Ayn Rand on Gun Control

[dennislmay]

Now we're being like Montgomery Cliff and John Wayne comparing pistols in Red River.

--Brant

Don't recall that movie but I agree. It is on YouTube in 13 parts if you recall what part of the movie that part is.

Dennis

Don't think it is Wayne and Clift, but Clift and the "new hand" who is a very fast gun from the Missouri border wars maybe. I am embarrassed to say that I have never seen this movie which I will be rectifying by Sunday night.

Try beginning at 8:44 of this section...there is a great line in the exchange about the next two (2) best things in the world to a fine handgun, 1) a swiss watch and 2) any woman...he then asks Clift if he has ever had a swiss watch! Excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RXakmn2KEM&feature=BFa&list=PLE9EEA8A76C88AC1F&lf=plcp

I can't shoot that well but I have met a few people who can. One really young local guy shoots marbles thrown into the air with a .22 - he is that good with a bow also.

Dennis

[Dglgmut]

bunch of eighteen-year-olds, each of them carrying a loaded gun, during an evening in a discotheque where they also have a couple of drinks) - this may well happen.

A bunch of drunk 18-year-olds occasionally leads to an avoidable death without guns. You're taking the sort of situation where someone gets beaten to death and replacing it with a bullet through the chest--not that big a deal.

By your logic should people be allowed to drive cars?

The reason I made the Catch-22 point is that you've said that in moving towards a rational society people wouldn't carry guns. I'd say, in a rational society, everyone would have a gun, because not anyone could guarantee that everyone else was as rational as they were. In a rational society people would be independent.

I wish nobody had a gun. I wish there wasn't such a thing as guns, but that doesn't mean it would be rational for everyone not to carry them because that is not dealing with reality.

Saying that people are irresponsible in places without guns, and so they will be irresponsible with guns is not a useful argument because as the situation changes people will behave differently. The way people act in relatively safe situations will not accurately reflect their behavior in dangerous ones.

Yes, guns are dangerous, but so are the subway tracks. There are so many situations where an irresponsible act could kill someone, but we deal with them if it's worth it. It is definitely worth the rare accident, by which people would become more and more cautious, to have each individual capable of protecting themselves.

The argument is really whether you believe certain people should have more power than others, by law. Guns exist, so you know at least some people will have them.

[dennislmay]

You're taking the sort of situation where someone gets beaten to death and replacing it with a bullet through the chest--not that big a deal.

The only murder I've been present at was a stabbing in a mall in Dayton Ohio, young kids on shoplifting spree and they killed a mall guard.

A few blocks from where I lived in Dayton a pizza restaurant manager I had met before was robbed and kicked to death walking home

from work. One of my older cousins told me about the old wild days in bars in Missouri where there were always fights every Friday and

Saturday night with someone going to the hospital. That is now at most a 1-2 times a year problem in most local bars. Some less than that.

The primary change is stiff sentences for fighting and fewer people going to bars because of drunk driving arrests and depopulation of the

area due to government regulation driving out businesses.

The only gun or knife related bar problem I've heard of here for 19 years both happened at the same dance club/bar and both times it was drug

dealers from St. Louis stirring things up at closing time outside the bar. A lot of people keep hunting rifles in their trucks parked outside the bar

so not much stupidity goes on inside other than some fist fights or cat fights.

Dennis

[Brant Gaede]

"Nobody had a gun." You wish. I wish nobody gets raped. Your wish comes true means rape will stop too? In 1964 I got drunk at an outdoor end of semester party drinking red and white and someone got it into his head he was going to drive off with me and rape me. I stabbed his arm with a knife. The next day my macho brother in law poured me a double whiskey as a pat on the back. Do you wish nobody had a knife? Years ago in California a serial rapist-murderer broke into a woman's house she shared with her young son. He gave her a deal. She would submit to him sexually or he would rape her boy. She agreed to be violated instead. I don't recall if he had a knife or gun, but he let them live, which mistake got him caught. Let's say he had a knife and "nobody had a gun" because she didn't. That was too bad for her. In the 19th Century a revolver was called the "Equalizer."

