public unions versus the public

[Frediano]

I've done business all over the world ... as a roofer? Just me and my ... bucket of nails. This is news to me. I know I've enjoyed being "disadvantaged," as long as that means making more money than the POTUS for the last twenty years. Could I have made more by being 'principled?' As in, targeting activities that create jobs for folks who think I'm abusing them when I do so? I don't know. Maybe you're right. Hasn't been a problem.

For me.

So, little ole me and my principled behavior has had more of an impact on dis-empowered workers than the line of B.S. being fed to them by left wing union organizers? How does that work, exactly? Because ... I'm nowhere to be found...

Seriously, hasn't been a problem at all. For me. How has all the B.S. guys like you've been feeding them all these years helped them, instead?

I wonder if they'll ever catch on? I don't wonder too much, because it is their problem, not mine. Not even a little bit. I wish them the best of luck.. not only with what they've long embraced, but the consequences of it that they are wearing. Whoda ever thunk that the actual look and feel of 'Social Justice' would look like this -- folks wearing what they espouse?

I guess its time for me to go look for the union label around here. Not seeing too much of it.

Seriously, organize away. The jobs, jobs, jobs are showing up any day now.

[Frediano]

I guess I've been unprincipled --by not employing others. But now I'm confused(not really, and I wasn't confused thirty years ago, either, when this line of shit was first thrown at me)--by taking less of that which falls from the sky, unabetted, all these years, than I would have if I would have ruthlessly employed people(you know, by riding their backs and sucking all the profits from labor), haven't I left more for others to scoop up?

So ... scoop! Scoop it up. Go get it. Form those non-profit co-ops and ... go get it!

Here, I'll even hold my breath, waiting for that to happen.

Sorry, I lied; not going to hold my breath at all; I'm unprincipled after all.

Still, not waiting either, for folks to scoop up that which they claim falls effortlessly from the skies, only to be 'maldistrubuted' -- like rain.

Howzat redistributin' going? Anyone keeping score?

[Frediano]

Was there a point to the 'Fred Bartlett Roofing' comment? And, in order to have a point, wouldn't it have to be, I don't know, ... true? A little true?

Sorry; there is no heading in the Yellow Pages for what I've been doing the last 30 years ... It has been fringe, and niche, and in the cracks.

And lucrative enough.

For me.

Now, go make me feel badly about not working for you and your little mob for the last thirty years...good luck with that. You'll need a time machine.

[caroljane]

It was a real enquiry. I looked at your profile and saw your real name and I googled it, because I was curious. You would not be in my local yellow pages, and you have now said you are under the radar. That is taken into consideration of course.

The context is, I have entered into conversation with you in good faith, and my own work area and personal circumstances would be well known to you if you bothered to check out any of my 8 million posts. which nobody would.

Maybe you a resident of Old Nick's kingdom in ONGTH and I just do not recognize you.

And it's "feel bad", not "feel badly."

I would never speculate about the cognitive process of your emotions.

[caroljane]

The Romantic Realism of storming in with a scornful smile on one's face, was fine for the Scarlet Pimpernel. It does not work so well with real people who expect real evidence of real achievements and are sceptical of pseudonyms. If Fred Bartlett is not your real name, was your grandfather also not a real convict, but just an ordinary farmer trying to get out of Italy?

[Mikee]

Carol, Fred Bartlett is a fine, intelligent, accomplished and insightful man. I look forward to his posts wherever I find them. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Fred, Carol is a Canadian socialist, a poet, a teacher, an anti-handgun bigot, a hockey fan but often good humored and evidently beloved by most people on this site, tolerated by others. Evidently interested in Ayn Rand but I suspect most of this interest is in knocking Ayn down a few pegs amongst her fans. Doesn't check premises, at best is suspicious of anyone successful (reminds be of a friend who proclaims "behind every pile of money is a crime"). Baffling, inscrutable, sometimes maddening, occasionally writes a good poem.

Hope this helps...

[caroljane]

Mikee,thanks, I think.

Fred Bartlett is insightful like I am a chess master, or a world class penalty killer.

[Mikee]

You're welcome. It wasn't intended to be flattering, rather descriptive and accurate. Unless a tree fell on you I'm not sure you would recognize a real world insight.

[caroljane]

Real world insight is something of an oxymoron, if you do not believe as I do not, that the interior world of an individual is the only real world.

