Incels


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7 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

 

"Incel" hooey reminds me of a graphic that explains much...

pajama_boy_2_smaller.jpg

Wolf,

LOL...

I want to say something to add to that, but it's too complete.

Maybe something about pajama-boy being testosterone-challenged or whatever, but it's nowhere near as funny as the graphic itself...

The thing is, I've seen lots of millenial girls be friends--protective friends--with pajama-boy, but they date the soldier.

:)

Michael

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"Does anyone have the right to sex?"

aRight2sexLRB.png

 

 

Edited by william.scherk
Added tweet noting Douhat's wacky column
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14 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I've seen lots of millenial girls be friends--protective friends--with pajama-boy, but they date the soldier.

The way I understand it, women marry for security and go over the hill to find a soldier of fortune to advance the gene pool.

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41 minutes ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

The way I understand it, women marry for security and go over the hill to find a soldier of fortune to advance the gene pool.

What woman  or women told you so,? So that you came to understand it.  

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Oh, the horror of it all!

Women marry for financial security, very important for husband to have a steady income.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/love-sex/72632931/men-want-beauty-women-want-financial-security-from-relationships

70 percent of women in relationships admit to having crushes on other guys, according to research from Indiana University.

https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a19547845/extramarital-crushes/

More and more women are jumping outside their marriages in search of no-strings-attached sex.

https://www.gq.com/story/ashley-madison-affair-cheating-site

“I’m nicer to my husband when I have something special going on that’s just for me.”

https://www.thecut.com/2017/09/why-women-cheat-esther-perel-state-of-affairs.html

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The horror of it all was the reason I put the topic here; a deranged man, fortified by a deranged online web community, killing as many women as he could with a van - luckily he could not get hold of an assault weapon, at least. The articles you cite are interesting, though I would hardly call GQ and Men's Health authorities on women's attitudes. I asked you what women you knew reinforced your opinions.

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8 hours ago, caroljane said:

... a deranged man, fortified by a deranged online web community, killing as many women as he could with a van...

Carol,

That's a very good identification.

It's the right size with the right attributes.

My only problem is when people take this and jack it up to mean or imply all men, all women, etc., then make that a widespread social problem that it is not, then use that as propaganda to push divisive political agendas and increase government over all. (That's the process diversity social justice always follows.)

And what happens when the government grows? Let's set aside inconveniences like covert mass surveillance, etc. Off we go to more endless wars for profit. Then you don't need to worry about looking down on Incels as the root of all evil. The engineered hatred gets an outlet in a very human thirst for blood, which gets well satisfied in endless war where some mighty righteous high-number killing of people happens. And certain individuals get awfully wealthy from it, but best not talk about those, hmmmm?

Politics-wise, the one President who should have taken the social justice kind of exaggerations I described and turned them into less war, President Obama, instead automated war with drones, made it even more covert, and actually increased the death raining down from the skies. The Middle East was already complicated and, incredibly, this doofus screwed it up even worse with more and more death. Hell, human slavery was making a comeback under him.

Here's the principle for those who pay attention. With less government, there is less war. With more government, there is more war.

People think more government for their side cures these ills. It does not. Government is a war machine. That's it's nature. And the bigger the government, the bigger the wars.

Mankind never learns this... and the beat goes on... and the beat goes on...

Today we root out Incels, tomorrow the world!

Do-gooders of the world, unite!

(Then watch everyone kill each other.)

:) 

Michael

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10 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Mankind never learns this... and the beat goes on... and the beat goes on...

People who generally think in terms of reality, causality, law of identity, etc. will understand my post.

People who generally replace reality with propositions in their thinking will not.

:)

One can falsify a proposition and it can still refer to something real. One cannot deny reality and have it still be real.

These are two main modes of default thinking and, I believe, one of the main reasons so many people talk past each other. Scott Adams calls it two people who see the same external facts, but see opposing movies in their heads about those facts. Both see the same thing and come to opposite conclusions. And both are sincere.