--Brant

in Arizona and many other states an adult can go and get a wide variety of firearms without restrictions. I can carry concealed without a permit

[Xray]

I do not live in a high crime neighborhood, but anyone can drive in from anywhere in a few minutes. I know how to use a gun and I know I can kill someone. If I have to shoot it's deadly force self defense and aim will be center mass and that man will be dead, not law suiting me later. I will not pull the trigger only once. Unlike Hollywood, a man cannot be knocked down by a handgun round. Even a .357 will leave him standing for a second or two so he'll get at least one more. Even a man dead on his feet tends to go down rather slowly. If I'm shooting the lighter 9mm I'll put at least five rounds into him. You cannot stop and evaluate after one or two. That could be the end of you.

In concealed carry classes they teach to shoot until they are no longer resisting or are incapacitated. That will vary case to case. The latest wisdom is that 9mm in on the weak end of self protection for your primary carry gun. 9 mm is going to be phased out as the standard military handgun caliber because it has shown itself to be inadequate in many cases. 9mm is on the big side of what is used for a hidden backup gun but some of the latest small models will work for that purpose - a little too big for my taste. I can't say I have a favorite caliber for primary but I like .380 ACP for small hidden backup. Anything bigger than 9mm in power should work for primary.

Dennis May

I used to own a .380 Colt Mustang. It was stolen. I'm glad it's gone. I'm not into head shots.

--Brant

.380 Colt Mustang resembles the recent line of Sig-Sauer 1911 model .380 autos. The Sig looks nice - the plastic holsters that come with them are no good at all and they snag on woven plastic holsters that would be appropriate for that size. The Ruger .380 LCP in .380 is very popular right now but very short range.

If you go .50 GI in a Glock-20 or 21 frame with 300 grain bullets you will likely feel no need to go larger any time soon.

Dennis

I have a Glock 40 cal. with a laser sight. It's not difficult to shoot, feeds flawlessly & holds 15 in the mag. A nice frearm.

Your Glock, 40 S&W cal. is the most popular choice in semi-auto main carry guns for several years now. It is also the most popular

choice for police and game wardens. Hard to go wrong with that.

Dennis

A 12 gauge with a pistol grip, hits like the hammer of Thor & is good in tight quarters. That will be my next purchase.

Ammo prices have been on the rise so it's prudent to acquire as much as you can afford while you can.

Semi auto I assume you will be acquiring.

Now we're being like Montgomery Cliff and John Wayne comparing pistols in Red River.

--Brant

Don't recall that movie but I agree. It is on YouTube in 13 parts if you recall what part of the movie that part is.

Dennis

Don't think it is Wayne and Clift, but Clift and the "new hand" who is a very fast gun from the Missouri border wars maybe. I am embarrassed to say that I have never seen this movie which I will be rectifying by Sunday night.

Try beginning at 8:44 of this section...there is a great line in the exchange about the next two (2) best things in the world to a fine handgun, 1) a swiss watch and 2) any woman...he then asks Clift if he has ever had a swiss watch! Excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RXakmn2KEM&feature=BFa&list=PLE9EEA8A76C88AC1F&lf=plcp

I can't shoot that well but I have met a few people who can. One really young local guy shoots marbles thrown into the air with a .22 - he is that good with a bow also.

Dennis

I have just tried tried (in vain) to imagine some women having a detailed talk about guns. No surprise; women don't have the evolutionary "hunter/warrior" heritage. .

[Selene]

I have just tried tried (in vain) to imagine some women having a detailed talk about guns. No surprise; women don't have an evolutionary heritage as hunters. .

Angela, FYI:

This lady is a nurse and has a perspective that you should be aware of.

From a Woman’s Perspective

Commentary

by Melissa Allison, Former Director KC3

I will admit it right from the start; I am a new gun owner. Less than a year ago I would have been more likely to be a member of the Million Mom March than a board member of the Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed. However, as the saying goes, "Times change" and so have my views of guns and gun ownership. I now understand the value of protecting the right to carry concealed weapons. My change of heart resulted in shooting IDPA, joining KC3, and becoming a member of the board of directors. As a member, I have taken the task of writing a column for the newsletter that specifically addresses the needs of women as they relate to concealed carry and gun ownership. In future issues I would like to address various topics of interest to women; however, for this issue I thought it would be appropriate to simply introduce myself and chronicle my journey into the realm of concealed carry.

http://www.kc3.com/editorial/womans_perspective.htm

The following are actual situations wherein the tool, the gun, had a beneficial effect on people's lives and property:

http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/Self_Defense.htm

More to follow when you digest this information.