[Mikee]

The real world is what still exists when you do not. Real world insight is certainly not an oxymoron. Else all of science is an illusion. You are confused, or you're trying to confuse.

[moralist]

Moralist, just curious - do acquaintances in real life ever describe you as "smug"?

How could they when I only interact with people who are as smug or more smug than I am.

[moralist]

Moralist, just curious - do acquaintances in real life ever describe you as "smug"?

Moralist's smug beggars description.

Disproportionate pride goeth before a fall.

Even passing that judgment carries its own consequences along with it.

[moralist]

As I'm reading all this nonsense about unions, there is a sign over my desk "Unionize this." Been there for a while.

The stench blowing in from these stinking political winds has been in the air my entire adult working life, as has the obvious conclusion: "neither an employee nor employer be." I realized that in the late 70s. I am at the end of a now thirty year career practicing that. I was not, by far, the only person to have ever smelled the prevailing political winds and reached this same conclusion. The folks I did business with all over the world -- all hiding in plain sight -- were usually organized just like I was, most, like, me, without so much as a secretary.

Perhaps this realization by a fringe few -- by those who could -- hasn't had a significant impact on the nature of our economies; I don't know. I do know that for the last 30 years, I put my engineering degrees from Princeton and MIT to work in other than the normal tribal group cluster fuck tracks.

I know it hasn't been a problem for me --nor I suspect, for those I've done business with --in the least.

So unionize away...while you still can. I'll cheer. Maybe they will, too. Who knows?

Here's a toast to the unions.

Good luck to them. Wish them all the best.

And now...unionize this.

Hey Fred.

We each walk parallel paths. I also adopted your business model in the 70's and enjoy the results today. Personal autonomy offers protection from political and economic cycles.

Regards,

Greg

[moralist]

Carol, Fred Bartlett is a fine, intelligent, accomplished and insightful man. I look forward to his posts wherever I find them.

I found myself humming along with the song he sings.

[BaalChatzaf]

Moralist, just curious - do acquaintances in real life ever describe you as "smug"?

Moralist's smug beggars description.

Disproportionate pride goeth before a fall.

Even passing that judgment carries its own consequences along with it.

Taking a dump carries its own consequences along with it.

Question: Is taking a shit a moral issue. Answer: Yes. Once must dump his turds in an ethically acceptable place.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[caroljane]

I guess I've been unprincipled --by not employing others. But now I'm confused(not really, and I wasn't confused thirty years ago, either, when this line of shit was first thrown at me)--by taking less of that which falls from the sky, unabetted, all these years, than I would have if I would have ruthlessly employed people(you know, by riding their backs and sucking all the profits from labor), haven't I left more for others to scoop up?

So ... scoop! Scoop it up. Go get it. Form those non-profit co-ops and ... go get it!

Here, I'll even hold my breath, waiting for that to happen.

Sorry, I lied; not going to hold my breath at all; I'm unprincipled after all.

Still, not waiting either, for folks to scoop up that which they claim falls effortlessly from the skies, only to be 'maldistrubuted' -- like rain.

Howzat redistributin' going? Anyone keeping score?

I was not suggesting you were unprincipled in not employing labour. In fact I am grateful that you didn't , on behalf of the people who did not have to work for you.

I meant that in those thirty years you spent in your niches and fringes, the US labour movement has been continuously weakened by ideology-driven anti-union practices and legislation, without any corresponding strengthening of the mainstream economy or trickling down of wealth to it from the tax cuts for the wealthiest.

[Robert Baratheon]

I meant that in those thirty years you spent in your niches and fringes, the US labour movement has been continuously weakened by ideology-driven anti-union practices and legislation, without any corresponding strengthening of the mainstream economy or trickling down of wealth to it from the tax cuts for the wealthiest.

The economy was fairly strong over the 20-year period preceding the recession we are in now. Union membership consistently declined over this period of stability and prosperity, so It's kind of silly to argue the massive and sudden losses in 2008 were somehow linked to "anti-union" practices and legislation. Seek causal factors elsewhere.

I'm similarly unimpressed with the progressive meme that the middle class has remained stagnant over the past 30-50 years. The standard of living and purchasing power of the average middle-class U.S. family in 2013 is so much higher than it was in 1973, that it's literally incredible to claim that the middle class is no better off. I wasn't alive in 1983, but I remember 1993 and it sucked compared to the many conveniences we take for granted today.

