Selene Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Quote As a fair-minded discussant whose mind resists reading, You just cannot stop yourself from this behavior. A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Obviously Trump won Nevada. Large margin, too. I hear a lot of Bush supporters went to Trump... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 34 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Obviously Trump won Nevada. Large margin, too. I hear a lot of Bush supporters went to Trump... Michael Correct Michael. I just love the spastic what ifs these "expert pundits" spit out with zero basis in fact. Let me see if I can find something concrete about spills because it is fascinating. In my NY City School Board Elections, it was all about spills from each person who was elected and eliminated and it was all set the day of voting. I is not that you got to re-vote your choices. A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Adam, Rush Limbaugh said something very interesting a few weeks ago. He said his show helped flush out a lot of big-government and progressive people who had been infiltrating the conservative movement. I think Trump is flushing out a lot of people, too. Except I'm not so sure the issue is big-government and progressivism and the infiltration is not just in the conservative movement. I think Trump is flushing out those who perceive themselves as masters of the masses. Those who think they are entitled to be in the ruling class or in an elite of some sort. I'm not talking about merit-based elites. I'm talking about snotty condescending groups and a sense of superiority over the masses just for being born. (They like to think this, anyway. ) I'm serious. Not all wealthy and/or powerful people are like this and not all who are like this are wealthy and/or powerful. It's the attitude--a default elitist mindset. The USA has started forming a royalty class and it is not pretty... Except they are not just in politics. They are infiltrated in all walks of society right now. Trump is flushing them out wherever they are because they can't stand him. They are afraid of him. Good. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 12 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Adam, Rush Limbaugh said something very interesting a few weeks ago. He said his show helped flush out a lot of big-government and progressive people who had been infiltrating the conservative movement. I think Trump is flushing out a lot of people, too. Except I'm not so sure the issue is big-government and progressivism and the infiltration is not just in the conservative movement. I think Trump is flushing out those who perceive themselves as masters of the masses. Those who think they are entitled to be in the ruling class or in an elite of some sort. I'm not talking about merit-based elites. I'm talking about snotty condescending groups and a sense of superiority over the masses just for being born. (They like to think this, anyway. ) I'm serious. Not all wealthy and/or powerful people are like this and not all who are like this are wealthy and/or powerful. It's the attitude--a default elitist mindset. The USA has started forming a royalty class and it is not pretty... Except they are not just in politics. They are infiltrated in all walks of society right now. Trump is flushing them out wherever they are because they can't stand him. They are afraid of him. Good. Michael Mega Dittos and let's roll in an Amen and cerveza! Ole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I forgot that The Donald endorsed Romney in 2012. Quote Trump, who has repeatedly flirted with the possibility of his own White House bid, revealed his decision in Las Vegas two days before Nevada's Saturday caucuses. "It's my honor, real honor, to endorse Mitt Romney," Trump said, with Romney and his wife standing nearby. Calling Romney "tough" and "smart," Trump said, "he's not going to continue to allow bad things to happen to this country." Romney responded by praising Trump for "an extraordinary ability to understand how our economy works and to create jobs" and for being "one of the few who has stood up to say China is cheating" in international trade. http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/02/politics/campaign-wrap/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Adam, Did you see that Trump crashed a speech by Glenn Beck at a caucus? I saw the video (actually, I was watching Rachel Maddow and saw it as it happened--I flipped the channel to her during a commercial and this was happening ). I couldn't make out Beck, but there was a sudden run to see Trump by a good part of the room. That had to have stung Beck. Beck later wrote on Facebook: "Just left the caucus site. Some of the nastiest people I have ever been with. (Trump supporters). We have their hate and rage on tape. Others around them were embarrassed for them. It was scary and sad." That's so odd because all you have to do is look at the above video. Where are all the enraged nasty people? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 4 hours ago, Selene said: 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Trump is flushing them out wherever they are because they can't stand him. They are afraid of him. Good. Michael Mega Dittos and let's roll in an Amen and cerveza! Adam, I had another thought about this. If you notice, the biggest fear the people who tend toward an elitist mindset have about Trump is that he will become a dictator (if not Hitler). Go on Facebook and you will see this over and over. I have lived long enough to know that people fear the most what is in themselves. If they fear Trump becoming a dictator so much, whereas a crapload of Trump supporters do not, it is because how to become a dictator is on their minds a lot. That's what they think about. Such thoughts are very present in their lives. Maybe they don't use the word dictator when thinking about themselves, but how to rule others more efficiently is on their minds day in and day out. So that's the first thing they fear in others. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Adam, I had another thought about this. If you notice, the biggest fear the people who tend toward an elitist mindset have about Trump is that he will become a dictator (if not Hitler). Go on Facebook and you will see this over and over. I have lived long enough to know that people fear the most what is in themselves. If they fear Trump becoming a dictator so much, whereas a crapload of Trump supporters do not, it is because how to become a dictator is on their minds a lot. That's what they think about. Such thoughts are very present in their lives. Maybe they don't use the word dictator when thinking about themselves, but how to rule others more efficiently is on their minds day in and day out. So that's the first thing they fear in others. Michael That's why Einstein left Europe? Von Mises? Of course Trump is no Hitler so your psychologizing may be apropos, but your statement is too encompassing. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 41 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said: Of course Trump is no Hitler so your psychologizing may be apropos, but your statement is too encompassing. Brant, I don't think so. Granted, there are a lot of people who don't care for Trump because they get caught up in the way their sundry tribes move, so there's even some macho-like echoes about how bad he is, but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about people who constantly try to express how clever they are by talking about how stupid or pathetic or damaged or furious or anything except rational Trump supporters are. Kinda like me talking about them right now. Except I'm right. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: If you notice, the biggest fear the people who tend toward an elitist mindset have about Trump is that he will become a dictator (if not Hitler). Go on Facebook and you will see this over and over. It is hard to measure the biggest fear ... and those who tend to 'an elitist' mindset need to be identified and queried, to my mind. For example, if I want to test out a thought on a Trump supporter, I have my contacts from the campaign phone room, and I have Michael and Adam. If I want to know what a Trump supporter thinks and feels, I can ask them here. I won't likely get the answer, but I can ask. 6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I have lived long enough to know that people fear the most what is in themselves. If they fear Trump becoming a dictator so much, whereas a crapload of Trump supporters do not, This seems logically constructed. those who fear a dictator fear the dictator within. It is tidy, as aphorisms go. But I don't believe it. I think it is entirely possible to be apprehensive about Trump policies, without the baggage of being a Trump policy oneself. I mean, using the example of say, Robert Bidinotto** ... does he tend to an 'elitist' mindset? Maybe yes. Closer to our playground here, does William tend to an elitist mindset? let's say he does. Does that mean his fears or apprehensions are simply a mirror? Maybe, but I have to think it through. In the interim, I think 'fear' of a Trump presidency should attract the same kind of attention as the anger that propelled a yuge amount of GOP caucus-goers in Nevada. Fear. It bears watching closely, and even maybe discussing. 6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: it is because how to become a dictator is on their minds a lot. How do you measure that? If I fear a 'dictator' or a 'strongman regime' ... how do you measure the corollary desire of mine, or the degree to which I want to become a dictator? 6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: That's what they think about. Such thoughts are very present in their lives. Maybe they don't use the word dictator when thinking about themselves, but how to rule others more efficiently is on their minds day in and day out. So that's the first thing they fear in others. This is as i said tidy -- even elegant. How could we test the observation or perception? 