Brant Gaede Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 No contract can over-ride the mother's subsequent decision. The contract is only to benefit the father. It's like a one-sided prenuptial agreement with a penalty to the weaker party. Why a man would marry a woman of such low self esteem as to sign that is the obvious question? Prince Charles and Princess Diana? You can't abort a future King of England!--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 No contract can over-ride the mother's subsequent decision. The contract is only to benefit the father. It's like a one-sided prenuptial agreement with a penalty to the weaker party. Why a man would marry a woman of such low self esteem as to sign that is the obvious question? Prince Charles and Princess Diana? You can't abort a future King of England!--BrantNonsense. Sorry. Are you anticipating Deanna's reply? Why don't you just wait for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 No contract can over-ride the mother's subsequent decision. The contract is only to benefit the father. It's like a one-sided prenuptial agreement with a penalty to the weaker party. Why a man would marry a woman of such low self esteem as to sign that is the obvious question? Prince Charles and Princess Diana? You can't abort a future King of England!--BrantNonsense. Sorry. Are you anticipating Deanna's reply? Why don't you just wait for the reply.My apologies to Deanna, whom I do want to hear from. And now I wish she had been first.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dldelancey Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Then I misunderstood you, or else you misspoke. I inferred your meaning to be that her argument didn't just stay in your mind, but that it changed your mind.Regarding decisions about a specific pregnancy, you're right in that there is no equality of sexes. As long as the unborn is part of the mother's body, then the decisions are hers to make. It was my true story, so it was on me to be clear. Her argument, which was valid in terms of her assumptions, did stay in my mind and eventually supported my modification of my position that the "right" to terminate a pregnancy should have limitations. Additionally, the more that technology has accelerated, the more options have been created that could preserve that life in utero.As to your second point Deanna, my argument has been made here before and it is a "what if" argument:If the two parents, let's say they are Objectivists, and, being Objectivists, they want everything to be clear and in writing, so they draft up an ante-nuptual/relationship [aka pre-nup/relationship] and in the document, they agree that if there is a pregnancy, both parents have a right to any fetus in utero.Additionally, they agree that only a Doctor could override the decision to go through with the pregnancy if the life of the mother was in danger.Moreover, they both agree that any termination of the pregnancy shall have the unanimous consent of both parents unless a Doctor steps in under the prior clause.In that specific situation, would your statement still be in effect for that couple?A...I'd say that's a contractual agreement and should be managed/respected the same as any other. However, that kind of contract gives me, personally, the heebie jeebies in the same way that a contract describing indentured servitude would give me the heebie jeebies. The analyst in me wants to look deeper into that scenario to determine why a couple in a relationship would make such a legal agreement. That is, assuming it is a healthy, rational, committed relationship... seeing as how they are Objectivists and all. Like Brant, I have to wonder about the woman who signs that contract, a woman who is willing to sign over that kind of control of her body. But then, I've been pregnant, so I know what that truly means. :-)Both men and women have lots of reproductive choices. I'm not usually very popular for saying so, but I also think both men and women should have the same parental choices. By that I mean a man should not be allowed to force a woman to become a parent by giving birth NOR should a woman be allowed to force a man to become a parent by her act of giving birth. That's the point of (in)equality that is of concern to me. A man should have right of refusal within a defined timeframe of learning about the pregnancy, regardless of paternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Then I misunderstood you, or else you misspoke. I inferred your meaning to be that her argument didn't just stay in your mind, but that it changed your mind.Regarding decisions about a specific pregnancy, you're right in that there is no equality of sexes. As long as the unborn is part of the mother's body, then the decisions are hers to make. It was my true story, so it was on me to be clear. Her argument, which was valid in terms of her assumptions, did stay in my mind and eventually supported my modification of my position that the "right" to terminate a pregnancy should have limitations. Additionally, the more that technology has accelerated, the more options have been created that could preserve that life in utero.As to your second point Deanna, my argument has been made here before and it is a "what if" argument:If the two parents, let's say they are Objectivists, and, being Objectivists, they want everything to be clear and in writing, so they draft up an ante-nuptual/relationship [aka pre-nup/relationship] and in the document, they agree that if there is a pregnancy, both parents have a right to any fetus in utero.Additionally, they agree that only a Doctor could override the decision to go through with the pregnancy if the life of the mother was in danger.Moreover, they both agree that any termination of the pregnancy shall have the unanimous consent of both parents unless a Doctor steps in under the prior clause.In that specific situation, would your statement still be in effect for that couple?A...I'd say that's a contractual agreement and should be managed/respected the same as any other. However, that kind of contract gives me, personally, the heebie jeebies in the same way that a contract describing indentured servitude would give me the heebie jeebies. The analyst in me wants to look deeper into that scenario to determine why a couple in a relationship would make such a legal agreement. That is, assuming it is a healthy, rational, committed relationship... seeing as how they are Objectivists and all. Like Brant, I have to wonder about the woman who signs that contract, a woman who is willing to sign over that kind of control of her body. But then, I've been pregnant, so I know what that truly means. :-)Both men and women have lots of reproductive choices. I'm not usually very popular for saying so, but I also think both men and women should have the same parental choices. By that I mean a man should not be allowed to force a woman to become a parent by giving birth NOR should a woman be allowed to force a man to become a parent by her act of giving birth. That's the point of (in)equality that is of concern to me. A man should have right of refusal within a defined timeframe of learning about the pregnancy, regardless of paternity.Precisely.I posit that contract as a way of explaining that in a real relationship with two folks who love each other and mutually chose to have a child and are either married or unmarried have an area of commitment that provides both potential parents with a degree of input into the decision to terminate a pregnancy when the life of the mother is not in jeopardy, e.g., secretly deciding to abort the child in the 32 week.I also understand your second point as to "reproductive choices." The man has the original choice and should use it. He is responsible to control his own sperm responsibly.As you are aware, the woman also has numerous reproductive choices.Interesting option of a right of refusal, first time I have run across that. Lol, bet you do not get a Christmas card from Planned Parenthood.