Adam

[Selene]

This message is from Tactical-Pink to European journalists, who call her organization for interviews, and, is, without a doubt, a beautifully succinct statement by a female American citizen:

Empowering Women Through Gun Knowledge

If you are a journalist, please read this before contacting Tactical Pink.

Europe and the UK seem to have a fascination with those of us in America who believe in our innate right to self defense, and keeping the tools with which to defend ourselves and our families. Journalists from countries who have stripped their law abiding citizens of their means of self defense, and enabled violent criminals to prey on the innocent people of their country, are continuously contacting me for interviews so their readers can marvel at American women who shoot and carry guns. These journalists say their readers want to "understand" our interest in firearms.

While I myself do not understand those who voluntarily and forcibly disarm both themselves and their fellow law abiding citizens, then feel the need to cross an ocean to gawk at their sisters-in-arms, I am happy to help my European cousins understand the mindset of freedom. I believe the first step to understanding our Second Amendment guarantee to arms, is to understand arms themselves. With knowledge comes understanding. I will teach any female foreign journalist to shoot, with the same methods I use to teach my American students, at the going instructional rate, after which I will be happy to grant an interview for print or film. Conscientious, professional, objective journalists are welcome in the land of the First and Second Amendments.

If you are not willing to come to the US to go through the handgun training course, go lobby your parliament for the right to learn about firearms where you live, then call me back.

Cheers!

Liv

You go girl!!!!

Adam

[Xray]

Where I lived in rural Nebraska in high school was by every measure of freedom more advanced than any city I've been in since. We didn't have to assume every kid walking around with a gun was a pyschopath - because they didn't raise psysopaths in rural Nebraska. The old Rand saying goes "check your premises". Which in this case means - check your cultural bias at the door.

Any checking of cultural biases goes both ways i. e. the other party checks his/her own too.

Let us therefore make a sincere effort to look at the issue as objectively as we can, and if bias should still crop up, identify it as such.

Re the past "rural Nebraska" you mentioned: rural societies tend to be more uniform in their shared values than the more complex-structured urban areas.

But uniformity is usually connected with a fairly strong social control.

[Xray]

Europe and the UK seem to have a fascination with those of us in America who believe in our innate right to self defense, and keeping the tools with which to defend ourselves and our families. Journalists from countries who have stripped their law abiding citizens of their means of self defense, and enabled violent criminals to prey on the innocent people of their country, are continuously contacting me for interviews so their readers can marvel at American women who shoot and carry guns. These journalists say their readers want to "understand" our interest in firearms.

The deeply ingrained interest also has its roots in American history, when pioneers and settlers ventured out into the "Wild" West, where one would have been lost without a gun.

[Selene]

Europe and the UK seem to have a fascination with those of us in America who believe in our innate right to self defense, and keeping the tools with which to defend ourselves and our families. Journalists from countries who have stripped their law abiding citizens of their means of self defense, and enabled violent criminals to prey on the innocent people of their country, are continuously contacting me for interviews so their readers can marvel at American women who shoot and carry guns. These journalists say their readers want to "understand" our interest in firearms.

The deeply ingrained interest also has its roots in American history, when pioneers and settlers ventured out into the "Wild" West, where one would have been lost without a gun.

Angela:

Is this insight from your study of original sources or watching American Western movies?

Adam

[Xray]

Europe and the UK seem to have a fascination with those of us in America who believe in our innate right to self defense, and keeping the tools with which to defend ourselves and our families. Journalists from countries who have stripped their law abiding citizens of their means of self defense, and enabled violent criminals to prey on the innocent people of their country, are continuously contacting me for interviews so their readers can marvel at American women who shoot and carry guns. These journalists say their readers want to "understand" our interest in firearms.

The deeply ingrained interest also has its roots in American history, when pioneers and settlers ventured out into the "Wild" West, where one would have been lost without a gun.