11 hours ago, Selene said: 12 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Obviously Trump won Nevada. Large margin, too. I hear a lot of Bush supporters went to Trump... Correct Michael. I just love the spastic what ifs these "expert pundits" spit out with zero basis in fact. Let me see if I can find something concrete about spills because it is fascinating. The spastic what-ifs are no use. I haven't seen any of the stupider pundits try it out, but they no doubt will and have. What I find striking about the Trump victory is that it is so smashing. No magic 33% in Nevada, but as near as a nose to 46%. That is a crushing in terms of pluralities. The Cruzbio duo collectively managed to inch up above - just barely -- their previous high points, with RafRuCru getting 21+ and MarCruRu gaining almost 25 Add those two together and you get Loser. Gong. 33% leads to Majority .... gong. If there is no Candidacide this week or next, Trump Tromp Tromp. I will update the delegate count table. My only advice to the Trump Hater bloc is Kill Off one of Your Hispanic Candidates, or You are Doomed. Here is the Trump victory speech, rendered via TTS; does this sound like a dictator-in-the-making?: Here is the height of wonkery, making a case that the Nevada victory is big and broad and meaningful: The result underscores that preventing Trump from winning the nomination is likely to require both that anti-Trump Republicans coalesce around an alternative and that they adopt a much more aggressive strategy in probing Trump for signs of weakness. On the first point, anti-Trump Republicans have made some progress: Rubio, who narrowly finished second in both South Carolina and Nevada, has received a cavalcade of endorsements in recent days as Republican “party elites” have increasingly rallied around him as the top alternative to Trump. But there are not yet many signs of a concerted effort to attack Trump. Instead, reports from Politico and other news organizations suggest that potential conservative donors are largely sitting on the sidelines. Remarkably little advertising money has been spent against Trump so far, especially given his position in the race. Rubio has also conspicuously avoided attacking Trump. [...] Lastly, we should keep in mind that this was just one state. Trump won 46 percent of the vote, blasting through his 33 percent (or thereabouts) ceiling, right? Not totally. It’s been clear for a while that Nevada Republicans loved Trump. As far back as October, polls have had Trump beating his national averages in Nevada. Meanwhile, Morning Consult polls, which have had Trump averaging 36 percent nationally over the course of the Republican primary, had Trump at 48 percent in Nevada. Believe it or not, states are not all the same! Recent polls have shown Trump getting anywhere from 50 percent of the Republican vote in Massachusetts to 18 percent in Utah. It’s certainly possible that Trump uses his momentum from Nevada to propel himself to even greater heights. But sometimes what’s billed as “momentum” is really just demographic and cultural variance among different states. ___________________________ ** "AN EPIPHANY ABOUT THE APPEAL OF MR. TRUMP. I've read and heard many theories from clueless pundits, pollsters, politicians, and ponderers who are trying to wrap their heads around the Trump phenomenon. Why he, an impious secularist, is drawing more support from evangelical Christians than Cruz or Carson. Why he, with a remarkably elastic view of constitutionally limited government, polls better among self-described "conservatives" than those with far more claim to being principled constitutionalists. Why he, a man who buys politicians in order to turn the power of government to his own ends, is the leading candidate in a party nominally committed to free enterprise, beating even those vocally opposing crony corporatists like himself. Etc. I've tried to wrap my head around all this myself, and until recent days, found myself at a loss. I find bits of truth in many of the proffered theories, but regard most of them as inadequate. The "Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant" keeps coming to mind: Each theorist seizes only a part of the beast that is Trumpism, then assumes that the part defines the whole of it. Well, here's my stab at it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, william.scherk said: . If I want to know what a Trump supporter thinks and feels, I can ask them here. I won't likely get the answer, but I can ask. William, It depends on what you ask and, more importantly, why you ask. I don't know if you have noticed, but Trump is gaining new supporters every day. He's gaining enough of them to win primaries. And the people who are supposed to be explaining why this is happening keep coming up with everything from Hillary plant to lack of self-esteem. Nothing they say explains anything because they can't predict jack with it. So far, I've been pretty good at predicting Trump stuff. Not in details, but in general direction. You have science, tradition, expertise, fame, longstanding leadership and so on for the intellectuals, pundits and politicians who keep fucking up. I have none of that except some localized prestige in a small subcommunity and the fact that I am a Trump supporter. Which one is credibly making the best predictions about Trump? You have to actually look at the people, not just at your theories and agenda if you want to make accurate predictions about what the people will do. And maybe even influence them. So here's the thing about asking Trump supporters anything. They have been lied to and ignored for a long time by rational-sounding people who, in the end, proven by their actions, only want to dip into their pockets for the money they earn (by way of increased taxes) and tell them what they have to do and what they can't do (by way of growing