How do you know murder is wrong?

[Brant Gaede]

23 minutes ago, moralist said:

They're only fuzzy devils to Bob and the secular liberals who acknowledge nothing greater than the government that suckles them. Morality and immorality don't confuse decent people because they know by their Conscience what's right and wrong...

...so why is it such a vexing problem for Bob?

Greg

Suddenly you don't know.

--Brant

[moralist]

24 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

Suddenly you don't know.

--Brant

It's obviously rhetorical, Brant...   

 

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

The view from "higher standards."

(I guess...    )

Michael

Just being realistic.  Not all human problems are neatly solvable. 

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

There is morality, which we can call "basic." From that we get moral and immoral (actions). Morality is only reflected by the politic. It resides in the person.

When all is reckoned what we have is our basic  moral intuitions.  Morality is not formalizable.  It is not algorithmic.   There is no computer program that will produce  infallible moral judgments.  We have to use not only our brains,  but our gut.  

[Brant Gaede]

8 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

When all is reckoned what we have is our basic  moral intuitions.  Morality is not formalizable.  It is not algorithmic.   There is no computer program that will produce  infallible moral judgments.  We have to use not only our brains,  but our gut.  

Finally! You have a "gut"!

--Brant

then you use your brain on your gut

[Brant Gaede]

43 minutes ago, moralist said:

It's obviously rhetorical, Brant...   

Greg

I'm glad you found your way around me.

--Brant

the jaws that bite, the claws that catch . . .

[anthony]

On 2017/05/10 at 11:29 PM, gio said:

Hi anthony! I didn't say christians are worse or better than leftists. I said that irrationality leads more easily to murder than rationality (because fundamentally, irrationality is the realm of arbitrariness). And the idea of God is irrational.
Thus, someone whose morality stems from God (or any other irrationnal idea) will be more inclined to murder than someone whose morality stems from reason.

Gio,

"Irrationality leads more easily to murder..." indeed. Does that mean though that all secularists are automatically "rational", only by the simple fact that they gave up God? Becoming 'atheist' is all it takes to be confered with "reason"? That looks wrong to me. Definitely, an unchanged altruist ethics is what most new atheists remain with. You recall what Rand wrote about the mystics and skeptics being just different sides of the "same counterfeit coin"? The skeptic, in her account, is simply a disappointed ex-mystical intrinsicist, who didn't receive the Revelation he expected, so gave up on individual knowledge(-conceptualism, morality, value). I've observed enough times that phenomenon with people I've known, and read some chunks of other philosophers, that I believe this to be true.

Instead of only reviewing and contrasting religions themselves, I'd like you to consider this next level down, mysticism (and "neo-mysticism"). In there is the common irrationality that causes murder and excuses it. The secular Left today are as much neo-mystics, it seems clear, who've made a transference from Godly Faith - to having "faith" in a whole lot of other things, starting with Statism and egalitarianism, through to 'Multiculturalism'..

This bunch, in political terms loosely "Leftist" and "Progressivist", have much of the political power, since they haven't separated their "Church" from State and are bound not to! They are never broadly recognized as "the secular religious" (as AR named them) and a religion in itself, so they can justify real murder on a large scale - or ignore and evade it - and there is the reason philosophical skeptics are our greater present danger. They could certainly be capable of "believing in absurdities" that leads to "commiting atrocities" like any Fundamentalist killers in certain circumstances. Evidently a skeptic struggles to find a reason why certain acts against man's life are evil. They refer to their emotions in place of reason. In fact, we see that he/she will seldom make the judgment call of "evil", they shrivel up in self-doubt when it comes to standing firm for their Western freedoms (which they are steadily losing)  to a religion of conviction and aggressive self-sacrifice- for instance. Yeah, I think skeptics are retreaded mystics...but without the conviction and certainty.

[Wolf DeVoon]

11 minutes ago, anthony said:

"Irrationality leads more easily to murder..." indeed.

A bald assertion, contrary to evidence. Gang wars in Chicago are not irrational acts. It's war.

[moralist]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:29 PM, gio said:

 And the idea of God is irrational.

Secular liberal notions of God are certainly irrational... while the objective moral reality of God is completely rational. For He clearly stated:

"You shall not murder."

You're long gone, so do any of the other liberal secularists here regard that statement to be irrational?

That evil people murder in the name of a god is not the fault of God. Only liberal secularists irrationally blame (unjustly accuse) God for that, not those who know He exists. For only the rational understand that people are held personally accountable for their own actions by the objective moral reality of the just and deserved consequences those who do evil set into motion..

