Hi, from a new guy...


moralist

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This forum was recommended, so here I am.

It's fair that you know up front who and what I am. Understanding from where a person's view originates is always useful in accurately crafting an effective response to it.

I'm male, married, Grandfather, Christian, Conservative, independent private sector Capitalist entrepreneur businessman whose choices are heavily inspired by Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. I see no conflict between Objectivism and Christianity because I don't buy into to the weak feminized limp wristed liberal doormat interpretation of Christianity which has become the current popular collective cultural religious consensus.

My main interest is in the moral aspects of life... so I'm moralist. :smile:

I look forward to adding my input along with yours to this forum.

Regards,

Greg

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blah, blah, bah. Welcome aboard and all that. If you really have anything to contribute you will. We have a ton of Forums here. Feel free to prove yourself, or else, fall by the wayside.

So, do you believe in "the historical Jesus" or do you assert "the Divine Jesus" who was at once both identical and not equal to The Father? (Just asking.)

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blah, blah, bah. Welcome aboard and all that. If you really have anything to contribute you will. We have a ton of Forums here. Feel free to prove yourself, or else, fall by the wayside.

So, do you believe in "the historical Jesus" or do you assert "the Divine Jesus" who was at once both identical and not equal to The Father? (Just asking.)

While I don't personally know about the details because I wasn't there then... I do personally enjoy the results today because I'm here now. Today there is nothing between man and his Conscience, and so there is no longer any excuse for not knowing what's right and wrong.

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Welcome to OL.

Michael gets a little cranky every now and then, must be all that healthy "stuff" he takes!

A...

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Greg,

Welcome aboard.

I've seen a couple of your posts and, based on that, you seem to be someone I will be glad to know.

I'm not a Christian, but I like Christians of your stripe. Good people. And I'm always up for good people.

btw - There are lots of good people around here, too.

Don't worry about MM. He barks, but doesn't bite. Sort of like a dog that chases a car, but gets confused when the car stops and he gets to the tire. He knows he was threatening to do something and he is supposed to do something, but suddenly he doesn't know what it is.

:smile:

MM's actually good people, too. Quirky as all get-out and delightfully so.

So go ahead and make yourself at home. I hope you have a good time around here.

Michael

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Welcome Greg. Ignore Marotta, ("blah, blah, blah" indeed). As far as I know the Christians are the only religious group who believe in free will. I surmise the roots of individualism could only have come from Christians and therefore respect Christians and Christianity though I am an atheist. I attended Mormon church growing up, left at 15 because of a lack of faith (I simply didn't believe in any of it). I missed my Mormon friends but could not live a lie. I look forward to your contributions and I think I will like your pov.

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My main interest is in the moral aspects of life... so I'm moralist. :smile:

I am in my late 70's One lesson I have learned is that good manners is more important than morality.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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How about, they're both important.

Yes. Morality is internal. Good/Bad manners show.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Welcome to OL, Greg Mamishian.

If this is you, good for you. I like your No vote very much.*

I thought your reply to Michael insinuated a very liberal theology, if not a liberal politics.

Stephen

Hey Stephen, :smile:

Yes, that's me. I registered under the same screen name as in the other forum because I'm not into hiding. :wink:

Regards,

Greg

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My main interest is in the moral aspects of life... so I'm moralist. :smile:

I am in my late 70's One lesson I have learned is that good manners is more important than morality.

Ba'al Chatzaf

... just as good behavior is more important than good intentions.

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I'm not a Christian, but I like Christians of your stripe. Good people. And I'm always up for good people.

If you could remove all of the cultural, social, and religious trappings... it would be impossible to tell the difference between the moral behavior of a good Christian, or a good Jew, or a good atheist.

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My main interest is in the moral aspects of life... so I'm moralist. :smile:

I am in my late 70's One lesson I have learned is that good manners is more important than morality.

Ba'al Chatzaf

... just as good behavior is more important than good intentions.

Amen and Selah! What you say is true for the same reason what I said is true. Good intentions are internal. Overt behavior is visible.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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"just as good behavior is more important than good intentions."