Angela:

Is this insight from your study of original sources or watching American Western movies?

Adam

It started with American Western Movies I watched as kid, but I also have some good originial sources, like the Old West Time/Life series, of which I have some volumes.

[Selene]

It started with American Western Movies I watched as kid, but I also have some good originial sources, like the Old West Time/Life series, of which I have some volumes.

Angela:

The deeply ingrained interest also has its roots in American history, when pioneers and settlers ventured out into the "Wild" West, where one would have been lost without a gun.

The highlighted part is what caught my interest. Prior to "venturing out into the 'Wild' West," Colonialist Americans understood the relationship of a weapon and their freedom.

There is a tremendous difference with having some basic comfort levels with a "long gun," for example, a musket, single shot rifle, winchester lever action, or other "guns" that would have been available for use in colonial, "pioneer," or, "settler" times.

These weapons would be used primarily for hunting, secondarily for defense against predators, both animal and human animal.

However, the use of these weapons was limited and certainly not as "picturesque" as the movies.

Certainly, there is a much greater comfort zone within the American culture for the respect and use of firearms.

It stems, not only from a survival mythology ingrained in our colonial and frontier realities, but in a deeply ingrained sense of the natural and/or God given rights that stemmed from our Constitutional Republic's understanding of the connection between human freedom from government control and the connection of the inalienable right of the free citizen to bear arms against an enemy, which, includes the government,

Adam

[Backlighting]

Dennis,

I recently purchased a .22lr conversion for the Glock 40 cal. It consists of a slide, barrel, spring & 15 round mag. It's made by Tactical Solutions. Costs about $300. Nice for plinking, practicing & rodent or small game hunting + 22 ammo only costs about $7 per hundred rounds.

Adam,

A Remington semi-auto in 12 gauge is my first choice. The recoil is less vs. the pump action, but the price is higher.

-Joe

[Xray]

Don't think it is Wayne and Clift, but Clift and the "new hand" who is a very fast gun from the Missouri border wars maybe.

<...>

Try beginning at 8:44 of this section...there is a great line in the exchange about the next two (2) best things in the world to a fine handgun, 1) a swiss watch and 2) any woman...he then asks Clift if he has ever had a swiss watch! Excellent.

The scene at 8:44 is between John Ireland (as Cherry Valance) and Clift (as Matt Garth).

The picture here on YouTube shows Walter Brennan (as Nadine Groot) with Clift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RXakmn2KEM&feature=BFa&list=PLE9EEA8A76C88AC1F&lf=plcp

I am embarrassed to say that I have never seen this movie which I will be rectifying by Sunday night.

Adam,

I'm sure you'll love 'Red River'! It is one of the best Westerns ever made. The cast, the story, the dialogues, the dramatic scenes - everything, simply everything in this film is superb!!

[Selene]

Don't think it is Wayne and Clift, but Clift and the "new hand" who is a very fast gun from the Missouri border wars maybe.

<...>

Try beginning at 8:44 of this section...there is a great line in the exchange about the next two (2) best things in the world to a fine handgun, 1) a swiss watch and 2) any woman...he then asks Clift if he has ever had a swiss watch! Excellent.

The scene at 8:44 is between John Ireland (as Cherry Valance) and Clift (as Matt Garth).

The picture here on YouTube shows Walter Brennan (as Nadine Groot) with Clift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RXakmn2KEM&feature=BFa&list=PLE9EEA8A76C88AC1F&lf=plcp

I am embarrassed to say that I have never seen this movie which I will be rectifying by Sunday night.

Adam,

I'm sure you'll love 'Red River'! It is one of the best Westerns ever made. The cast, the story, the dialogues, the dramatic scenes - everything, simply everything in this film is superb!!

Angela:

I finished watching it at 4 AM this morning, and yes, it is a great film. I added it to my top 200 list and that leaves only 27 slots left.

As to the pistol comparing scene, I gave 8:44 as the time reference from where to begin to watch the film section. The scene with Ireland and Clift starts a few seconds after that.