Greg

 

[moralist]

14 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

Gang wars in Chicago are not irrational acts.

Gang war is certainly not irrational to liberal secularists, Wolf. For them, fighting over drugs, money, and addicted customers is a perfectly rational way to exist and to perish.

Only valueless creatures exist and perish... decent men live and die.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

7 hours ago, moralist said:

the objective moral reality of God is completely rational. For He clearly stated...

 

You're a sick puppy, dude.

[moralist]

1 hour ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

 

You're a sick puppy, dude.

That's your subjective opinion as a secular libertine, Wolf.

The objective reality is that at 69 I'm quite healthy and happy. I'm vegetarian and do physical work outside as well as gardening hiking and bicycling. I don't drink alcohol, use drugs, or smoke cigarettes or pot. I haven't taken so much as one aspirin in over 50 years. I'm happily married to a good woman and together we cleared land and built our own Galt's Gulch like modern day pioneers.

Long ago a very wise man said:

"Don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is within you, whom you have received as a gift from God, and that you are not your own property? You were bought with a price and were actually purchased with the precious blood of Jesus and made His own. So then, honor and glorify God with your body."

...so I take good care of mine because I need it to do good by making the world a better place. And like any other high quality well maintained appliance, it's rewarding me with a long and useful service life. Doing what God advises me to do isn't the least bit irrational . It's perfectly logical because it's what's best for me and my life... and I have the results as my proof.

What results do you have as proof that your life as a secular libertine is working out for you?

(...crickets...)

In my subjective opinion as a religious moralist, you're the sick puppy, Wolf. You're the sucker who got swindled by your own collectivist liberal fantasy that someone else would build your utopia for you and take care of you, instead of taking the individual personal initiative to build your own.

Jeez, in your picture you look like a decomposing mushroom.

Go outside and get some Sun.

Greg

 

 

[Brant Gaede]

Take one adult dose aspirin a week. Make sure you get potassium in your diet. (You probably do.) Check your blood pressure at the pharmacy.

--Brant

don't be a victim of your suppositions

[BaalChatzaf]

15 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

A bald assertion, contrary to evidence. Gang wars in Chicago are not irrational acts. It's war.

when Bad Boys (of a darker complexion)  fight over territory, assets, and wealth  it is called crime.  When Nations do the same thing it is called Nationalism.  When warriors of a lighter complexion  fight the same fort of fight  it is called glory and bravery.   Go figure....

[Peter]

Ba’al wrote: When warriors of a lighter complexion fight the same fort of fight it is called glory and bravery. end quote 

Haven’t you ever heard of The Black Knight? Or: chiv·al·ry: the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak. courteous behavior, especially that of a man toward women. synonyms: gallantry · gentlemanliness · courtesy · courteousness · politeness · graciousness · mannerliness.

I do think the Crusades were an attempt at unlawful conquest and theft, much like the later Nazis and the USSR, and not a good time for whites as a group or for their religion which legitimized Christian theft.

Now if a religionist hears his god whispering in his ear, would he slay the dragon or just the unbelievers? Well, since dragons don’t exist, he would butcher the infidels with no qualms, because Allah, Budda, Christ, Zeus, Apollo, or whatever fantasy god he thinks exist, told him to, or wrote it down “supposedly” a long, long time ago.   

Peter  

[anthony]

59 minutes ago, Peter said:

Now if a religionist hears his god whispering in his ear, would he slay the dragon or just the unbelievers? Well, since dragons don’t exist, he would butcher the infidels with no qualms, because Allah, Budda, Christ, Zeus, Apollo, or whatever fantasy god he thinks exist, told him to, or wrote it down “supposedly” a long, long time ago.   

Peter  

Peter, your list is far from full. How bout Stalin, Pol Pot -- etc --and all the other gods revered by secularists? As I say, atheism isn't an automatic pass to rationality and sanity. 

[moralist]

14 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Take one adult dose aspirin a week. Make sure you get potassium in your diet. (You probably do.) Check your blood pressure at the pharmacy.

--Brant

don't be a victim of your suppositions

I eat vegetables grains nuts fruit eggs and a little diary so there's really no need to get anything in my diet. There's also no reason to take aspirins either, although I believe it's just fine for others to compensate for the consequences of their lifestyle in any way they see fit to do so. We have our own blood pressure monitor and test anytime we want at home.

