SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said: Soon the taxes won't cover them And then they will borrow, and then people won't buy treasuries, and they will print, and eventually it all busts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 18 minutes ago, SteveWolfer said: Globalist - cronies - is a slur... Steve, Not if it is factual. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 minute ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Not if it is factual. It is a slur until there is some reasonable evidence that would make it a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, SteveWolfer said: It is a slur until there is some reasonable evidence that would make it a fact. Steve, If you don't look, you won't see. You, yourself, said you know very little about Koch companies, but you are certain the Koch brothers have integrity. That, to me, sounds like an evaluation based on very little evidence, much less reasonable evidence. I cannot make that evaluation or the contrary. From what I know so far (from looking), I would put it somewhere in the middle. When I started looking, I found reasonable evidence to start doubting the image they project with their libertarian and conservative ideological projects. And the more I look, the more the doubts grow. So, for me, this is not a slur. When I say these things, they are within the parameters I already said, no more no less. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 34 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: you are certain the Koch brothers have integrity. That, to me, sounds like an evaluation based on very little evidence, much less reasonable evidence. I cannot make that evaluation or the contrary. I didn't say I was certain, I said, "I think the Koch brothers have integrity" - That's based upon watching an hour long interview with Charles Koch, reading their Wikipedia page, knowing where they put their political support money, and about some of their political campaigns - what evidence I do have says they have integrity. I have zero evidence to the contrary and I've already seen that the slur about supporting Hillary is phony. You've already participated in making a negative evaluation of them without evidence when you passed on that statement about them being globalists and cronies. I don't know why I'm the one trying defend men who aren't guilty of anything worse than not wanting to give money to Trump. This business of treating them like bad guys and suggesting that if the research were done it would prove them bad is not how I roll. I get the evidence first. Sorry, Michael, but this feels to me like the kind of argument I want no part of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 3 hours ago, SteveWolfer said: The best long term position is to pressure the oligarchs with massive harm to their financial interests ? Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 2 hours ago, SteveWolfer said: And then they will borrow, and then people won't buy treasuries My memory is failing, could have sworn I wrote something about "good collateral" recently. I did. Found it on my hard drive, but hadn't found a place to post it. Maybe this is as good a time and place as any. It's more difficult nowadays for the United States to do anything about money. It flies too fast across electronic exchanges. Financial institutions worldwide are dependent upon the U.S. Treasury for its debt, rather than our $100 bills. Cash is a mere spit in the bucket compared to our $20 trillion in Federal promises to pay in the future, which is known as "good collateral" -- highest rated security you can pledge to a lender who will pledge it to someone else. That's not what happens in detail, but the main idea is that U.S. debt is sought after, desirable and vital to banking and investments of all kinds everywhere on earth. Debt issued by other governments stink in comparison to U.S. Treasury "good collateral." The United States is the most powerful national government on earth -- an opinion held by pension funds and foreign dictators who want to save for a rainy day. Obligations of the U.S. government are a safe bet. No matter what happens, the United States is likely to survive best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, wolfdevoon said: Good luck with that. Your suggestion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I think we should keep in mind that Russia is quite small in population, compared to EU, USA, and certainly China and India. Russia has strategic leverage as one of the world's largest oil and gas producers, currently supplies most of Europe's energy needs. This gets quite complicated and explains what's happening in Syria, why Russia backs Assad and Iran, vs Saudi Arabia and Qatar. We're damn fools IMO to back the Sunni dictators and their cutthroat proxies, but it has been U.S. policy for decades, because they recycle petrodollars. It would be far better to withdraw our 5th Fleet and let Arabia and Iran destroy each other. Nobody likes that option. Arabia supplies Japan, South Korea, Germany, India, China and SE Asia. Another angle on Russia is our collaboration in space, long-standing partnership as permanent members of the Security Council, and as economic counterweight to China. As for "oligarchs" we have plenty of our own: Warren Buffett, Jeff Bezos, the Google boys, Goldman Sachs revolving door, etc. I guess you need to say what particularly upsets you about Russia? They've been less imperialistic than the United States in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, wolfdevoon said: what particularly upsets you about Russia? Putin and his intentions are upsetting. He wants to reinstitute the USSR. I don't have any great answers to these problems. As long as there are people like Islamic fundamentalist with regional power and money, as long as an ex-KGB thug like Putin wasn't to make Russia into another USSR, there won't be any easy answers. If there was a thug in a neighborhood that kept mugging people and robbing them, they wouldn't be tolerated. If most of the governments of the world were mature and rational they wouldn't tolerate the Islamic Theocracies, North Korea, Putin, etc. And it isn't our government's job to fix the world - only to protect us. Protecting us means deciding when and where to intervene. If it were up to me I'd intervene in Iran at this point. The rest... not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, SteveWolfer said: He wants to reinstitute the USSR. baffled ... You know this how? Separately, I think it's likely that Russia could blackmail Hillary with emails and other media like voice recordings. Vote Trump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, SteveWolfer said: Sorry, Michael, but this feels to me like the kind of argument I want no part of. Steve, I agree. It's tiring me, too. This stuff (X is bad, no X is good, etc. etc., etc.) doesn't deal with ideas and ideas are the things that turn me on. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, wolfdevoon said: baffled ... You know this how? You don't think he wants to expand the boundaries or current Russia? 18 minutes ago, wolfdevoon said: Separately, I think it's likely that Russia could blackmail Hillary with emails and other media like voice recordings. Vote Trump! Russia has lots of choices with Hillary - blackmail, bribe, or threaten force. I am a NeverHillary person. Still not a vote Trump person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveWolfer Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: This stuff (X is bad, no X is good, etc. etc., etc.) doesn't deal with ideas and ideas are the things that turn me on. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Ironically, today I have to cross off Michael Prescott for discussions about Trump. He, like Biddibob, said he wanted to discuss the ideas, but basically these guys want a punching bag. They want to call Trump and his supporters all kinds of names, denigrate our mental capabilities, call us bigots, unprincipled, etc., (what's worse, it's usually cribbed from mainstream media talking points), but they start getting pissed when I don't cower in shame, but instead make a case for Trump (similar to what I do here) that is not based on their mainstream media talking points. They get really really pissed when, after they go beyond a certain limit, I point out they are hating. KABOOM! Man can they get hateful when I say that. They can get ridiculous, too. For example, Michael told me recently that by supporting Trump, I have no right to even talk about hate. (William is going to ask anyway, so for those interested, see here. ) Oh well. Let them hate, but without me around... Besides, Trump is winning and that makes Trump haters fit to be tied. Who wants to put his face in front of someone else's spittle when you know they are going to hawk and let 'er fly? Politically and intellectually, they have lost relevance for me. And no, despite all the hateful things they have said so far, I didn't unfriend them on Facebook. That's the kind of silly stuff I don't do. I'm just not commenting anymore on their posts and over time. I expect the drift to continue. If they ever want to talk with me, they know where to reach me. At least these guys write pretty decent fiction. Not great, but pretty good. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 A couple of Trump tweets about the Clinton audience and the Trump audience: Crooked's stop in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, where jobs have been absolutely decimated by dumb politicians, drew less than 200 - with Bill, VP— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 30, 2016 Nielson Media Research final numbers on ACCEPTANCE SPEECH: TRUMP 32.2 MILLION. CLINTON 27.8 MILLION. Thank you!— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 31, 2016 Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The polling BS is getting thick, too. From Breitbart: Exclusive: Pat Caddell Blasts Reuters’ Back-Rigging Polls to Show Clinton Winning Sad... (as Trump would say)... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 11 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: That's not a slur. That's called research. I see. It's "research" if the target is the Koch brothers, but a slur if the target is Donald Trump. Also, see 6th or 7th paragraph here. Donald Trump: ‘Eminent Domain Is Wonderful’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 9 hours ago, wolfdevoon said: Beneficiaries paid in only a fraction compared to what they receive [ ] That fraction in my own case (and many others) is pretty high. Social Security - What a Deal! "Payback" as used in my article is benefits/taxes, the inverse of wolfdevoon's implicit taxes/benefits. "Money's worth ratios", i.e. benefits/taxes, recently published by the Social Security Administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 16 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Trump's response? KABOOM! Maureen Dowd: On the poignant appearance of Muslim lawyer Khizr Khan and his wife, whose son, Humayun, an Army captain, posthumously received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart and was buried at Arlington National Cemetery after he was killed by a suicide bomber in Iraq in 2004. As his wife, Ghazala, stood silently by his side, Khan held up a copy of the Constitution and asked Trump if he had ever read it and said, “You have sacrificed nothing.” Donald Trump: “I’d like to hear his wife say something.” Let me repeat that: KABOOM! That's from the New York Times article of yesterday (July 29) by Maureen Dowd: Trump’s Thunderbolts. Michael I wouldn't be too proud of that one, Michael. Attacking the mother of someone who died in war will lose him votes. The people that love Trump trolling may like this the same they used to admire the cool guy in junior high having the guts to do another spit ball, but undecided voters will not. Oh, and this will not help him with women either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 21 minutes ago, PDS said: I wouldn't be too proud of that one, Michael. I agree. A much better response from Trump would have been to say that Hillary voted for the second Iraq War and the only thing Hillary has sacrificed is other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 25 minutes ago, PDS said: I wouldn't be too proud of that one, Michael. Attacking the mother of someone who died in war will lose him votes. The people that love Trump trolling may like this the same they used to admire the cool guy in junior high having the guts to do another spit ball, but undecided voters will not. Oh, and this will not help him with women either. How did he attack her? What was Trump's point? --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 5 hours ago, SteveWolfer said: Putin and his intentions are upsetting. He wants to reinstitute the USSR. I don't have any great answers to these problems. As long as there are people like Islamic fundamentalist with regional power and money, as long as an ex-KGB thug like Putin wasn't to make Russia into another USSR, there won't be any easy answers. If there was a thug in a neighborhood that kept mugging people and robbing them, they wouldn't be tolerated. If most of the governments of the world were mature and rational they wouldn't tolerate the Islamic Theocracies, North Korea, Putin, etc. And it isn't our government's job to fix the world - only to protect us. Protecting us means deciding when and where to intervene. If it were up to me I'd intervene in Iran at this point. The rest... not sure. He can't. Period. Militarily he has little to use except nukes. After he uses them, then what? Except for some specialized units, the Russian army is little more than a joke. The problem is NATO. WTF is NATO doing? --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 37 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said: How did he attack her? What was Trump's point? --Brant His comments will be viewed by many who are undecided as an attack, especially mothers. My wife is an example. She is looking for a reason to vote for Trump but his thin skin and big mouth always get him in trouble with her. What was Trump's point? To impress people like Michael. Did you see how impressed Michael was? Trump's the alpha male 8th grader who just LOVES that attention. The problem is that he should have grown out of that about 56 years ago. I'm back to thinking Hillary is going to landslide him big time. Fuggin' Hillary. Probably the worst retail politician in anybody's lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, PDS said: The problem is that he should have grown out of that about 56 years ago. David, That's the real problem, ain't it? Welcome to Trump's America, the Silent Majority. And enjoy the ride. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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