Hell, who knows? One of these human livestock might even learn something and level up. But if they don't, no skin off his ass. It's just another chicken in the pot. If he tried to run that on members of the (to him) superior stock, it would not be to farm them like he does with the human livestock. Instead, it would be to take their power--a fight among equals, so to speak. From this angle, he is part of The Gang by nature, but I don't believe he is connected with most of the cliques within it. He's got his formal human perfection scheme in Objectivism. And for superior ruling stock friends, maybe there are some banking folks and a few others backstage... Incidentally, Rand herself kept going back and forth on being part of The Gang. On one hand, she promoted individualism and the preciousness of all human beings, and on the other, she wrote essays like "The Missing Link" where the inferior stock had an "anti-conceptual mentality." Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 Michael, Terminology problems again. I think that you're using "The Gang" as more or less synonymous with elitists. That isn't how I'm using the term, and hasn't been my impression of how Jon is using it. Instead, what I mean - and I think Jon means (he can correct me if I'm misunderstanding him) - is certain long-lined families and connected persons and organizations, loosely "The Illuminati" plus some others. Ellen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 11 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said: Michael, Terminology problems again. I think that you're using "The Gang" as more or less synonymous with elitists. That isn't how I'm using the term, and hasn't been my impression of how Jon is using it. Instead, what I mean - and I think Jon means (he can correct me if I'm misunderstanding him) - is certain long-lined families and connected persons and organizations, loosely "The Illuminati" plus some others. Ellen Ellen, I am using it a little broader than you and Jon. I certainly include the people you mention. I don't think, however, that in any group, the followers (who are in the vast majority) are of the same core nature as the leaders, even as they are of the same superficial nature. In other words, take any one of the head honchos of The Illuminati. That person has a lot of people around him that will be considered an Illumaniti, but in fact, those people around him are simply followers who feel superior in the way they learned and chose. This goes for all of these groups that fall within "The Gang" (in the way I use it). We are essentially talking about the leaders and their closest cronies. The followers without them are nothing. I think getting rid of the poison does not happen by cutting off a few snakes on the head of a Hydra--a Hydra that one defines by certain snakes only. To stay somewhat within the bounds of this thread, when you chop off one snake on the head of a Hydra, two more grow back--and among them, for example, an L Ron Hubbard can appear rather than a Rothschild. He's a party-crasher, granted, but he still has the same nature as The Gang and loves being on the head of the Hydra. That Hydra is what I call The Gang. It is the root of all the snakes. Trying to pin The Gang down to a few groups gets even more complicated when you take into account the structure of the Illuminati. I once posted here on OL a series of videos about this by G. Edward Griffin where he talked about Tragedy and Hope by Quigley. I looked around and didn't see the videos quickly, so here's a more recent and compact video. (I know you don't like to watch videos, but, believe me, this is a lot shorter than the book. ) Quigley was a mentor to Bill Clinton and the historian of the Rhodes-created secret organization often called The Illuminati. I don't see a focus on this format of organization among the people you and Jon seem to agree on as The Gang, which is another reason I use the term a bit broader. So what is the Quigley formula? Briefly, you can't get any "Gang" of any importance going without funding. That explains how one of the first people to set up a large "The Gang" structure was Cecil Rhodes--he funded it with his last will and testament. And, man, did he have shitloads of money. Practically the diamonds and raw materials of half of Africa. He wanted his effort to survive down the ages, too, so he traveled the world looking at different structures. The best he found was by The Illuminati, an ancient religious order that has probably died out--and I only say "probably" because I love the conspiracy theorists and I know their passion in preaching it hasn't. The original Illuminati used a system of circles within circles within circles. This means the inner circle is not known to the outer circle, and that is not known to the next circle, and so on. Each member of a circle knows there is someone behind things, but they are not invited in the smaller circle and do not know who those people are. Rhodes liked this form of organization over all others and adopted it. In practical terms and by way of an example, at the outer rings, you have divisions like the Democrats versus the Republicans, but most of them don't know that the same inner circle is running them both (nowadays people know the some of the inner circle like the Council on Foreign Relations, etc.), but the people in that circle don't know there's an even deeper circle, and so on. btw - You can tell the outer ring Democrat and Republican players by their credential as Rhodes scholars. So the Democrats and the Republicans bash each other for show to the human livestock, but they both grow the state. And that's their purpose assigned by the inner circle (which don't forget, is controlled by another deeper inner circle and so on). That's the Quigley formula. I differ with Griffin on one point. He claims there is another large organization that fights the Rhodes structure for world dominance and that is Communism. I agree that Communism is one of the threats, but not the only one. (I forgive Griffin, though, because his roots go back to The John Birch Society and they used to think there was a commie under every bed and that Eisenhower was a red. But they did some kickass scholarship and, fortunately, Griffin reflects this, too.) In fact, I see several structures in play in the world that use the circles within circles within circles formula. Scientology is one, but it's quite small compared to others. Wanna bet Islam is organized like this? Hmmmm?... If you do see the video, and if you look at it through the lens of "perfectible human," you will notice several times Griffin mentioning the ways insiders of the Rhodes structure feel superior to the rest of mankind. This superior caste mentality in the Rhodes structure started out as the blatant deeply felt racism mixed with xenophobia of Cecil Rhodes. He thought the English (the Anglos only) had provided all that was good in the world, so he left all his money to promote Englishness--until it conquered the globe. After the World Wars, this shifted from the English to "superior" technocrats and collectivists of a certain type. But the psychology of the actors, that is, them feeling superior to the rest of mankind while harboring an inner drive to rule over mankind to perfect those little suckers and cull the defective specimens (or put them out to pasture until they die off) is identical. Anyway, I agree with Jon on much of what he posts, but I believe what he calls The Gang is often too restricted to specific players and does not take into account the copycats, fellow travelers, and so on that have sprung up over the last century or so. The nature of the beast allows for far more beasts to exist than the ones being identified in these discussions. That nature is the root, not a few specific beasts bearing that nature. And then there's this--the different beasts generally recognize each other as beasts, even when they are not part of the same clique. The Council on Foreign Relations lion will lay down with the Osama bin Laden lamb because they both know they are the same kind of beast--which was proven when bin Laden threw off the sheep's clothing and 9/11 happened. When you look at the information coming out about the MK-ULTRA project, you realize how many former Nazis were in it and you see this again. Beast knows beast, but they serve different tribe masters. (This, by the way, is the root of Trump hatred. He's not a beast in this manner, he's supposed to be premium livestock, yet he's in the lair of the beasts and kicking them out.) Maybe I should leave the term "The Gang" to you and Jon, but Brant said he was confused re this discussion. So I tried to get to the depth of commonality because I imagined he might be looking at other Gangs doing nasty shit and wondering why this doesn't add up with the stuff you and Jon talk about. But who knows? Maybe I just confused him even more. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 12 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: I admit to having some trouble following this discussion, but my take is would-be power follows money and/or extant political power and then it's a fight, maybe over decades or even longer to the political and totalitarian top with a Hitler, Stalin or Mao crushing or subjugating all opposition. The Arms of Krupp were the arms of Hitler. Today the left is a bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off, but still shitting all over the place so I don't get this "Gang" business no matter how I try. Trump, a businessman, has moved into the void created by the now completely defunct intellectual left and the chickens have lost control of their bowels. --Brant Brant, my impression is that you see the whole world from an individual aspect. I used to as well. I thought every person was like me in trying to get by as best they could essentially on their own. Like you, when a Bill Gates rose to the top, I assumed he was simply an individual who succeeded dramatically. A Hitler rose to the top and I assumed he had competed as an individual and beat the other individuals who wanted to be on top. What we are getting at is that all of that is wrong. Hitler was born on a team, Gates, too. Those individuals didn’t win, but the team they were born into did and it would have won no matter whose face they had used. Old, inter-generational teams. I am saying Hubbard and Barney, too, while Ellen and Michael think they were not so born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 I watched some of HBO’s ROME series recently. Imagine being Octavian. Your uncle is the supreme ruler of the world and the other dozen noble 400 year old Rome-founding families are looking for a way to kill all of you. Even if it is behind some nasty stuff you don’t approve of, either you advance your side or you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 20, 2019 Author Share Posted September 20, 2019 Communism might better be viewed as a tool of the Powers That Be – perhaps a more palatable term than the Illuminati. Antony Sutton wrote about this. Rand’s The Objectivist favorably reviewed one of his books, about Western technological aid being responsible for the viability of the Soviet Union. Rand also recommended the book after one of her Ford Hall Forum lectures, in the Q&A. He went on to write more wide ranging books. This interview transcript is a good introduction to his later work. Here’s a list of video interviews and books. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Jon Letendre said: Brant, my impression is that you see the whole world from an individual aspect. I used to as well. I thought every person was like me in trying to get by as best they could essentially on their own. Like you, when a Bill Gates rose to the top, I assumed he was simply an individual who succeeded dramatically. A Hitler rose to the top and I assumed he had competed as an individual and beat the other individuals who wanted to be on top. What we are getting at is that all of that is wrong. Hitler was born on a team, Gates, too. Those individuals didn’t win, but the team they were born into did and it would have won no matter whose face they had used. Old, inter-generational teams. I am saying Hubbard and Barney, too, while Ellen and Michael think they were not so born. Things are steadily getting better for the almost seven billion people of planet earth. There are exceptions. --Brant we are discussing two different kinds of personalization: individual and general and there's no getting to the latter without the former Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 7 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: But who knows? Maybe I just confused [Brant] even more more. Michael, At this point, I might be more confused than Brant. You've clarified your meaning of "The Gang," but I don't feel sure I understand Jon's meaning, so I'll ask: Jon, are you thinking in terms of one group which has basically been trying to run the world to that group's advantage? If yes, for how long? How far back does this group go? (I'm of the opinion that there are interlocking and sometimes competing groups, and that they aren't so all-powerful as you seem to think.) And: How many members? (Ballpark figure.) It can't be that they're all family members if you classify practically everyone of whom you disapprove as part of The Gang. Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 6 hours ago, Jon Letendre said: ... while Ellen and Michael think they were not so born. Jon, To be clear, of course I think there are many of these "The Gang" elitist insiders that belong to the same family bloodlines that go back centuries. Yes, many of them are inbred, perverts and all of it. But I also see a lot of newcomers pop up all the time that do the circles within circles within circles thing. (Let's not forget the intersected circles, also. ) I don't see how one negates the other. It's a big world. Much bigger, in fact, than I believe many of them prefer. Smaller is easier to control... As an aside, I don't know L Ron Hubbard's bloodline except for Elbert Hubbard, who was a famous writer way back when. (And it turns out the connection was probably due to adoption, not blood.) L Ron made A Message to Garcia by his "Uncle" Elbert mandatory reading in Scientology for a time. (It's actually a hell of a nice read, especially for Objectivists--see here for PDF and here for normal web page.) I believe there is a video of L Ron reading it out loud, but don't quote me since I have not seen it. The Roycroft Campus Corporation, founded by Elbert Hubbard and still existing, has the following notice on their site: Quote Elbert Hubbard and L.Ron Hubbard A common question about Elbert Hubbard is if he is related to L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology. (Scientology's members include famous Hollywood actors such as John Travolta and Tom Cruise.) A few stories persist: One states that L. Ron Hubbard was a nephew of Elbert by the adoption of his father into the Hubbard family. L. Ron's father, Harry Ross Hubbard, was born Henry August Wilson but was adopted as an orphan by a Mr. and Mrs. James Hubbard of Iowa. Elbert, therefore, was an uncle (but not by blood). L. Ron Hubbard was so impressed with his uncle Elbert Hubbard's accomplishments that in 1956 he dedicated the ninth printing of Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health to him. L. Ron Hubbard was born in 1911. Elbert Hubbard died in 1915. It is unknown but doubtful they ever met. But L. Ron Hubbard was known to elaborate on his background, and it is said he used the popularity of Elbert’s name to promote his own causes. NOTE: As of right now, we have no record of a Mr. and Mrs. James Hubbard of Iowa in Elbert Hubbard’s family tree. So there currently is no proof to this story. In the case of L Ron Hubbard, I believe it is far more likely he was self-made than protected. I don't know, though, about his buds from earlier days, Jack Parsons and (a little more distantly) Aleister Crowley and their nice little crew, all of whom were Satanists. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: Things are steadily getting better for the almost seven billion people of planet earth. Brant, That's a very good point that is often lost in these kinds of discussions. There's also the fact that humans are far less violent today than they have ever been throughout history. I read The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined by Steven Pinker. The plethora of facts he cites is quite compelling. Modern wars can do major damage all at once, but humans as individuals are much more peaceful these days than they have ever been. The numbers don't lie. That means there are other forces that have to be included in the mix other than throwing rocks at a villain. But, still, that doesn't take away from the sheer evil of The Gang, nor The Gang's reach, but it is heartening to know they can (and will) be defeated in their dastardly designs. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 It is very rational to be sure the slaves experience steadily improving conditions (while praying they don’t wonder what would be if the bloodletting and suppression stopped.