government, nanny-state crap and increasingly-oppressive regulations). In other words, these rational-sounding people have brought very little value into the lives of Trump supporters. But they have turned things into a gigantic pain in the ass for them. So if you ask them something and you come off as one more of those rational-sounding people who can't wait to pat them on the head and wait for them to go away, or try to trip them up in a gotcha, it won't matter much what you say. If you ask who they are and what they believe and why they love Trump with true non-judgmental curiosity--and they detect that--you will find yourself among some of the friendliest and open people on earth. They fundamentally don't give a crap about politics and they will be glad to answer anything, even when they know you will not agree. 12 minutes ago, william.scherk said: How do you measure that? If I fear a 'dictator' or a 'strongman regime' ... how do you measure the corollary desire of mine, or the degree to which I want to become a dictator. When someone constantly supports measures for controlling others by the government, argues for it, tries to persuade people that this is the good, and devotes a lot of time and effort to doing that, it doesn't take much measurement to realize that this person thinks a lot about controlling others. And when a person wants something that badly, he fears the loss of it. That's just kinda obvious. You happen to be a happy exception to the norm I have observed. You have one foot in the dark controlling side and another in the individualism freedom side. I don't know how far each side goes in your soul, but I do know it goes far enough for you to talk about things seriously with both. And you often (not always) bring genuine curiosity to the table. That's far better than a pat on the head, or a convoluted explanation about why my mind is somehow damaged or inferior, or even an outright attack on my mother, like I get elsewhere. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 47 minutes ago, william.scherk said: ** "AN EPIPHANY ABOUT THE APPEAL OF MR. TRUMP. William, Yeah. That's Biddibob's latest. Some epiphany. Trump supporters are good decent people who are desperately starving for self-esteem and psychologically damaged. Trump makes them feel whole. That's why they are emotion-driven and blind to the sanitizing light of Biddibob's reason about why Trump is a con man. Let me echo you... Erp... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 btw - I know the correct should be Bidibob. I just spelled it wrong a long time ago and am as stubborn as a mule on a bad day. So Biddibob it is. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 My fears about Sarah were unfounded. Here is what she just wrote: Sarah Palin said: Trump Smashes Records, Again; Democrat Turnout Declines, Again; Media Ignores the Reason, Again Hat trick! Three in a row with a "yuuuge" Trump victory in Nevada last night. The #TrumpTrain rolls on, full steam ahead to Super Tuesday. To all GOP beltway bellyachers crying (literally) this marks the "end of the GOP" or the people's vote for Trump is "bad for democracy," how about you try something new this morning: use your noggin and examine the facts. The fact is, Trump's independence, commonsense conservatism, experience, success, and refreshing candidness attracts voters. But most significantly, his message INSPIRES AMERICANS! We CAN win again! Trump's building a new, broad coalition - bringing the GOP new, hardworking patriots who love America as much as he does. This is how he wins this fall. - In the four states already voting (Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Nevada) each saw a record GOP turnout, smashing previous records. - Nevada was so big, it's record-setting number equaled that of 2008 and 2012 turnouts COMBINED! Meanwhile, turnout for the democrat caucus declined by 33% - yikes!http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/270555-gop-race-drives-record-turnout-in-nevada-caucuses - GOP turnout in South Carolina DOUBLED that of 2008, and grew another 130,000 new voters in 2016. Any bets on what happens Saturday when it's the democrats' turn? http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/south-carolina-shatters-voter-turnout-records/article/2583786 - Records broke in New Hampshire; again the GOP trajectory UP, democrats DOWN. Liberals lost thousands in their hot contest.http://www.npr.org/2016/02/10/466357629/new-hampshire-turnout-breaks-records-but-not-on-democratic-side - Iowa GOP caucus ranks grew by 60,000. On the other side? A strange, tight race was decided by only 0.3%...? Dems lost voters.http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2016/02/02/caucus-turnout-robust-record-setting-and-surprising/79626128/ Wake up, Old Establishment. You're the last to open your eyes to what is happening in this country. Donald Trump has awakened the electorate and exposed the self-serving political machine in a way no other could. The rest of us welcome new voters into what you've claimed to want - the "big tent" - even as you practice your disparaging elitism, trying to discourage us all. Your true colors show. As I said in Iowa, you don't care WHO wins elections as long as you keep your perks, crony capital favors, and inner-circle money-centric power. This is merely a BUSINESS for you. You're in it for a season, not a reason. So obvious is your agenda, trying to destroy anyone who'd go rogue and not get sucked into your schemes, that when we find the candidate in the perfect position to bust up your cabal, you've gone into overdrive. Meanwhile we'll keep on winning, and encouraging all these new voters to bring family and friends along! What is happening that the Permanent Political Class can't see? For our solvency and sovereignty, lovers of America knew the status quo had to go. We knew we needed a revolution. We found a revolutionary. - Sarah Palin I wrote a comment: "God bless you, Sarah Palin." And I'm not even religious. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 50 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: [WSS:] If I want to know what a Trump supporter thinks and feels, I can ask them here. I won't likely get the answer, but I can ask. William, It depends on what you ask and, more importantly, why you ask. Why would I want to know what you think? Or more generally, what a Trump supporter thinks, you mean? That I could have good and bad reasons to want to know? That is too philosophical for me. I tend to have specific questions. For example, what do you think of the 'fear' displayed by a notable OL alumni? One can only ask. Quote I don't know if you have noticed, but Trump is gaining new supporters every day. He's gaining enough of them to win primaries. And the people who are supposed to be explaining why this is happening keep coming up with everything from Hillary plant to lack of self-esteem. Nothing they say explains anything because they can't predict jack with it. Er, I just don't buy this. Of course, new supporters are gained everyday -- insofar as his polling numbers are breached and topped by his actual caucus/primary loot in delegates and percentages. "The people who are supposed to be explaining this" is a murk term, for me. I know sort of who you are talking about, but the details are lacking. You no longer illustrate your contentions with examples. And "they cannot predict jack" ... this may be so, but what data are you looking at? That is what is missing for me here -- it seems you believe you know better than all those 'jack-predictors' ... and you may do, of course, but those Jack Predictors are not here, or not represented here in argument by name and quoat. Quote So far, I've been pretty good at predicting Trump stuff. Not in details, but in general direction. "Predicting Trump stuff" is another murk term. You have indeed estimated where Trump will win, but you aren't pinning it to tangible numbers, bozillians aside. REB and Adam are the best predictors on OL so far. Quote You have science, tradition, expertise, fame, longstanding leadership and so on for the intellectuals, pundits and politicians who keep fucking up. I have none of that except some localized prestige in a small subcommunity and the fact that I am a Trump supporter. The fact that you are a Trump supporter is the reason I ask you questions. Quote Which one is credibly making the best predictions about Trump? Adam and REB, at least here. And I come up the rear. I overestimated the SC turnout for Trump. One the whole my prediction of the Magic 33 is independently derived, although it now fits the conventional wisdom. Quote You have to actually look at the people, not just at your theories and agenda if you want to make accurate predictions about what the people will do. And maybe even influence them. "Here's looking at you, kid." I bet you could not accurately sketch my 'theories and agenda' ... and my influence is as it has always been here on OL. I rock. I have fans. I engage. I influence. It is fun. More seriously, the only influence I want to have is in strengthening Reason. I am totally a Randian on this, having been influenced to a great degree over the last ten years here. Reason is our best tool. I choose reason. If this makes me in some minds an object of the Elite, I just laugh. It is so funny to be slotted into the wrong hole. I predict that 'people will do' what they can to Stop Trump, and given the self-regard and ambition of the Twins, given that neither one wants to drop out now, at this point I predict Trump will win a majority of delegates. If this prediction makes me a theorist with an agenda, so be it. The agenda has yet to be exposed. The theory has three parts: 33 / Plurality=Majority / Trump is on track to win 1236+1 by the ides of March. Bif bam boom. Since you probably agree with the three points of my 'theory' I will have to wait till you snatch a tiny morsel of my output and take it to the cleaners. Quote So here's the thing about asking Trump supporters anything. Finally. And I interpret this as "Here is the thing about asking Me anything." (which brings me to my thoughts on conversation. We would have a great conversation, if we wanted to) Quote They have been lied to and ignored for a long time by rational-sounding people who, in the end, proven by their actions, only want to dip into their pockets for the money they earn (by way of increased taxes) and tell them what they have to do and what they can't do (by way of growing government, nanny-state crap and increasingly-oppressive regulations). Yeah, well, my hellhole is more of a hellhole than your hellhole. By far. Go google that if you