White House knew millions couldn't keep health plans

[Ellen Stuttle]

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow."

Ellen

"And the Light shines on in the darkness,

for the darkness has never overpowered it."

(John 1:5)

Greg

That doesn't square with your previous statement:

In the presence of light, darkness ceases to exist.

Just curious: Do you believe that Satan exists?

Ellen

[caroljane]

Moralist controls the light to dark ratio in his bubble.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Moralist controls the light to dark ratio in his bubble.

Carol,

Isn't that the name of the game with life?

Michael

[Selene]

Here I come to save the day!

A...

[moralist]

Moralist controls the light to dark ratio in his bubble.

You are correct.

I only exercise control to set the moral tone within my own personal sphere of influence. And I define my personal sphere of influence as everything and everyone with whom I interact directly face to face. For that I'm morally accountable. Everything else which lies outside my personal sphere of influence, falls within the spheres of influence of others over which they exercise control and for which they are morally accountable.

So much time and energy is wasted fretting about things over which we have no control, while neglecting to properly attend to those things closest to us which we can control. A man I respect once said:

"It's more important what you do in your house

than what the President does in the White House."

--Dennis Prager

If people were to properly order their own lives first... they would then discover just how much the outer world graciously acquiesces to the inner order they establish. This is because the whole world answers to exactly the same moral law.

Greg

[moralist]

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow."

Ellen

"And the Light shines on in the darkness,

for the darkness has never overpowered it."

(John 1:5)

Greg

That doesn't square with your previous statement:

In the presence of light, darkness ceases to exist.

Just curious: Do you believe that Satan exists?

Ellen

No.

I know that evil exists... but only in the absence of good.

Greg

[caroljane]

Adam, was that a postmodernist egg and sperm thing?

Or a visual haiku?

[moralist]

There is no entertainment in being forced to pay medical bills for medical necessities inflated beyond all reason by government interference with natural pricing through distribution of money and the imposition of regulations. You may have to go abroad to escape that crap.

I'm not forced by the government bureaucracy or the insurance bureaucracy. By dealing completely outside the system, as a direct cash paying customer I negotiate my own discounts. You'd be truly shocked at just how preferentially you're treated as an independent direct dealing customer. This is the American way to be free. Simply go forth and lay claim to it.

So if you're not free it's your own damn fault. And don't blame the government or the insurance companies, because they can only opportunistically prey on the economic freedom of anyone who grants them their sanction by how they live their life. I can guarantee that anyone who changes how they are living will enjoy the freedom of being an American.

Greg

I assume you like I have enjoyed pretty good health. There is a proper free market role for medical insurance against economic catastrophe, not for office visits.

--Brant

Whether to assume the personal financial responsibility for your own life through a self insured healthcare account, or to pay for insurance so that others will be responsible for your life, is everyone's free choice. Because regardless of the choice, everyone is getting what they paid for... and everyone is getting what they deserve.

Greg

[Selene]

Adam, was that a postmodernist egg and sperm thing?

Or a visual haiku?

Hmm, see never thought of that. Just a simple country mediator here...I even wear suspenders so that I can put my thumbs in them, chest high, at certain points in the speech.

[caroljane]

I can see you now, seated on your pork barrel in the country store.

[Selene]

I can see you now, seated on your pork barrel in the country store.

I have actually done that and I felt as comfortable as Spencer Tracey in Inherit The Wind...

[Brant Gaede]

There is no entertainment in being forced to pay medical bills for medical necessities inflated beyond all reason by government interference with natural pricing through distribution of money and the imposition of regulations. You may have to go abroad to escape that crap.

I'm not forced by the government bureaucracy or the insurance bureaucracy. By dealing completely outside the system, as a direct cash paying customer I negotiate my own discounts. You'd be truly shocked at just how preferentially you're treated as an independent direct dealing customer. This is the American way to be free. Simply go forth and lay claim to it.

So if you're not free it's your own damn fault. And don't blame the government or the insurance companies, because they can only opportunistically prey on the economic freedom of anyone who grants them their sanction by how they live their life. I can guarantee that anyone who changes how they are living will enjoy the freedom of being an American.

