Jump to content

Donald Trump


Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Maybe "dorks" is over the top, but jeez...

:)

Seriously, how are you going to get people to notice producers and say good things about their achievements when you will not?

Donald Trump only happens to be the most talked about man in America--and he has been for the last eight months. And he will be for several more years.

What a great opportunity to shine a big honking light on productive achievement and the philosophy of achievement. Even with the negative differences (like eminent domain, etc.), you can talk about them and instruct as you celebrate Trump's achievements.

Hell, the dynamic tension in this drama is a great tactic for getting publicity traction. It's a natural situation for oodles of content creation that people will devour.

Can't you see it?

Double jeez...

Granted, going to the top of the mainstream and surfing that wave in front of hundreds of millions of people is not as sexy as a friggin' lecture hall with 50 yawners attending and someone sermonizing rehashed dogma in a monotone, or a blog or something, huh?...

:)

Michael

 

Could it be that the people about whom you're talking see only the entertainment side of Trump, the image-crafting and showmanship, and they haven't experienced the products and services, and therefore haven't quite accepted them as being real? His accomplishments in world class property development are just illusions, or distant, inaccessible exaggerations? They're just pictures of steel and glass buildings which are probably Photoshopped to make them look better than they are?

Do a Google image search for "Trump properties interiors." View page after page of perfect images. That's reality. That staged, polished, magazine-cover-photo-shoot look is what every square inch of Doral looked like every day. It's not a public relations fairy tale. The buildings aren't empty shells. The interiors aren't average or good. They're exquisite.

In Objectivist terms, Trump's properties are the ideal. They're an environment "proper to man." They present the mindset of flourishing and earned luxury as man's natural state.

What Trump has accomplished, over and over again, is very difficult. For Objectivish-types to not show due respect is perplexing. I really do think it's an issue of their not recognizing the reality of the achievements.

J

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the highlight of the debate for me,

After Cruz drones on with all kinds of logical fallacies in his attacks, Trump gets to speak and calls Cruz and Rubio politicians, that they are "all talk, no action", then proceeds to launch a repeatable zinger at Rubio, calling him a "choke artist", and Cruz, "a liar"--then the best part: after Trump says, "I rest my case," both Cruz and Rubio try to attack Trump, but Trump stands tall, regal, with the two "politicians" making the case for him by their own complaining.  He made them look small, like Congressmen..  like Congressmen complaining to a President.

Go Trump

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said:

This is the highlight of the debate for me,

After Cruz drones on with all kinds of logical fallacies in his attacks, Trump gets to speak and calls Cruz and Rubio politicians, that they are "all talk, no action", then proceeds to launch a repeatable zinger at Rubio, calling him a "choke artist", and Cruz, "a liar"--then the best part: after Trump says, "I rest my case," both Cruz and Rubio try to attack Trump, but Trump stands tall, regal, with the two "politicians" making the case for him by their own complaining.  He made them look small, like Congressmen..  like Congressmen complaining to a President.

Go Trump

Yeah, I especially love it when a (would-be) President of the United States call his opponents a "choke artist" or a "liar." Really Presidential and...BIG. Finally, a real he-man for a President...tall, regal, name-calling. Yup, a real champion, a man of true stature. 

But I guess it beats talking about wanting to punch somebody in the face or how his supporters are so loyal, he could shoot somebody and they wouldn't desert him. That sort of seems less Presidential than...thuggish. The kind of talk that you hope *is* "all talk, no action." 

God help us. Because fewer and fewer alleged supporters of individual liberty and limited government seem willing to.

REB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jonathan said:

Could it be that the people about whom you're talking see only the entertainment side of Trump, the image-crafting and showmanship, and they haven't experienced the products and services, and therefore haven't quite accepted them as being real? His accomplishments in world class property development are just illusions, or distant, inaccessible exaggerations? They're just pictures of steel and glass buildings which are probably Photoshopped to make them look better than they are?

 

Jonathan,

I don't think so. Well, maybe that's a part. But I don't think reality is important to them when they look at Trump. I'm serious.