And how do I feel about that? Well... God help me if one day I ever lived in the world of words and propositions...

I luvs me some reality too much for that...

:) 

Michael

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The Incels idea is strange, to be consumed by this "condition" to the point of running over people with a van.  We are in a cultural decline today and that includes both men and women, but talk to a leftist feminist and they might tell you otherwise.  Actually, talk to some right leaning feminists and they might tell you that it's men as well.  There is a cultural bias that exists that many women have toward men, and this causes strange ideas to show up in men like "incel" and another that comes to mind is MGTOW.  Some men become aggressive, and some practice "pick-up artistry".

I'm for individual rights so in that way I suppose I am a "feminist", but I have met a lot of women that absolutely have a negative attitude toward men.  I've seen it at a distance with other people as well.  The few relationships that I've had turned out to be manipulative women, they put on a mask that they were kind and appropriate for a relationship, but they turned out to be terrible, manipulative people.  Of course I was angry, and I can see how a person can form a cynical attitude.  The van attacker had extreme issues, and if it wasn't 'incel' to be the ideology that led him to violence, it could have been something else for him later in life.

About the 'incel' idea itself, the priority that these men place sex first is concerning.  Perhaps if they would think in terms of values and first sharing values with other women, maybe they would have more successful relationships.

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1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said:

About the 'incel' idea itself, the priority that these men place sex first is concerning.  Perhaps if they would think in terms of values and first sharing values with other women, maybe they would have more successful relationships.

I don't get it (I've often suspected that I'm stupid). However, as interesting as sex certainly is and was during the last 50-some years, it's certainly true that romance and marriage is more than sex. It's comedy, drama, light entertainment, windstorm and hail damage, high speed chases, and quiet evenings at home. I wrote about it in 'The 51% Solution' under the heading of Marginal Utility.

Quote

Like jealous siblings, your first and second notions of "goodness" compete for moral supremacy – i.e., to be recognized as Prime Directive, governing all else in your spiritual life. Perhaps you'll recall that my No. 2 was a hyphenated notion of goodness: Survival/Comfort. I used those words because I thought it would be easier for you to understand, rather than the technical term Marginal Utility, which is pleasure greater than pain, in an economic universe wherein maximum pleasure results from uniform want-satisfaction. Whether we call it Survival/Comfort or marginal utility or something else is unimportant. What I'd like you to consider is the generality of this concept. It embraces an economic theory, a standard of value, and a thousand details of "goodness" and "virtue". This is the power and meaning of a conceptual predicate: a class of value-units that belong together and derive scope because they have an implicitly shared purpose.


For instance, being Happily Married is subsumed and included. So is paying the rent on time, eating fresh food, buying a new pair of shoes, and doing part-time jobs that make use of my skills (sound system engineering, video production) instead of working for minimum wage as an unskilled laborer. Marginal utility results in want-satisfaction on the carnal plane of life: pleasure greater than pain. It is governed by the principle of diminishing returns, such as the declining enjoyment of successive bites of food.

"The amount of one and the same enjoyment diminishes continuously as we proceed with that enjoyment without interruption, until satiety is reached."
(Hermann Heinrich Gossen)

Every aspect of Survival/Comfort involves some sort of trade-off between pleasure and pain. Marginal utility is the common sense strategy of maximizing pleasure. To be happily married, I must love and honor my wife, remain faithful and honest, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me, from time to time, when I have to admit an embarrassing truth, and work at making the relationship successful. It's worth the effort because I have a particularly wonderful partner: she knows and understands that my 51% is devoted to something other than being happily married or paying the rent. Her love, her moral support, the beauty of her soul and her intimate trust easily outweigh the pain I experience shopping, cooking dinner, hearing idiotic soap operas on our TV set, and knowing that someday we will be parted by illness and death. This is marginal utility in a nutshell. It is better to cherish my wife and someday lose her, than to have never loved at all.