As to now having a common reference point. The wagon train under attack scene later in the picture shows that the woman knew how to fire a rifle, but was not "skilled" with the weapon as she kept firing high. Excellent scene wherein the sexual tension is exquisitely wrapped underneath the "surface" action.

Superior film.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Now we're being like Montgomery Cliff and John Wayne comparing pistols in Red River.

--Brant

Don't recall that movie but I agree. It is on YouTube in 13 parts if you recall what part of the movie that part is.

Dennis

Don't think it is Wayne and Clift, but Clift and the "new hand" who is a very fast gun from the Missouri border wars maybe. I am embarrassed to say that I have never seen this movie which I will be rectifying by Sunday night.

Try beginning at 8:44 of this section...there is a great line in the exchange about the next two (2) best things in the world to a fine handgun, 1) a swiss watch and 2) any woman...he then asks Clift if he has ever had a swiss watch! Excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RXakmn2KEM&feature=BFa&list=PLE9EEA8A76C88AC1F&lf=plcp

I can't shoot that well but I have met a few people who can. One really young local guy shoots marbles thrown into the air with a .22 - he is that good with a bow also.

Dennis

I have just tried tried (in vain) to imagine some women having a detailed talk about guns. No surprise; women don't have the evolutionary "hunter/warrior" heritage. .

Talk about homoerotic! No wonder John Wayne wasn't in it. Cliff was so queer he turned down his friend Marilyn ("You've got a great ass!") Monroe. Ireland liked young starlets. According to Wikipedia he was 45 dating 16 yo Tuesday Weld, I guess in 1959 or 60.

--Brant

[dennislmay]

Where I lived in rural Nebraska in high school was by every measure of freedom more advanced than any city I've been in since. We didn't have to assume every kid walking around with a gun was a pyschopath - because they didn't raise psysopaths in rural Nebraska. The old Rand saying goes "check your premises". Which in this case means - check your cultural bias at the door.

Any checking of cultural biases goes both ways i. e. the other party checks his/her own too.

Let us therefore make a sincere effort to look at the issue as objectively as we can, and if bias should still crop up, identify it as such.

Re the past "rural Nebraska" you mentioned: rural societies tend to be more uniform in their shared values than the more complex-structured urban areas.

But uniformity is usually connected with a fairly strong social control.

I visited my home town in Nebraska last summer for a few days - if anything it has improved. I agree there is uniformity - people who do not fit in do in

fact tend to move and go to the cities where they then become a problem for the cities. Drug abuse being the primary factor keeping anyone from not

fitting in. Different ethnic/racial groups or sexual orientation never drove anyone out since some are long term residents. Drugs or violent behavior are

another issue.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

Where I lived in rural Nebraska in high school was by every measure of freedom more advanced than any city I've been in since. We didn't have to assume every kid walking around with a gun was a pyschopath - because they didn't raise psysopaths in rural Nebraska. The old Rand saying goes "check your premises". Which in this case means - check your cultural bias at the door.

Any checking of cultural biases goes both ways i. e. the other party checks his/her own too.

Let us therefore make a sincere effort to look at the issue as objectively as we can, and if bias should still crop up, identify it as such.

Re the past "rural Nebraska" you mentioned: rural societies tend to be more uniform in their shared values than the more complex-structured urban areas.

But uniformity is usually connected with a fairly strong social control.

I visited my home town in Nebraska last summer for a few days - if anything it has improved. I agree there is uniformity - people who do not fit in do in

fact tend to move and go to the cities where they then become a problem for the cities. Drug abuse being the primary factor keeping anyone from not

fitting in. Different ethnic/racial groups or sexual orientation never drove anyone out since some are long term residents. Drugs or violent behavior are

another issue.

Dennis

The government ruining the farm economy has created an unstable situation in many small rural towns - the problem is extremely pronounced in my home town. Young women leave for the cities leaving behind large numbers of bachelor farmers. The average age of farmers has hovered right at retirement age for going on 20 years now. What has changed is that the many of the farmers in my home town around the age of 50 are single with no kids to replace them when they retire. This is leading to farm consolidations with the few remaining farms growing larger and larger with fewer and fewer people to work them. The next financial hiccup is going to lead to a severe farming crisis - something Beck has been talking about quite a bit lately.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

Where I lived in rural Nebraska in high school was by every measure of freedom more advanced than any city I've been in since. We didn't have to assume every kid walking around with a gun was a pyschopath - because they didn't raise psysopaths in rural Nebraska. The old Rand saying goes "check your premises". Which in this case means - check your cultural bias at the door.