 

Character 

Believe it or not, I think part of the problem is the Christian archetype of the hero and villain. Objectivists (the ones I'm talking about) don't like brash unrepentant winners. (Maybe in sports they do, but that's about it.) They want humility to be present in their hero. Modesty. Restraint and self-diminution, all concealed by a lot of philosophical blah blah blah. They would die before admitting it, but Trump is not a Christian enough archetype for them to be palatable as a good guy. Someone who is actually proud of his accomplishments, brags about them to the four winds from having earned that right, and does not feel a tinge of guilt for winning is seen by them as a villain, not a hero. That's what bad guys do, not good guys.

As an extension of this, Trump doesn't talk like a philosopher or a Founding Father, but instead like a businessman. And whether these Objectivists admit it or not, they think businessmen are sleazy, greedy and creepy by default. Totally amoral when not immoral. I'm talking on a default emotional level. For them, on that level, it is easier for a poor man to get into heaven than a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle. Oh, they say the contrary because Rand said it and there are her phrases, but when they actually judge people for important things in their own lives, one of their default good guys is the humble Christian and one of the their default bad guys is the greedy businessman. 

There is also a tinge of wanting to worship royalty in this archetype mix, but it is not as strong as the other two. (Or maybe it is. I need to think about it.) But for them, the principle is that a businessman certainly could not do anything important like be a president. That's only for people who matter. That's only for royalty (elite, that kind of superior human).

So there you have the characters of the drama. Those are not Objectivist hero and villain archetypes, but they are the default emotional hero and villain archetypes for many Objectivists.

(No wonder many of these Objectivists are snarky. The cognitive dissonance must be killing them. :) )

 

Plotline

Now the plotline.

Trump as a businessman did not greet politicians and people who think differently than him with a copy of Atlas Shrugged and the Constitution extended towards them like a person in a horror movie does with a cross to a vampire. He did not put them down with a zinger that questioned their integrity. He did not tell them he did not think of them. 

Instead, Trump sat them down and made deals.

Some of what Trump has done in the plotline of his life looks like Gail Wynand to them and some other stuff looks like Peter Keating or James Taggart. If these Objectivists can peg a negative interpretation of events to a Randian plotline, they will do it and ignore the good stuff that happened. This is a constant bad habit and, unfortunately, it came from Rand. (For one example, she was a master at saying such-and-such fact or evaluation was correct, except it came from so-and-so, who was a morally corrupt person who did morally corrupt things. Or ditto re a morally corrupt publication. So readers should ignore it. She did that a lot, especially in her later essays.)

What's worse, these Objectivists will not look deeper than the mere surface. If they did, they would see that Trump's contributions to politicians were nothing worse than what Hank Rearden did for years (don't forget that Wesley Mouch was his employee until the betrayal). Trump's sin for Objectivists is that he did not show distaste and feel guilty for lobbying like Rearden did. He relished the power it gave him over the politicians who purported to rule over him. What's even worse, Trump never did anything close to Roark's deception of designing a housing development for the government under false pretenses and then blowing it up. :) But I don't expect them to understand the irony of that.

 

Kneejerks

Then there are the kneejerks. Trump used to give money to politicians, even liberal ones--he's corrupt. Hillary came to his wedding--he's a liberal. Trump refuses to condemn eminent domain and even tried to use it a couple of times--he's a big government bully. Trump used bankruptcy restructuring--he has no integrity and welches on his deals. Trump wants to ban all illegal aliens and temporarily ban new Muslims from being on US soil--he's a bigot. Trump is against abortion--he's a slave master over women. Trump makes deals--he compromises everything. And on and on until they talk themselves into thinking he is a fascist and a Hitler in the making. That's not an exaggeration. Just Google it and you will find all these things.

 

In short

So within all this, there is no room to evaluate Trump's productive achievements.

Your words and mine praising Trump's work in Randian terms are like a slap in the face to them. Cognitive dissonance jacked up to the red zone.