 

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36 minutes ago, Wolf DeVoon said:
2 hours ago, KorbenDallas said:

About the 'incel' idea itself, the priority that these men place sex first is concerning.  Perhaps if they would think in terms of values and first sharing values with other women, maybe they would have more successful relationships.

I don't get it (I've often suspected that I'm stupid). However, as interesting as sex certainly is and was during the last 50-some years, it's certainly true that romance and marriage is more than sex. It's comedy, drama, light entertainment, windstorm and hail damage, high speed chases, and quiet evenings at home. I wrote about it in 'The 51% Solution' under the heading of Marginal Utility.

 

Wolf, I'm not sure what you don't get but I looked over the Incel Wikipedia entry when I was finding out what an Incel was, and this sentence stood out to me, "Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misanthropy,[4]misogyny, white supremacy and the endorsement of violence against sexually active women and more sexually successful men.[5][6][7][8][2][9][10] "  The Urban Dictionary and NPR articles I found on Incels also mention jealousy against sexually active women and men.  That's why I said incels are placing sex first in their minds, but if they were to think in terms of values and value sharing maybe they would have more successful relationships.  I was making a normative statement about relationships and values.

The urban dictionary reference I mentioned earlier, " aka "involuntarily celibate", a person (usually male) who has a horrible personality and treats women like sexual objects and thinks his lack of a sex life comes from being "ugly" when its really just his blatant sexism and terrible attitude. incels have little to no self awareness; even when they see other "ugly" men with girlfriends, they consider these men to be tricksters who have somehow beat the system and can get women despite being cursed with unattractiveness (in other words, theyre respectful to women and women are attracted to their personalities, but incels cant comprehend such a phenomenon). they believe that women owe them sex, and many of the more extreme incels like to spend time in incel communities on the internet coming up with ways to make women have sex with them..."

 

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10 hours ago, KorbenDallas said:

About the 'incel' idea itself, the priority that these men place sex first is concerning.

Korben,

Concept-wise, I put Incel in the same category as phrenology.

Just because a hodge-podge of characteristics can be lumped together, that does not mean there is causality involved for anything other than the observed characteristics. Yet people who use these terms not only make the oddest connections, they accept these connections into their belief system as inherent truth.

A lump on the head indicates what's in the brain. An Incel is a terrorist in the making because he can't get laid and feels emotionally conflicted about it. And so on.

Then they look at conspiracy theorists and pretend that they, themselves, are superior because they would never believe in something as silly as a conspiracy theory.

:)

Michael

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Talia Lavin tackles the Incel phenomena's grotesqueries (not least Ross Douhat's NYT 'explainer') ...

7 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I put Incel in the same category as phrenology.

theHarpyIncels.png

Edited by william.scherk
"Is there a phrenology of 'femoids'?"
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6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Korben,

Concept-wise, I put Incel in the same category as phrenology.

Just because a hodge-podge of characteristics can be lumped together, that does not mean there is causality involved for anything other than the observed characteristics. Yet people who use these terms not only make the oddest connections, they accept these connections into their belief system as inherent truth.

A lump on the head indicates what's in the brain. An Incel is a terrorist in the making because he can't get laid and feels emotionally conflicted about it. And so on.

Then they look at conspiracy theorists and pretend that they, themselves, are superior because they would never believe in something as silly as a conspiracy theory.

:)

Michael

Yes I agree, because someone who identifies themselves as Incel, doesn't mean that all Incels are terrorists.  That logic would end up disregarding essences.  One of the problems with the ideology is the "black pill" concept which the Incel Wikipedia entry says is, "'taking the black pill' was described by WBUR-FM as meaning 'I will now espouse violence, hatred and misogyny.'[56] "  I'm unsure about the violence part with "black pilling".  I'm not going to link directly to an Incel URL, but if someone scans this Heavy page, in the first point there is a link to one of the Incel's forums.  When I scanned over it, "black pilling" doesn't appear to necessarily include violence.  So it seems there are different degrees of aggression built into the Incel ideology through "black-pilling", from mistreatment, to levels of violence.