Greg

I assume you like I have enjoyed pretty good health. There is a proper free market role for medical insurance against economic catastrophe, not for office visits.

--Brant

Whether to assume the personal financial responsibility for your own life through a self insured healthcare account, or to pay for insurance so that others will be responsible for your life, is everyone's free choice. Because regardless of the choice, everyone is getting what they paid for... and everyone is getting what they deserve.

Greg

But you don't know these things. You don't even think you know these things or you could and would explain the validity of your thinking. You merely have some ideas or pre-set conclusions you keep referring to, albeit transferable among sundry concretes. The irony is many of these ideas are valid and useable for a fulfilling and happy life, especially given a certain psychological orientation. But I do see you as living in a sort of a bunker wearing blinders.

--Brant

[moralist]

There is no entertainment in being forced to pay medical bills for medical necessities inflated beyond all reason by government interference with natural pricing through distribution of money and the imposition of regulations. You may have to go abroad to escape that crap.

I'm not forced by the government bureaucracy or the insurance bureaucracy. By dealing completely outside the system, as a direct cash paying customer I negotiate my own discounts. You'd be truly shocked at just how preferentially you're treated as an independent direct dealing customer. This is the American way to be free. Simply go forth and lay claim to it.

So if you're not free it's your own damn fault. And don't blame the government or the insurance companies, because they can only opportunistically prey on the economic freedom of anyone who grants them their sanction by how they live their life. I can guarantee that anyone who changes how they are living will enjoy the freedom of being an American.

Greg

I assume you like I have enjoyed pretty good health. There is a proper free market role for medical insurance against economic catastrophe, not for office visits.

--Brant

Whether to assume the personal financial responsibility for your own life through a self insured healthcare account, or to pay for insurance so that others will be responsible for your life, is everyone's free choice. Because regardless of the choice, everyone is getting what they paid for... and everyone is getting what they deserve.

Greg

But you don't know these things.

In my own life experience I have not seen that principle violated.

It is impossible for any two people enter into a financial transaction without matching values and motives. For if they do not match, one or the other will refuse to deal, and no transaction can take place.

You don't even think you know these things or you could and would explain the validity of your thinking.

I just did... but it's not mere thinking. it's my real world experience.

You merely have some ideas or pre-set conclusions you keep referring to, albeit transferable among sundry concretes. The irony is many of these ideas are valid and useable for a fulfilling and happy life, especially given a certain psychological orientation. But I do see you as living in a sort of a bunker wearing blinders.

I can understand how you might see it that way from where you stand. So all I can say to you is that the view is different when living by that specific principle I had just referenced. And I'm hardly in a bunker, as I'm constantly out and about in public in the business world as an independent Capitalist entrepreneur.

You can't make money in a bunker... unless you're selling bunkers.

And more to the topic of this thread:

The angst and anguish that millions of people are presently experiencing over insurance is wholly self inflicted. For that is a natural consequence of seeking the illusive and transient feelings of comfort and security that others will pay their bills. So when objective reality inevitably rips apart that fragile emotional fantasy as the insurance system crumbles, it's bound to cause pain.

And mark my words... ALL of these corrupted systems are failing:

Government

Insurance

Healthcare

Education

Credit/Debt

...and they are taking down along with them everyone who clings to their illusions.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

These are failing in relative slow motion so far. They can fail the society you live in to the level of Cuba or even Haiti. Before that happens in the United States, the country will be further degenerated by its empire with an actual emperor aka "The President." This is why each President since Eisenhower has been worse than the previous in terms of what he does and accomplishes only braked by cultural inertia, though that can be swept aside by acclaimations of fear, security and war (9/11). Obama is not permitted the overt insanity of a Caligula because it's not yet an acceptable American form for "the bully pulpit" and lead is not part of his drinking cup. With this degeneration will come chaos. Some pilot someday is going to do a wing-over with Air Force One. The army will occupy the capital and the capitol. Elections will be suspended. Blacks will find whites have more guns. Federal agents will be killed in the field or make themselves invisible. Red states will dominate the blue states or simply cast them off as the center of power switches from Washington to Omaha presided over by some two-bit four-star fly-boy General Officer proclaiming the superiority of "Wings Over the World" and the "Rule of the Airmen."