They need to blank out Trump's virtues in order to let their ideology and their half-assed way of applying it in their own lives rule their thinking. They need to live their core story as given in the fantasies they tell themselves, not reality. If their core story clashes with reality, they have to blank out the reality part. If they adapted their core story to absorb reality, their entire structure for living would collapse and they would feel stark terror. They would tell themselves they are betraying their principles, betraying their values.

If I sound a bit harsh, it's because of the constant irrational hatred of Trump--and by extension, irrational contempt for people who support him--I have seen coming from them over months.

Regarding their perception of Trump and their behavior during this time, they are a perfect case of looking at the speck in their brother's eye and not noticing the log in their own. I hope that's a Christian enough saying for them to understand...

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

btw - Trump is crushing it as usual in the online polls about who won the debate.

I only looked (and voted :) ) at Drudge and Time, but I presume the others are doing similar. 

Well... I just looked (and voted :) ) at TheBlaze and he's killing it there, too. (Beck probably loses sleep over this because Trump actually won the last one on TheBlaze, even after the Cruz bots woke up. :) )

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jonathan said:

 

In Objectivist terms, Trump's properties are the ideal. They're an environment "proper to man." They present the mindset of flourishing and earned luxury as man's natural state.

What Trump has accomplished, over and over again, is very difficult.

Jonathan,

I love the way you phrased that.

And it is so true. Anyone can go and see if they trust their eyes.

Don't expect any refutation or agreement from many anti-Trumpers in O-Land, though.

Expect silence.

Then a Trump bash about anything except that.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Roger Bissell said:

God help us.

Since god doesn't exist, I guess we'll have to vote for Trump to help us.

I guess you can still do a write in though, REB?

Seriously though, make no mistake that when Trump is on the stage our country's enemies are watching.  Putin, Jong-un, ISIS--when you say "thuggish"--they see someone that will be difficult to take advantage of and manipulate.  Trump's attitude is what's appreciated here, which is not the core of him.  We have a (partially) morally confused society, and Trump knows how to communicate to many--using both verbals and non-verbals--then bring those people to his side.  But that's only part of Trump's demo.

Trump's core is American exceptionalism, he has Regan influences, and the cultural necessitations of the 21st century, coupled with a proven sense of life of an individualist with self-esteem that is exemplified by the businesses he has created.  Those businesses took purpose and long range planning to create and maintain.  Many Oist traits here...

Go Trump

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My vote is worth 1/125,000,000 in a popular election. That is to say squat and worth as much as anyones since electoral votes already guarantee a nominee.

My vote in a primary may be negligible too but thats where I can do the most damage. )

Wanting your guy isnt the same as getting what youre really after.

So I will wallow in anything the republicans can drag to the party, the alternative will leave me depressed (as did ACA in 2012).

2nd rate, bs artist, drag into the gutter, retard.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cracked me up. :lol:   The guy on the left said, "You repeat yourself every day." The guy on the right said, "No, no, no, no. I don't repeat myself. I don't repeat myself." Cracked me up. DT is about to fall apart. Keep up the pressure, Marco! Let's see how a "real winner" and a real "tough guy" likes repeated doses of his own medicine. (Damn, this is entertaining!)

CcHEnG8W0AAzslS.jpg

http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/26/the-case-for-rubio-ism/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign=d6b9785f51-RSS_The_Federalist_Daily_Updates_w_Transom&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-d6b9785f51-83770993

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Damn, this is entertaining!)

Clown, dancing bear, circus atmosphere and under that big hair, whats there, Oh my!

Thats entertainment.

Man, it is going to be especially hard on all of us if a republican doesn't win.

The entertainment factor will be through the big top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, KorbenDallas said:

[...] make no mistake that when Trump is on the stage our country's enemies are watching.  Putin, Jong-un, ISIS--when you say "thuggish"--they see someone that will be difficult to take advantage of and manipulate.  Trump's attitude is what's appreciated here, which is not the core of him. [...]

Trump's core is American exceptionalism, he has Regan influences, and the cultural necessitations of the 21st century, coupled with a proven sense of life of an individualist with self-esteem that is exemplified by the businesses he has created.  Those businesses took purpose and long range planning to create and maintain.  Many Oist traits here...