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Ellen Stuttle said: Michael, At this point, I might be more confused than Brant. You've clarified your meaning of "The Gang," but I don't feel sure I understand Jon's meaning, so I'll ask: Jon, are you thinking in terms of one group which has basically been trying to run the world to that group's advantage? If yes, for how long? How far back does this group go? (I'm of the opinion that there are interlocking and sometimes competing groups, and that they aren't so all-powerful as you seem to think.) And: How many members? (Ballpark figure.) It can't be that they're all family members if you classify practically everyone of whom you disapprove as part of The Gang. Ellen I don’t know. I suspect you two know more and for longer, than I. Four years ago I didn’t know anything. Had you asked me what is the Illuminati, Luciferianism, Freemasonry, Babylonian Mystery Religions, what were the Sumerians into? I’d have had nothing. I would have answered “Occult stuff. But I don’t know what that word means.” I do think we can be sure that they are good at hiding everything and none of our guesses stand much chance of steering around the misinfo, fake whistleblowers, etc. that cloud everything. History tells us that the “original” Illuminati was eliminated, period. No doubt in twenty years after some fierce battles we will again be assured it has been eliminated, period. I won’t believe it the second time, either. I think it is just as likely that when they were exposed in 17XX they decided upon that narrative. History also tells us that the Julii, Caesar’s family “died out.” And maybe they did all die, by the hands of some competing family who murdered them all, took their property and then convinced the plebs they too all died out. How convenient. If I win the lottery tomorrow, skip the taxes and “die out” you’ll know in fact I am probably really on a beach somewhere, right? And that’s just if I win the lottery. What if I rule the world? Doesn’t that make everyone want to kill me? Wouldn’t it be better for me, for us, the ruling team, if we were known to have “died out” so we can then create circles within circles as Michael described and go on ruling, unknown to all? So some teams I do believe go way, way back, and they know it, they are hyper-aware of their lineage. I think other teams, such as mafias, are more recent. As to is it being one or many interlocking, I see two possibilities. 1) Many teams have joined up in the last 100 years, for mutual survival. They got deep into evil and a more connected world could take one of them down, then another, then all. Their criminality and evil grew and I think each group came to understand they had to unite, each backing the other. The bloodline aristocratic satanists, the criminal mafias, the Nazis (“no, no, Jon, they died out.” Ha!) the Catholic Church, Hollywood, etc. All of them together as one interlocking system I call The Gang. I mean people who have their hands on levers, not their slaves. Jeffrey Epstein was just a slave. I don’t believe any of us have ever yet seen the faces or heard the real names of the people with their hands on the levers. 2) One very old, very successful team created or infiltrated all of the people’s and orgs mentioned in 1. I chose “The Gang” because it sounds vague and because I really don’t know exactly who. I think that Trump’s election precipitated yet more alliances of people into evil. They didn’t see that coming, believed their bosses had it all covered and it wasn’t going to be possible. They’re vulnerable now, they know they’re all on that terrible bastard’s target list and they have joined forces to stay alive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Wow, this is turning out to be quite a thread on the world's powerfully evil manipulators. Jon, thanks for your post above. That helps with why it sometimes seems to me that you're talking about just one group of allied long-lineaged families and other times about entwined groups, not necessarily all of them of the bloodlines. Michael, I ordered three books by Quigley, due to arrive tomorrow. I might actually watch the video you recommended, when I can afford the hour or so afterward of having my left eye go nuts. One point about Carl Barney: Michael, in one of your posts you said that you thought it was a mistake to think of him as just a con man. You spoke of desires for perfectibility. I'm doubtful that Barney ever had such desires. He seems to me to have seen self-improvement as a good gimmick to sell from the start. (It is very sellable.) A question to consider about any genuineness in his beliefs: Would someone into perfectibility rip off students by collecting educational loan money from them while not providing the educational services they were paying for? (No sincere advocate of Objectivism would do this, of course, Trader principle, anyone?) Ellen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said: You spoke of desires for perfectibility. I'm doubtful that Barney ever had such desires. Ellen, You're not wrong to think this, but it is based on the idea that people are consistent in their desires. Rand held such a view of humans, say, that of so-and-so liked a certain composer, so he couldn't possibly be an advocate of her kind of integrity and so on. I have come to the conclusion that the brain is a lot more modular than that. Sometimes there are inner conflicts and contradictory desires, depending on which part happens to be in running a neural network at the moment. (And thank God. Humans would be insufferably boring little carbon copies if that were not the case. ) This is a longer topic than I have time to write about right now, but I find one point important in evaluating Barney on this score--that he was mostly attracted to human perfectibility systems, ones that he studied, and not, say, Ponzi schemes and the like. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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