--Brant

that was fun: after I got going I couldn't help myself!

[moralist]

These are failing in relative slow motion so far.

Yes they are... and that's really good because it affords an opportunity for those Ponzi scams to be replaced with something better. I'm very optimistic about that because it gives time for the people who want to change how they are living by giving up their infantile need for the false feelings of comfort and security that those rotten systems only appear to offer, to grow to face the inherent risks of life like decent honest responsible productive solvent frugal independent self motivated Americans.

And if enough people become Americans, they will have earned the Constitutional government they deserve. This is because government is nothing more than the literal creation of people's moral values.

And those who don't choose to change their lives are just going to end up dysfunctional emotional wreckage when their fantasy ships hit the rocks of objective reality like when the credit/debt system collapsed in 2008.

(I think I'll just leave the rest of your comments unresponded, and go with your original brief flash of lucidity. )

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

(I think I'll just leave the rest of your comments unresponded, and go with your original brief flash of lucidity. )

Greg

Your generosity will be legendary.

--Brant

[Selene]

Condescending Willy Wonka

Office Space - Milton "I was told..."

[moralist]

(I think I'll just leave the rest of your comments unresponded, and go with your original brief flash of lucidity. )

Greg

Your generosity will be legendary.

--Brant

Yes... fathers will be telling their sons for generations.

[Selene]

"Brothers, what we do in life echoes in eternity."

[dldelancey]

Greg,

Consider the following scenario: A legally emancipated 17-year-old is a senior in high school. She attends high school classes from 8am-11am. She works in an office earning slightly more than minimum wage from 11:30am - 5:30pm M-F and 8am - 2pm Saturdays. Through a specialized program at her local community college, she attends college classes 4 nights a week from 6pm - 10pm. She lives in an efficiency apartment with only the essentials (no phone, no television, no electronic toys). Her car is 10 years old and paid for, but requires frequent maintenance. She receives no support of any kind from her family or anyone else. She was diagnosed with Chron's Disease at age 15, has had one surgery, must maintain a specific diet, and has 3 prescriptions to treat the symptoms of her illness. Even so, she will most likely require another surgery within the next two years. As Chron's is incurable, she accepts that she will need treatment for the rest of her life. After living expenses, most of her "disposable" income is used to pay for her education (she prefers not to take out student loans) and for the co-pay on her medications. She pays her portion of doctor bills and hospital bills on a payment plan with whatever is left. She has medical insurance through her employer's group plan which is why she works Saturdays because she has to average at least 35 hours per week to be eligible.

What would your advice to this person be? Maintain medical insurance or no?

[Brant Gaede]

Greg,

Consider the following scenario: A legally emancipated 17-year-old is a senior in high school. She attends high school classes from 8am-11am. She works in an office earning slightly more than minimum wage from 11:30am - 5:30pm M-F and 8am - 2pm Saturdays. Through a specialized program at her local community college, she attends college classes 4 nights a week from 6pm - 10pm. She lives in an efficiency apartment with only the essentials (no phone, no television, no electronic toys). Her car is 10 years old and paid for, but requires frequent maintenance. She receives no support of any kind from her family or anyone else. She was diagnosed with Chron's Disease at age 15, has had one surgery, must maintain a specific diet, and has 3 prescriptions to treat the symptoms of her illness. Even so, she will most likely require another surgery within the next two years. As Chron's is incurable, she accepts that she will need treatment for the rest of her life. After living expenses, most of her "disposable" income is used to pay for her education (she prefers not to take out student loans) and for the co-pay on her medications. She pays her portion of doctor bills and hospital bills on a payment plan with whatever is left. She has medical insurance through her employer's group plan which is why she works Saturdays because she has to average at least 35 hours per week to be eligible.