Go Trump

I hope America's enemies were NOT watching Trump's performance last night. They would quickly know how to get under his skin and take him down. The Teflon Don? Not with those Nerf balls.  :lol:

Regan influences? Do you mean Donald Regan, President Reagan's Treasury Secretary from 81 to 85, then his Chief of Staff, until he had to resign in 1987 because he was unable to contain the continuing political damage being done to President Reagan by public exposure of the Iran/contra matters? Those influences? Gads, I hope not!

An individualist who pays people to attend his weddings? :huh::huh:

Trump's various bankruptcies and Trump University (did anyone here spend $35K trying to attend that turkey?) "took purpose and long range planning to create and maintain," too.

The subversion and socialization of America "took purpose and long range planning to create and maintain," too. And Trump will not change that. Not the way he talks about fixing Obamacare. He's the King of RINO's and now the King of Whiners. "No no no no. I don't repeat myself. I don't repeat myself." Ladies in gentlemen, our next Whiner-in-Chief?

Yeah, go Trump - go now, please. Spare us.  :P

REB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Roger Bissell said:

Cracked me up. :lol:   The guy on the left said, "You repeat yourself every day." The guy on the right said, "No, no, no, no. I don't repeat myself. I don't repeat myself." Cracked me up. DT is about to fall apart. Keep up the pressure, Marco! Let's see how a "real winner" and a real "tough guy" likes repeated doses of his own medicine. (Damn, this is entertaining!)

CcHEnG8W0AAzslS.jpg

http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/26/the-case-for-rubio-ism/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign=d6b9785f51-RSS_The_Federalist_Daily_Updates_w_Transom&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-d6b9785f51-83770993

I also laughed at the "I don't repeat myself, I don't repeat myself" line. Rubio wasn't quick enough to capitalize on it, though.

I don't think the new style of attack is going to help Rubio or Cruz. It looks desperate. Attack the winner because he's winning. Crab bucket mentality - pull down any crab rising to the top. Try to out-Trump Trump. Try to mimic or borrow the tactics that you misperceive as being the reason he's winning. It's unoriginal and small.

Rubio is a douche and I just want to see him fail and go away, but I was expecting -- and still hoping for -- more and better from Cruz.

J

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is Big!!!!

Quote

Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey endorsed Donald J. Trump on Friday, a major turn in a wild race and one that gives the New York businessman a major boost as he heads into the pivotal Super Tuesday contests.

Mr. Christie was a candidate himself until he came in sixth place in New Hampshire’s primary. Seeing his political career facing an abrupt conclusion at the end of a second term as governor following his faded presidential campaign, he was said to be deeply angry with Senator Marco Rubio, according to three people with direct knowledge of his thinking. He blames Mr. Rubio’s “super PAC” for halting his momentum in New Hampshire in December with a string of slash-and-burn ads.

The endorsement came a day after Mr. Rubio, in a withering debate performance, turned his guns on Mr. Trump for the first time, and followed up this morning, calling Mr. Trump a “con artist.”

Mr. Trump welcomed the endorsement with warm praise for the New Jersey governor.

“He’s been my friend for many years, he’s been a spectacular governor,” said Mr. Trump, standing with Mr. Christie at a press conference in Fort Worth, Texas, for the endorsement.

“I am proud to be here to endorse Donald Trump,” said Mr. Christie, noting they have been friends for a decade.

Mr. Trump “will do exactly what needs to be done to make America a leader around the world again,” said Mr. Christie.

But his backing of Mr. Trump comes after weeks of him saying that it was time for the “entertainment” portion of the race to end, and as he had said that the type of executive leadership that a governor has is important.

He will be on the very short list for AG...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-- it looks like a few anti-Trump core stories are coalescing. Here is the panjandrum of language acquisition, on the subject of Donald Trump. Just as with Bidinotto, a grand theory -- but only half as convincing:

Donald Trump Is Winning Because White America Is Dying
Noam Chomsky says Trump's rise is partly due to deeply rooted -- and potentially fatal -- feelings of fear and anger.