Concept-wise, I have a category called "false-concept", for false concepts and non-existent concepts.  Incel to me is a non-existent concept, so the people who identify with Incel are believing in a non-existent thing.  Looking at it briefly, it is a system that falls apart when one starts to consider essences, and psychologically if the individuals would practice self-responsiblity for their "condition" they might not identify with Incel.

And a disturbing thing in the ideology is idolizing or celebrating the Incel mass murderers, compared to something like MGTOW, which is passive from what I know about it.

So even though it's likely the van attacker had mental issues, he identified with this aggressive Incel ideology and felt that it empowered him, and this lead to existential action toward other people.  Unfortunately there will probably be another attack in the future by someone who identifies as Incel, so we likely haven't heard the last of the term.

Edited by KorbenDallas
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The Psycho-Episto-Frenology of Incelry

1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said:

I'm not going to link directly to an Incel URL, but if someone scans this Heavy page, in the first point there is a link to one of the Incel's forums. 

incelMeWebSnap.png

Edited by william.scherk
Trump-Whisperers, Alienists and Phlogiston: The Psycho-Episto-Frenology of Inceldom
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I just looked up the incels forum (Incels.me) to see the traffic stats.

Surprise... surprise... surprise...

This forum has only become a thing since December. Before that, it either didn't exist or was shit traffic-wise.

Look at the Alexa ranking:

05.04.2018-17.51.png

The way Alexa works is that the lower the number, the more the traffic. So the site with the most traffic in the world is Number 1.

Look at the massive growth of this forum from nothing in December or thereabouts. I smell astroturf and bots all over it. This is a typical setup for trading up the chain publicity. (In other words, it will be a reference source anchor for overworked writers. Sort of like the way William is using it. The reader is supposed to think, "Look at all that activity! This must be serious! They are coming to get us!")

But it's engineered traffic with automation. I bet if we find a way to dig, we will come up with about 10 individuals who represent 99% of the accounts and traffic through bots, fake accounts and proxies.

God knows what the dark side (and I don't mean the Incels) is planning with this, but planning something it is.

Michael

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More surprise... surprise... surprise...

From Breitbart:

Former Reddit CEO Asks Silicon Valley CEOs to Crackdown on ‘Incel’ Employees

Ellen Pao is an expert at this sort of campaign and making news out of nothing among the elites.

She's probably learned a few more tricks since she almost tanked Reddit single-handedly (and had to step down).

Scratch her and you will find the Soros crowd. Guaranteed.

Michael

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1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I just looked up the incels forum (Incels.me) to see the traffic stats.

Surprise... surprise... surprise...

This forum has only become a thing since December. Before that, it either didn't exist or was shit traffic-wise.

Look at the Alexa ranking:

05.04.2018-17.51.png

The way Alexa works is that the lower the number, the more the traffic. So the site with the most traffic in the world is Number 1.

Look at the massive growth of this forum from nothing in December or thereabouts. I smell astroturf and bots all over it. This is a typical setup for trading up the chain publicity. (In other words, it will be a reference source anchor for overworked writers. Sort of like the way William is using it. The reader is supposed to think, "Look at all that activity! This must be serious! They are coming to get us!")

But it's engineered traffic with automation. I bet if we find a way to dig, we will come up with about 10 individuals who represent 99% of the accounts and traffic through bots, fake accounts and proxies.

God knows what the dark side (and I don't mean the Incels) is planning with this, but planning something it is.

Michael

All this happened since December, and then a mass murder  was committed  in May by someone who claimed to be in sync with the incels, and the "dark side" who are not incels  are  planning something by arranging this?  I do not follow your reasoning here. 