doubt me. Quote In other words, these rational-sounding people have brought very little value into the lives of Trump supporters. But they have turned things into a gigantic pain in the ass for them. Okay. Am I still in view, on the board, in your thoughts about "rational-sounding people"? I want to be more than rationally sounding. I want to be as rational as I can, within my limitations and biases. Quote So if you ask them something and you come off as one more of those rational-sounding people who can't wait to pat them on the head and wait for them to go away, or try to trip them up in a gotcha, it won't matter much what you say. I don't get it -- is this me, or is this you/me? I mean, are you identifying me as one of those people? Quote If you ask who they are and what they believe and why they love Trump with true non-judgmental curiosity--and they detect that--you will find yourself among some of the friendliest and open people on earth. They fundamentally don't give a crap about politics and they will be glad to answer anything, even when they know you will not agree. This can only apply to you -- since you do not claim clairvoyance. The collective description does not do justice to the Trump Supporters. I can't believe you think you have the Pulse of Trump People and no one else can match youi. But if you do, I am more interested in what you say on specific topics of interest to both Trump Supporters and, er, Trump-not-Supporters, or as you are wont to denote this bloc of folks: Haters. You are more important to me than Haters. My bottom line is that I will have to craft any questions to you carefully, being sensitive to the needs of the Trump Supporter. In other words, you. Adam has given up on trying to communicating with me reasonably. Quote When someone constantly supports measures for controlling others by the government, argues for it, tries to persuade people that this is the good, and devotes a lot of time and effort to doing that, it doesn't take much measurement to realize that this person thinks a lot about controlling others. And who is that person? This is so general as to be gauze. Am I in there? Quote And when a person wants something that badly, he fears the loss of it. That's just kinda obvious. What do I want so badly that I fear the loss of it? It is not obvious, and it needs more than an elegant aphorism or assurance to be judged a correct identification. I think we were on the way to discussing :"Fear of the Strongman," say, or "Fear of Trade disruption." This line of yours extends the notion that I fear Trumpism because I am Trumpism. You could offer further analysis and examples, and indeed you probably will. At the moment, I get the impression were are on different planes of discussion. Quote You happen to be a happy exception to the norm I have observed. You have one foot in the dark controlling side and another in the individualism freedom side. I don't know how far each side goes in your soul, but I do know it goes far enough for you to talk about things seriously with both. And you often (not always) bring genuine curiosity to the table. "You have one foot in the dark controlling side ..." Damning words. It is just like me saying "You, Michael, have one foot in the dark controlling side" (remembering your thread about starting an Objectivist Cult). It is a judgment that discourages discussion. Quote That's far better than a pat on the head, or a convoluted explanation about why my mind is somehow damaged or inferior, or even an outright attack on my mother, like I get elsewhere. Fuck that noise. I say nothing about a damaged or inferior mind. I am not attacking your mother. I hope she is hale and hearty and voting for Trump. Well, all that said, I am going to go to Facebook and get in an argument with Bidinotto. He has such a felicity with words, I may not survive the encounter with my psychological sureties intact. GONG ... Trump haters non-supporters darkside footed opponents, if you do not kill off one of the Cruzbio Twins, get ready for Trump to be officiaslly installed as GOP nominee one sweltering evening in Cleveland Edited February 24, 2016 by william.scherk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I suspect it's going to be a brokered convention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I think I must have been looking at a campaign link from 2012 for the dates of events. William wrote about our best political predictors, “Adam and REB, at least here.” And I am glad they are right. It makes me pause before i project my own wishes into future happenings. It is time to stop predictions based on emotions . So, I am seriously reexamining the Bill Buckley strategy of sticking with the candidate who is “the most conservative, and most electable.” I hope Cruz will stay in the race until after Super Tuesday. As a sorry example of my own emotionalism, Trump said about a heckler at his rally, “I would like to punch him in the face,” and I thought, oh, oh, here it comes. The brown shirts are going to materialize at his rallies. But I was wrong to make that emotional snap - judgment. It doesn’t appear to be happening. I think the people who attend his rallies are better than that and well aware of the cameras on them, but the reason the preponderance of them are restrained is because they are not dumb rednecks. As Trump’s support grows I think the emotion will grow at his rallies and there will be more sports like chants. Super Tuesday. Be there or be square. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 2 hours ago, william.scherk said: ** "AN EPIPHANY ABOUT THE APPEAL OF MR. TRUMP. I've read and heard many theories from clueless pundits, pollsters, politicians, and ponderers who are trying to wrap their heads around the Trump phenomenon. Why he, an impious secularist, is drawing more support from evangelical Christians than Cruz or Carson. Why he, with a remarkably elastic view of constitutionally limited government, polls better among self-described "conservatives" than those with far more claim to being principled constitutionalists. Why he, a man who buys politicians in order to turn the power of government to his own ends, is the leading candidate in a party nominally committed to free enterprise, beating even those vocally opposing crony corporatists like himself. Etc. I've tried to wrap my head around all this myself, and until recent days, found myself at a loss. I find bits of truth in many of the proffered theories, but regard most of them as inadequate. The "Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant" keeps coming to mind: Each theorist seizes only a part of the beast that is Trumpism, then assumes that the part defines the whole of it. Well, here's my stab at it." That's Biddibob's latest. Some epiphany. Trump supporters are good decent people who are desperately starving for self-esteem and psychologically damaged. I have a different opinion. To summarize Bidinotto's fairly long "Epiphany" is beyond the scope of my interest, but I can quote him. Here's what I consider the worst, fixed-mindset exudations ... Everyone wonders why Trump doesn't have to be accurate, logical, or especially knowledgeable about policy to hold his supporters -- why he can say and do things that would disqualify any other candidate -- why evangelicals give him a pass on his dubious Christianity and personal morals -- why Tea Partiers give him a pass on his crony corporatism -- why constitutional conservatives give him a pass on his affronts to individual rights and limited government -- why even members of the left's favorite "victim" classes, including some blacks and Hispanics, not only give him a pass, but like what he represents. Trump is succeeding with them all, not by what he thinks, or what he makes them think. He is succeeding by how he makes them FEEL about themselves and their country (which they experience as interconnected). So, to Trump's fellow critics (I remain a vocal one), please understand that what we have been interpreting as a rise of "populism" and "nationalism" may not be rooted in ideological preference, or in pragmatic expediency, or even in "irrationalism." It may well be rooted in psychological desperation: in a quest by truly "downtrodden" and humiliated classes of people to reclaim their shattered sense of self-esteem...to reassert their "manhood" (if you will) against the political/educational/media/cultural Ruling Class that has emasculated them. This is also why Trump's supporters seem closed to even the most obvious and rational criticisms of their hero. Their support of him isn't grounded in his specific policies or views about this or that. It's because those policies and views -- whether by cunning calculation, or from authentic emotion -- symbolize the reclamation of a feeling of personal and national dignity and pride. Note how Trump always ties his specific, even mundane policy pledges -- whether it's about taxes, hiring decisions, Supreme Court appointments, his "Wall," foreign trade, dealing with foreign leaders, the military, veterans, cops, you name it -- to his themes of "winning" and "American greatness." He can remain completely vague or utterly impractical, yet his supporters don't care. That's because his critics are paying attention to his often-confused and incoherent lyrics. But his supporters are listening to his music. And the music he's playing is the theme from "Rocky." Yes, Donald Trump is directing his theme music to all the long-suffering, long-humiliated Rocky Balboas in America. He is telling them that even if THEY can't stand up to the rich and powerful bullies who have been intimidating them, HE can do it for them. He will be their champion in the political/cultural ring. I will be taking Bidibob to the woodshed, but first I have to re-read the whole dang thing and the rest of the discussion he continues -- with the Principle of Charity. Maybe Robert's thoughts deserve all the scorn and derision and dismissals implied in MSK's rejection of Robert as a principled and interesting commentator. I get the impression that to MSK, Robert is but a Hater. And Haters deserve no considerations, because they are infused with Hate. I do think this is danged incorrect identification, but given MSK's stature, I owe him as much Charity as I do Robert. Report back in seven or eight hours. Edited February 24, 2016 by william.scherk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 William, (sigh) This is why I don't like doing this back and forth stuff with other people with you--or with anybody for that matter. You fuck it up and put words in people's mouths and give them connotations they would never dream of thinking, much