Noam Chomsky, the renowned scholar and MIT professor emeritus, says that the rise of Donald Trump in American politics is, in part, fueled by deeply rooted fear and hopelessness that may be caused by an alarming spike in mortality rates for a generation of poorly educated whites.

“He’s evidently appealing to deep feelings of anger, fear, frustration, hopelessness, probably among sectors like those that are seeing an increase in mortality, something unheard of apart from war and catastrophe," Chomsky told The Huffington Post in an interview on Thursday.

Trump's rise as the Republican presidential front-runner has been confounding for Americans across the political spectrum. The bombastic, billionaire demagogue has won three of the first four primary states and holds a lead in the polls, both nationwide and in upcoming primary contests. He now appears poised to take an insurmountable delegate lead over the next several weeks, based on a platform of hate and vitriol targeted at women, Latinos, Muslims and other minorities.

A legion of less educated, working-class white men has fueled Trump’s rise. And while many say the business mogul is capitalizing on their fears about the perceived decline of white dominance in America, Chomsky says there may also be more existential forces at play.

Life expectancy, in general, has increased steadily over time. And thanks largely to advances in health care, many people around the world live longer lives. There are exceptions, of course -- during war or natural catastrophes, for example. But what’s happening now in America, he says, is “quite different.”

Despite vast wealth and modern medicine, the U.S. has lower average life expectancy than many other nations. And while the average has been increasing recently, the gains are not evenly spread out. Wealthier Americans are living longer lives, while the poor are living shorter ones.

Poorly educated, middle-aged American white males are particularly affected, multiple recent studies suggest. While Americans from other age, racial and ethnic groups are living longer lives than ever before, this particularly segment of the population is dying faster.

A Nobel Memorial Prize-winning study on the issue found that the rising death rate for this group is not due to the ailments that commonly kill so many Americans, like diabetes and heart disease, but rather by an epidemic of suicides, liver disease caused by alcohol abuse, and overdoses of heroin and prescription opioids.

“No war, no catastrophe," Chomsky says, has caused the spiking mortality rate for this population. "Just the impact of policies over a generation that have left them, it seems, angry, without hope, frustrated, causing self-destructive behavior."

That could well explain Trump’s appeal, he speculated.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

-- it looks like a few anti-Trump core stories are coalescing. Here is the panjandrum of language acquisition, on the subject of Donald Trump. Just as with Bidinotto, a grand theory -- but only half as convincing:

Donald Trump Is Winning Because White America Is Dying
Noam Chomsky says Trump's rise is partly due to deeply rooted -- and potentially fatal -- feelings of fear and anger.

Noam Chomsky, the renowned scholar and MIT professor emeritus, says that the rise of Donald Trump in American politics is, in part, fueled by deeply rooted fear and hopelessness that may be caused by an alarming spike in mortality rates for a generation of poorly educated whites.

“He’s evidently appealing to deep feelings of anger, fear, frustration, hopelessness, probably among sectors like those that are seeing an increase in mortality, something unheard of apart from war and catastrophe," Chomsky told The Huffington Post in an interview on Thursday.

Trump's rise as the Republican presidential front-runner has been confounding for Americans across the political spectrum. The bombastic, billionaire demagogue has won three of the first four primary states and holds a lead in the polls, both nationwide and in upcoming primary contests. He now appears poised to take an insurmountable delegate lead over the next several weeks, based on a platform of hate and vitriol targeted at women, Latinos, Muslims and other minorities.

A legion of less educated, working-class white men has fueled Trump’s rise. And while many say the business mogul is capitalizing on their fears about the perceived decline of white dominance in America, Chomsky says there may also be more existential forces at play.

Life expectancy, in general, has increased steadily over time. And thanks largely to advances in health care, many people around the world live longer lives. There are exceptions, of course -- during war or natural catastrophes, for example. But what’s happening now in America, he says, is “quite different.”

Despite vast wealth and modern medicine, the U.S. has lower average life expectancy than many other nations. And while the average has been increasing recently, the gains are not evenly spread out. Wealthier Americans are living longer lives, while the poor are living shorter ones.