[caroljane]

The decline in membership can be causally linked to the practices and legislation, I think, and I never thought weak labour was a causal factor in the 2008 collapse at all.

Just saying that it can't be shown that union busting has appreciably improved the economy overall.

[caroljane]

Moralist, just curious - do acquaintances in real life ever describe you as "smug"?

How could they when I only interact with people who are as smug or more smug than I am.

I assume you are referring to your interactors in real life. but on the offchance you meant me, I don't think I am smug at all. Two years on OL would knock the smug out of Howard Roark himself. But if am nevertheless, it is not entirely my fault. There is indeed a generic kind of Canadian smugness that most of us are prone to in some degree. We can't help it. Consequentialize that!

[Robert Baratheon]

The decline in membership can be causally linked to the practices and legislation, I think, and I never thought weak labour was a causal factor in the 2008 collapse at all.

Just saying that it can't be shown that union busting has appreciably improved the economy overall.

Outrageous union benefits have caused a string of municipal and corporate bankruptcies across the United States over the past decade. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these bankruptcies were bad for the economy. Therefore, preventing such situations from occurring by limiting union coercive power has been good for it.

[caroljane]

Your argument has merit, but if you contend that removing one factor (unions' coercive powers) will prevent future bankruptcies, you strip all context. I have no doubt that these municipalities and corporations maintained, and even believed, that the unions were the sole cause of the city and company financial woes. But many factors determine a business or municipal failure and are peculiar to each situation. Otherwise, all cities, everywhere, with public unions would fail, as would all businesses with a unionized workforce, solely because of that factor. But they do not fail with enough regularity to justify the theory, imo.

[caroljane]

Also, when the controllable factor of wages and benefits is reduced to its lowest possible number in the Outgoings column, there is no guarantee that revenue will be correspondingly increased or even maintained. For the municipality the main source of revenue I believe is taxes, and who is going to pay them? The Right to Work outfit you attracted with a huge tax break to hire a few of your newly deunionized workers ? The workers themselves who can now not afford their property taxes, or even sell their houses except at a loss? rising class of aggressive entrepeneurs with brilliant ideas and no capital and no backers? The richest guy in town, a one-man corporation and legal resident of Costa Rica who does all his business offshore?

There is always tourism of course. And moving away, even if you are the mayor. Write if you get work, and send some money home.

There were ghost towns long before there were unions and there will be long after they have disappeared.

[Robert Baratheon]

Your narrative of anti-union legislation causing "ghost towns" doesn't exactly jive with the reality that Michigan and Rhode Island - undoubtedly two of the historically strongest union states - have been the only two U.S. states losing population in recent years, and have been two of the most economically depressed. Since Rhode Island remains a union stronghold and hasn't passed right-to-work legislation, and Michigan just passed the legislation within the past year, blaming their decades-long economic decline on union-busting fails the laugh test. Municipal bankruptcies are potentially the most reliable way of creating the ghost towns you describe, and neither state has had a shortage of filings in recent years as a result of their jaw-droppingly obscene public pension obligations.

I've heard it theorized that unions operate along the parasitic biological lifecycle - meaning that any organization to which they attach themselves will inevitably ail and die as the union weakens its host and grows in power over time. The airline industry, the steel industry, the automobile industry, and many other bankrupted unionized industries from recent U.S. history seem to bear out this hypothesis. Even governments, it seems, cannot continue feeding their intestinal worms indefinitely.

[caroljane]

!!!!!

I explicitly said that it is NOT unions that cause ghost towns!

And I explicitly said that union busting is not proven to CAUSE economic declines as a stand-alone factor.

Trends that cause decades-long declines in certain regions or industries are always multi-factoral, and the single factor of labour "w is not proven to be the deciding one.

to "what you've heard theorized", yes I have heard that theorized for decades. It's not a theory, it is just a way of looking at things. Lice and parasites, as Rand like to describe the unwashed masses, in fact killed very few individuals by themselves, or even in organized hordes, just as bedbugs allowed most healthy individuals in the pre-hygiene era to suvrive.

[caroljane]

I will also suggest an amendment to that beloved metaphor. While being sacrified to the lice and parasites, the noble soul in the incomparable body was being sustained by a nourishing diet of Aristotelian ambrosia for carbs, and for protein, you guessed it, lice and parasites.