What would your advice to this person be? Maintain medical insurance or no?

deleted as premature

[caroljane]

He will say that she will make her own choices based on her own values and he would not presume to give anyone else advice.

As Brant notes, he does not argue or even discuss. His echo chamber response is, Ì know you are, but what am I..and then he tells us what he is.

[moralist]

Greg,

Consider the following scenario: A legally emancipated 17-year-old is a senior in high school. She attends high school classes from 8am-11am. She works in an office earning slightly more than minimum wage from 11:30am - 5:30pm M-F and 8am - 2pm Saturdays. Through a specialized program at her local community college, she attends college classes 4 nights a week from 6pm - 10pm. She lives in an efficiency apartment with only the essentials (no phone, no television, no electronic toys). Her car is 10 years old and paid for, but requires frequent maintenance. She receives no support of any kind from her family or anyone else. She was diagnosed with Chron's Disease at age 15, has had one surgery, must maintain a specific diet, and has 3 prescriptions to treat the symptoms of her illness. Even so, she will most likely require another surgery within the next two years. As Chron's is incurable, she accepts that she will need treatment for the rest of her life. After living expenses, most of her "disposable" income is used to pay for her education (she prefers not to take out student loans) and for the co-pay on her medications. She pays her portion of doctor bills and hospital bills on a payment plan with whatever is left. She has medical insurance through her employer's group plan which is why she works Saturdays because she has to average at least 35 hours per week to be eligible.

What would your advice to this person be? Maintain medical insurance or no?

deleted as premature

Wow... this literally jumped right out of your drama: She receives no support of any kind from her family or anyone else.

Why not?

That's what families and friends do. It's called love.

Greg

[Robert Baratheon]

Greg,

Consider the following scenario: A legally emancipated 17-year-old is a senior in high school. She attends high school classes from 8am-11am. She works in an office earning slightly more than minimum wage from 11:30am - 5:30pm M-F and 8am - 2pm Saturdays. Through a specialized program at her local community college, she attends college classes 4 nights a week from 6pm - 10pm. She lives in an efficiency apartment with only the essentials (no phone, no television, no electronic toys). Her car is 10 years old and paid for, but requires frequent maintenance. She receives no support of any kind from her family or anyone else. She was diagnosed with Chron's Disease at age 15, has had one surgery, must maintain a specific diet, and has 3 prescriptions to treat the symptoms of her illness. Even so, she will most likely require another surgery within the next two years. As Chron's is incurable, she accepts that she will need treatment for the rest of her life. After living expenses, most of her "disposable" income is used to pay for her education (she prefers not to take out student loans) and for the co-pay on her medications. She pays her portion of doctor bills and hospital bills on a payment plan with whatever is left. She has medical insurance through her employer's group plan which is why she works Saturdays because she has to average at least 35 hours per week to be eligible.

What would your advice to this person be? Maintain medical insurance or no?

deleted as premature

Wow... this literally jumped right out of your drama: She receives no support of any kind from her family or anyone else.

Why not?

That's what families and friends do. It's called love.

Greg

What a dumb statement. Not everyone has family or friends that can financially support them, and some people's families are cruel or abusive.

[moralist]

He will say that she will make her own choices based on her own values and he would not presume to give anyone else advice.

As Brant notes, he does not argue or even discuss. His echo chamber response is, Ì know you are, but what am I..and then he tells us what he is.

Hey, that's actually pretty good...

Each of us has already chosen how they view this world, and each of us believes that they are making good choices in life as the result of their view. And we all take what we chose and all of its consequences with us to our graves. So naturally others who make different choices arising from another view will be regarded as being flawed because it was the view we had already rejected for the one we chose.

None of us changes the view we each freely chose except by the sheer brute force of the objective reality of the consequences of our own actions. Reality is the only Judge, Jury, and Hangman with the unlimited power to render the final verdict on our choice. So its in each of our own best interests to be mindful of what we set into motion by our own actions, by becoming conscious of what the mechanism is capable of doing before we pull the lever.

Greg