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4 hours ago, caroljane said:

All this happened since December, and then a mass murder  was committed  in May by someone who claimed to be in sync with the incels, and the "dark side" who are not incels  are  planning something by arranging this?  I do not follow your reasoning here. 

Carol,

I'll try to go slow. :) 

Nobody had ever heard of Incels until quite recently except for a very tiny number of fringe people. Now, suddenly, the media is hollering their heads off about Incels as if this were a widely known thing for a long time like ISIS.

Whether you agree that this is strange or not (but it is as strange as all get out :) ), there is a fact of complex societies like the one we live in. When power is involved, powerful people who are threatened with change and about to lose their power do bad things to try to keep it. Also, people who don't have power and want it often do bad things to get it.

One of the favorite dark side tactics is to create chaos in order to create the need to impose order. The public clamors for order if the chaos is bad or has strong media impact. The ones who can supply that order are the ones the public will follow. One of the favorite covert ways of creating such chaos is to take unstable people and goose them until they do something atrocious like a killing spree. The unpredictability of this method allows for a great deal of deniability by the goosers. (btw - This technique is actually taught.)

I don't know the personal history of the guy who committed the killing in Toronto, but I would bet a lot of money (and win) that a "close friend" or "confident" came into his life not too long ago saying just the right things to bond with him--strongly bond with him from feeling his pain--and I would further bet that person is no longer around. If anyone starts looking, the Toronto killer will not be the only disturbed individual, either, who suddenly got a new friend. He was simply the one who crossed the line from the prompting. He wasn't the only one being pressured, but he was the one who popped. Nobody could predict the chaos and that is the reason this tactic is so effective.

ISIS and other Islamist groups recruit much the same way, except, instead of inducing their targets to go on a killing spree, they get their subjects to leave their country and families and join these organization to kill nonbelievers and establish a Caliphate.

This tactic works and works well. All anyone has to do is look and they can see it.

There is a psychological profile of people who are susceptible to outside suggestion on this level. Predatory organizations (like ISIS, dark side assholes, etc.) seek out Internet users with this profile based on their online activity. They are usually young males with deep insecurity issues, full of resentment and who feel powerless. The predators bond by validating their insecurities and bad feelings, then mold them by suggesting things to do to cure it all. This tactic may be targeted to a specific profile of young insecure males, but underneath it is garden variety pacing and leading taught in any persuasion system.

The fact that there has been such a strong increase in media activity (along with things like the bots on the Incel forum) leads me to believe the recent chaos in Toronto was orchestrated by some Very Nasty People either within government or within groups that want to take power in government. Since the Incels the media are bashing have a male profile (despite Heavy pointing out that it was females on the fringe who came up with the term and formalized it), I imagine the hard-left wing of the feminist movement is somehow involved. This wing has gotten a lot of power recently in Canadian politics, so much so you guys now have double-digit genders written into law. 

As a final note, the dude who shot up a lot of girls in California because he couldn't get a date was not all that recent, however, he is being used as an example of Incel violence as if he were. I don't think that loser was triggered by a "sudden friend," though. I think he was just a spoiled asshole who flipped out.

From a different angle, there is a lot of talk about the sheer number of mass murderers who took psychotropic medicines like serotonin uptake inhibitors for a time before they went berserk and started killing. This would not explain the media propaganda campaigns, but I believe side effects from psychotropic medicine could be a contributing factor.

When gobs of money and gobs of power can be seen near tragic lethal events in society, and coincidentally, there are hamhanded propaganda efforts pumping right along beside them, I have a real hard time believing in the propaganda. I have a much easier time looking at who is to gain from the the gobs of money and gobs of power and think they might be interested helping that outcome along.

I think this way re endless war for profit, too.

I despise people who get their wealth and power from the killing humans market, even more so when unsuspecting innocent humans are the ones killed. This goes for those who engineer the killing humans processes that comprise this market.

They are the moral scum of our species. Good people don't like to believe they exist or actually manage to do bad things, but they exist and they do bad things.

Michael

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