Moralist, you've peaked my interest, but could you elaborate a bit. I'm trying to figure out how they differ and how they can clash. Thanks.

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I believe intentions and actions are important--equally so.

When people have ill intentions, even though they do good actions, that ill-intended cancer tends to grow and fester. Eventually it erupts and if people are not looking at intentions, no one knows where the explosion or wrongdoing came from. Ferreting out ill intentions and encouraging good ones is called leadership.

The whole purpose of intellectual battles is to convince people to change their intentions. If you change their intentions, their actions will generally take care of themselves.

I constantly say that freedom only works when people intend to be good people. If you take a group of hardened convicts, drop them on a desert island, give them a constitution with enumerated rights and tell them they are free, come back in 6 months and see what you have. Heh. Anything but freedom. Gang warfare is what you'll have, if any are still left alive.

Bad intentions lead to bad actions.

Any sales person worth his salt knows you sell the imagined experience, the intended use, not the product. That is if you don't want skinny kids.

The actual sale is important, too. But the physical transaction does little to entice people to buy your product over that of your competitor. And, whether people like it or not, quality and price are merely factors in a wider mix--and, with a few exception, not even the most important factors for making a sale. The intended experience of the buyer is far more motivating to him than the quality or price of the product.

The sale doesn't just work well without the intention of the buyer. Marketing and advertising run on this principle.

Also, what is morality if not intention? Rand called morality, "a code of values to guide man's choices." What is that if not intention?

So are actions more important than ethics? To me, that's a silly comparison. Both are important to life.

Even in the USA justice system, intent and motive bear strong weight in meting out punishment, not just the action. An accidental killing of someone is seen differently than premeditated murder. The victim is just as dead either way, but the justice differs.

Michael

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I believe intentions and actions are important--equally so.

The only intentions you know for sure are your own (and even that is imperfect first hand knowledge). Anything else is pseudo "mind reading" and guessing what the other fellow is thinking. All we can know are our own internal states (and even then imperfectly) and the external, public overt observed actions of others. We hear speech, we read writing, we smell body odor, we see bodily motions and any of those could be forms of deceit (ever heard of acting or lying?). The only true first hand knowledge we have that that given to us by our own perception and even that can be faulty. Anything else is second hand and taken with some degree of faith.

If you have not been to Antarctica the only thing you know about Antarctica is pictures and tales. That is all second hand and you accept it only on the faith that no one is trying to deceive you. The only true knowledge if first hand knowledge. Each of us has little of that and what we have mostly is second hand and hear-say or photo graphs or recordings. Any of which can be faked. Please see the movie: Wag The Dog.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Michael, so if I do a good deed but for my own bad reasons, it's my intensions that are bad. So the good deed is more important than my rotten intensions? Not quite wrapping my head around this.

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Michael, so if I do a good deed but for my own bad reasons, it's my intensions that are bad. So the good deed is more important than my rotten intensions? Not quite wrapping my head around this.

The only thing others can know for sure is your publicly done deed. Your intentions are your intentions and no one else's.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Michael, so if I do a good deed but for my own bad reasons, it's my intensions that are bad. So the good deed is more important than my rotten intensions? Not quite wrapping my head around this.

Ginny,

Part of the problem with making overly-broad comparisons is that the reason gets left out. Why are you making the comparison?

By way of example, which organ is more important to human life, the heart or the liver? You die without either or both.

To answer your question, let's look at who stands to be affected and how. After all, if you are going to make a comparison of better and worse (i.e, more important) you have to answer the question: Better or worse to whom?

if you are looking through the eyes of the good deed-doer, I believe an ill intention in the short term does not matter too much. In the long term, the ill intention reinforces a bad pattern in his personality that will most likely have bad consequences.

To the receiver of the good deed, once again, in the short term, there is no difference to speak of. But in the long term, this can be disastrous. He can start trusting a person with bad intentions.

We all know what that's like.

Short term, the intention does not matter so much. Long term an ill intention is toxic.

So what is more important to a human being, the short term or the long term? The heart or the liver?

I say they both are critical. You can't have one without the other and still be human.

Michael

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