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The man has the original choice and should use it. It amazes me how much this simple truth goes ignored.It's as if everything that follows occurs completely outside of the laws of causation... ...effect without cause! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The man has the original choice and should use it. It amazes me how much this simple truth goes ignored.It's as if everything that follows occurs completely outside of the laws of causation... ...effect without cause! I have drilled that into every young man that I have ever known.The despicable CSSA has made it an easy sale.Just the way I taught the defensive driving program - the one universal idea that a young male can at least seriously consider is his wallet.You have a kid today and he is a construction worker making $34,000 per year.He has one unexpected child and he begins to pay approximately $114.00 per week with full post tax dollars. You do the math.Lot you can buy boy with an extra $450.00 per month. Nice car payment for that Mustang V convertible.Oh, by the way, you have to pay $150.00 per month for the family plan under the PPACA.Wait for the ballet lessons for the boy...A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I believe that all the responsibility is on men.If they behave decently, women will gladly follow suit.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I believe that all the responsibility is on men.If they behave decently, women will gladly follow suit.GregThe comforting male illusion women tolerate, even encourage, for while man smart, women smarter.--Branthttps://youtu.be/kTDvCLAT8hg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dldelancey Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ah, yes, let's absolve women of all personal responsibility, that fixes everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ah, yes, let's absolve women of all personal responsibility, that fixes everything.Whether she's a woman or just a female is her responsibility.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ah, yes, let's absolve women of all personal responsibility, that fixes everything.Whether she's a woman or just a female is her responsibility.GregIf he's a man or just a male . . .--Brantlet's get properly inclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ah, yes, let's absolve women of all personal responsibility, that fixes everything.Whether she's a woman or just a female is her responsibility.GregIf he's a man or just a male . . .--Brantlet's get properly inclusiveThat's a given. I was responding to Deanna's comment.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ah, yes, let's absolve women of all personal responsibility, that fixes everything.Whether she's a woman or just a female is her responsibility.GregIf he's a man or just a male . . .--Brantlet's get properly inclusiveThat's a given. I was responding to Deanna's comment.GregI was responding to your sexism.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ah, yes, let's absolve women of all personal responsibility, that fixes everything.Whether she's a woman or just a female is her responsibility.GregIf he's a man or just a male . . .--Brantlet's get properly inclusiveThat's a given. I was responding to Deanna's comment.GregI was responding to your sexism.--BrantNow I am confused. Deanna's remark was not sexist and Greg's was? Help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dldelancey Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Deanna's remark was sarcasm and meant to make light of the notion that poor little women simply need a decent man to follow, per Greg's instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Whatever happened to the good old days when women were chattel?(ducking...)Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Deanna's remark was sarcasm and meant to make light of the notion that poor little women simply need a decent man to follow, per Greg's instructions.https://youtu.be/5JVhbusBDi4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 This one works a little better for Greg lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 This one works a little better for Greg lolWe LOVE that movie. I'll bet my wife and I have watched it at least 50 times.And what a timely omen, Adam... I was just with the Nun's today fixing their air conditioner.Lovely ladies... Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Deanna's remark was sarcasm and meant to make light of the notion that poor little women simply need a decent man to follow, per Greg's instructions.A good woman who follows a good man out of her love of what's right will never be poor, Deanna. She will be happy and rich for the rest of her life. Females on the other hand... they get exactly the males they deserve who are exactly as indecent as they are..If woman is not a man's daughter... she's a male's mother! Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I was responding to your sexism.That's what the leftists do, Brant.RacistSexistBigotXenophobeHomophobeIslamiphobeIf recognizing the obvious differences between the sexes is "sexism"... then so be it, I'm "sexist". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Back to the topic just in case there is anyone here who hasn't had enough leftist "Dr. Mengele" gore for the day...http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/28/planned-parenthood-investigation-reportedly-shows-doctors-discussing-how-to-maximize-revenue-from-sale-of-fetal-tissue-graphic-footage/If these atrocities reach critical mass, America will be destroyed... because it will have deserved to be destroyed.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Orthogonal is not the direction to go when solving problems. The discussion was about unborn babies and whether our culture reflected in our laws should revere them as potentially valuable members or be indifferent to their fate. I think the amount of reverence you have for unborn babies reflects your valuing of human beings in general. Casually talking about the dismemberment of babies over lunch rightly caused outrage.This is a difficult subject. I have known very ardent libertarians who were against abortion and would argue fiercely about infants rights. The pregnant mothers were simply regarded as irresponsible having been totally in control of getting into the situation in the first place. The behind the scenes social engineering going on and implemented by encouraging abortion is another outrage. Definitely a third rail subject, designed to be so by elements on all sides of the political spectrum. Unfortunately it benefits the left liberal social engineers far more than the right by guaranteeing the women's vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Fucking GHOULS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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