less believing. I don't think Robert is a hater who deserves no consideration and nothing but scorn. I think he is a Trump hater, but not a hater in general or even a Trump supporter hater. And he is immune to seeing who Trump supporters really are right now (and even who Trump really is) because he sees them through the lens of predigested conclusions and theories. And his hatred of Trump is the central program of his cybernetic system. He can be blown off course for a bit with some explanation or other, but the system always course corrects back to Trump hatred. I have already discussed this stuff with him several times. Maybe not in these words, but in this meaning. The result is always the same, so why continue it? Do you have anything positive you are trying to accomplish? Because from where I sit right now, this is looking like that kind of gossip where the gossiper whispers in one ear, then whispers in another, and keeps going back and forth until the boom happens. Then the gossiper sits back all content and happy as he watches the show. Maybe gets some popcorn. This is destructive and please tell me I'm wrong. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Bissell Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 9 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I have lived long enough to know that people fear the most what is in themselves. If they fear Trump becoming a dictator so much, whereas a crapload of Trump supporters do not, it is because how to become a dictator is on their minds a lot. That's what they think about. Such thoughts are very present in their lives. Maybe they don't use the word dictator when thinking about themselves, but how to rule others more efficiently is on their minds day in and day out. So that's the first thing they fear in others. Hmmm, have you checked out this theory with Holocaust survivors? Probably not. You no doubt have a rationally founded fear of what they might (wish to) do to you, if you uttered such a thing. But who knows? Maybe Holocaust survivors *love* Trump, and think he would be just the cat's meow. Kinda doubt it, but hey, I loves me some empirical data. REB P.S. - Maybe Trump Haters have watched too many movies about the Holocaust. Yet another theory for pollsters to check out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 11 minutes ago, Roger Bissell said: Hmmm, have you checked out this theory with Holocaust survivors? Roger, Holocaust survivor certainly have good reason to fear Nazis. I have never heard of a single Holocaust survivor who has been injured by Trump. In fact, I can't think of a single anti-semitic thing that has his name attached to it. Trump seems to do a lot of highly lucrative business with Jews. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Roger Bissell said: But who knows? Maybe Holocaust survivors *love* Trump, and think he would be just the cat's meow. Kinda doubt it, but hey, I loves me some empirical data. REB P.S. - Maybe Trump Haters have watched too many movies about the Holocaust. Yet another theory for pollsters to check out. Roger I don't get the feeling that you would dance around an issue of this magnitude, so what are you stating/implying? A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Bissell Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, Selene said: Roger I don't get the feeling that you would dance around an issue of this magnitude, so what are you stating/implying? A... Adam, I was stating a reductio argument, in reply to Michael's hideously illogical and horrendously insulting claim: I have lived long enough to know that people fear the most what is in themselves. If they fear Trump becoming a dictator so much, whereas a crapload of Trump supporters do not, it is because how to become a dictator is on their minds a lot. That's what they think about. Such thoughts are very present in their lives. Maybe they don't use the word dictator when thinking about themselves, but how to rule others more efficiently is on their minds day in and day out. So that's the first thing they fear in others. Michael intended the underscored to apply to Trump "haters," because - as Michael analyzes them - they are craven, repressed dictators who secretly obsess about ruling others, which is why it is on their minds. It does not occur to him that they fear Trump like they would fear a rabid dog or a Charlie Chaplin look-alike. No, they are projecting their own inner power-lust onto Trump and his supporters. Riiiiiiiight. Actually, though, the underscored could apply just as well if one engages not in *projection* (of one's own dark, inner psychology) but instead in *mind-reading* (not much of a stretch, at that) of those who grin and pump fists when Trump talks about shooting someone in Times Square or punching a heckler in the face. You know, behavior resembling those who wore brown shirts and resonated to the 20th Century's most famous Charlie Chaplin look-alike. That is what I was implying. Sorry it wasn't clear. REB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, Roger Bissell said: That is what I was implying. Sorry it wasn't clear. REB OK. Out of curiosity, do you see that type of "true believer" thug as exclusive to the facist right? A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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