Poorly educated, middle-aged American white males are particularly affected, multiple recent studies suggest. While Americans from other age, racial and ethnic groups are living longer lives than ever before, this particularly segment of the population is dying faster.

A Nobel Memorial Prize-winning study on the issue found that the rising death rate for this group is not due to the ailments that commonly kill so many Americans, like diabetes and heart disease, but rather by an epidemic of suicides, liver disease caused by alcohol abuse, and overdoses of heroin and prescription opioids.

“No war, no catastrophe," Chomsky says, has caused the spiking mortality rate for this population. "Just the impact of policies over a generation that have left them, it seems, angry, without hope, frustrated, causing self-destructive behavior."

That could well explain Trump’s appeal, he speculated.

 

A perfect example of the choice that you make to lead with when you frame an issue:

Here is an anti-Chomsky critique who is quite accurate in his approach:

Quote

Fourth—and this may be most important—he makes people stupid. In this sense, he's more like a cult leader or a New Age guru than an intellectual. He allows people to be comfortable with their prejudices and their hatreds, and he undercuts their ability to think in a critical manner. To an extent, this has to do with his use of emotional and moral blackmail. Since he portrays everyone who disagrees with him as evil, if you do agree with him you must be on the side of good and right. This is essentially a kind of secular puritanism, and it's very appealing to many people, for obvious reasons, I think. We all want to think well of ourselves, whether we deserve it or not.

A charge that was, and is, still leveled at Ayn. 

Unfortunately, she did fit a few of them, and, as we will see, shared the same "behavior," to some degree with Noam.

Quote

If you've ever seen how he acts with ordinary students who question what he says, it's quite horrifying. He simply abuses them in a manner I can only describe as sadistic. That is, he clearly enjoys doing it. I don't think anyone ought to be allowed to get away with that kind of behavior.

Kerstein continues, explaining that:

Quote

Chomsky is immensely important to the radical left. When it comes to American foreign policy he isn't just influential, he's basically all they have. Almost any argument made about foreign affairs by the radical left can be traced back to him. That wasn't the case when he started out back in the late '60s, but it is now.

The author astutely implies that:

Quote

...he is essentially the last totalitarian. Despite his claims otherwise, he's more or less the last survivor of a group of intellectuals who thought systemic political violence and totalitarian control were essentially good things. He babbles about human rights all the time, but when you look at the regimes and groups he's supported, it’s a very bloody list indeed.

Communism and fascism are obviously dead as the proverbial doornail, but I doubt the totalitarian temptation will ever go away. The desire for unity and a kind of beautiful tyranny seems to spring from somewhere deep in the human psyche.

A...To be continued

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Gotta love Ann Coulter:

 

 

:)

Michael

Michael:

Love the way she refuses to back down.

Remember that she was pushing Christie last cycle.

Quote
- The Washington Times - Friday, June 28, 2013

Conservative firebrand and best-selling author Ann Coulter has changed her tune and flip-flopped on her support for New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie.

In a Thursday tweet, she wrote: “@GovChristie’s dead to me.”

 

The tweet came on the heels of Republican Sen. Jeffrey Chiesa’s vote to end debate on the immigration reform bill. Mr. Chiesa was appointed to the seat by Mr. Christie after Sen. Frank Lautenberg died.

At the tail of her tweet, Ms. Coulter also added: “Jeffrey S. Chiesa R NJ votes ‘Aye’ on Amnesty bill.”

The denouncement is a major turn for Ms. Coulter, who pushed hard for Mr. Christie to run for president against Barack Obama in 2011. In February of 2011, she told Fox News: “I don’t care if [Chris Christie] wants to run, his country needs him, it appears.”

And at the Conservative Political Action Conference in 2011, she said similarly: “If we don’t run Chris Christie, [Mitt] Romney will be the nominee and we’ll lose,” The Daily Caller reported.

As late as May 2013, Ms. Coulter still stood strong for Mr. Christie.

A...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Selene said:

Remember that she was pushing Christie last cycle.

Adam,

I probably should have included this:

 

Go Ann!

Get your biker itch back!

:)

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...