It makes secular libertine intellectuals (not necessarily you) feel good about themselves to piss on God...

... but what they don't realize is that they're also pissing on the objective reality of totally rational Divinely designed time tested moral standards of behavior which exist for our own health and happiness so we can live a good quality life and become better people.

Satan made an offer to Job: "Curse God and die." ...and he is still making the very same offer today... and the dumb secular libertines are flocking to him to take him up on his offer to feel good about themselves instead of actually being good.

 

Doing what's morally right is for our own good... not God's.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

The God of DNA only wants you to reproduce. After that we live on biological inertia. Because both sides on my family have lived into their 90s, I'm likely to do the same. That's my genetic endowment. Hardly any heart disease, etc.

But I'm not taking anything for granted nor am I counting on "God."

--Brant

[moralist]

4 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

The God of DNA only wants you to reproduce. After that we live on biological inertia. Because both sides on my family have lived into their 90s, I'm likely to do the same. That's my genetic endowment. Hardly any heart disease, etc.

But I'm not taking anything for granted nor am I counting on "God."

--Brant

Just take your aspirins, Brant, and you'll be fine.

DNA has no God... only men.

My Dad died at 50. His Brother died at 51. And his Sister died at 46. Genes aren't always determinants. People choose from an endless buffet of self inflicted self destructive behaviors which degrade the quality of their own lives. 

I don't count on God because I'm the only one who is personally responsible for how my own life unfolds according to the consequences of my own actions. 

So what I do count on is doing my very best to live according to the infinite wisdom of His moral laws... because by following their rational advice I'm acting in harmony with objective reality, and my life is blessed accordingly.

"And we know with great confidence that God who is deeply concerned about us causes all things to work together as a plan for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose.

Anyone... regardless of what they believe... who acts rationally in harmony with the objective reality of moral law will be blessed with happiness and abundance.

And those who stubbornly act contrary to the objective reality of Divine moral law get the self inflicted ass kicking they deserve.

 

 

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

This is a fun thread. Greg is so rational and everyone else isn't. (?!?!?)

The reality is he's reduced himself to the size of reality he can deal with while the rest of us have bitten off more than we can chew--I guess--and: Is it the wrong stuff in our mouths?

--Brant

gag, cough, gag, cough--choke, choke, choke!

[moralist]

5 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

This is a fun thread. Greg is so rational and everyone else isn't. (?!?!?)

The reality is he's reduced himself to the size of reality he can deal with while the rest of us have bitten off more than we can chew--I guess--and: Is it the wrong stuff in our mouths?

--Brant

gag, cough, gag, cough--choke, choke, choke!

Brant, I'm not objective.

I'm a completely subjective being... and so is everyone else. No one is objective. They can only either act in agreement or disagreement with objective reality.

I can only subjectively choose to act in harmony with the objective reality of Divine moral law. What you, or anyone else chooses to do is completely up to you...

...and you and everyone else here have the objective reality of the results in your own lives to indicate to you how well you have chosen.

 

You are spot on about the size of my reality, Brant. That's a truly insightful comment!   

The only objective reality I deal with is everyone and everything with which I am in direct contact. That is my personal sphere of influence over which I have control and for which I'm personally accountable. Everything else outside my personal sphere of influence is under the control and the responsibility of others.

I have no control over what everyone else watches on network television news... and that's why I never watch it. I will not allow mainstream media form my view of the world. I have my own view of that which I'm directly connected and with which I'm personally involved.

The stupid people who waste their time watching TV news have absolutely no control over what they're watching. They only think they do... which is a fool's fantasy.

Television network news is designed solely to upset people by making them angry and fearful...

...because  their own emotions to which they are slaves have the power to capture their attention and keep it fixated to the screen.

In this society, captured attention is money and power and control.

 So while people are fixated on things over which they have no control...

...the things in their own lives over which they do have control go to hell.

So you could say that my focus is completely local. It's one reason I live in a small rural village of 8,000 people instead of a city of millions.

(and yes... this is a fun thread because I love to have fun...   )

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

9 hours ago, moralist said:

Brant, I'm not objective...

...this is a fun thread because I love to have fun...  

Greg

Well. So much for murder.

[atlashead]

Dagny was in the right killing the soldier.

[Brant Gaede]

15 minutes ago, atlashead said:

Dagny was in the right killing the soldier.

It was the guard.

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

Shows the futility of guardship.