Any checking of cultural biases goes both ways i. e. the other party checks his/her own too.

Let us therefore make a sincere effort to look at the issue as objectively as we can, and if bias should still crop up, identify it as such.

Re the past "rural Nebraska" you mentioned: rural societies tend to be more uniform in their shared values than the more complex-structured urban areas.

But uniformity is usually connected with a fairly strong social control.

I visited my home town in Nebraska last summer for a few days - if anything it has improved. I agree there is uniformity - people who do not fit in do in

fact tend to move and go to the cities where they then become a problem for the cities.

The question of uniformity also applies to violence in foreign countries. Some of the Northern European countries with small populations, monocultures, stagnant economies, high taxation, no immigrants, and declining populations are cited as things to emulate as far as economic theory, health care, and gun control. Like dying rural towns there is more to the story. Problem people, people seeking business growth, and many young people seeking opportunity simply leave. The economic problems are caused by socialist intervention - in the case of US rural areas it is the federal government causing the problem.

Depopulating young women from rural communities is an interesting move - one I believe the socialists have intended. Have some one else pay for an education designed for young women and depopulate rural areas - few will return once they owe for student loans and cannot make the money to pay it back in rural areas fighting government created poverty.

Dennis

[Selene]

This is an excellent thread...

 

The following is the video that won the Libertarian Parties video contest and it is apropos, whatever that means, to this discussion on the Second Amendment and gun control, which, is completely unconstitutional.

 

 

Adam

[Dglgmut]

Even with a gun she'd be very vulnerable to attacks from her left. with that hair...

Anecdotes are good for making your point when the issue is as seemingly complex as gun control. That's what people need in order to understand, I think, stories. A pop-up book would probably be even more effective.

[Selene]

"...when the issue is as seemingly complex as gun control."

Calvin:

How is this a complicated issue?

We have a clear Second Amendment that has been validated by a Supreme Court vote.

We have an overwhelming statistical body of evidence that establishes that violent "crime" significantly decreases when the percentage of the armed citizenry increases.

And, we have a plethora of anecdotal evidence that armed citizens save lives, deter violent crime and reduces stress on the communities citizenry.

So where is the complication?

Adam

[dennislmay]

"...when the issue is as seemingly complex as gun control."

How is this a complicated issue?

I was going to reply with exactly that same phrase.

It is not a complicated issue - but those opposed to freedom are

able to muddy the waters and fool a great many people into

believing it is a complicated issue. Many people are unable

to extract the fundamentals of an issue from the chaff used

to distract for political purposes.

Dennis

[Selene]

"...when the issue is as seemingly complex as gun control."

How is this a complicated issue?

I was going to reply with exactly that same phrase.

It is not a complicated issue - but those opposed to freedom are able to muddy the waters and fool a great many people into

believing it is a complicated issue. Many people are unable to extract the fundamentals of an issue from the chaff used

to distract for political purposes.

Dennis

Precisely Dennis.

The irrational fear of a "GUN" has become so ingrained in our culture as to rival the mystical belief in global warming!

One would imagine that the "GUN" crouches conspiratorially in the closet, just waiting to spring into the hands of the unsuspecting owner, and then by osmosis, take over his/her mind, and rush to a mall, or school and start slaughtering innocent shoppers and children!

Meanwhile, the car is more lethal and we even give O'bama's illegal alien uncle, who plead guilty to a DUI charge in Massachusetts, a legal driver's license so that he can drive to and from his work as a clerk in a liquor store!!!!

Let's see...1) ILLEGAL 2) ALIEN 3) UNDER A DEPORTATION ORDER ..............ergo ..........we reward him and do not deport him, but we will make it a living hell for a US CITIZEN to obtain a license to carry a legal firearm under the Second Amendment!

Despicable.

Adam

[Backlighting]

Should the present Administration get a second term I expect to see a push for greater gun control and at the very least, a hefty surcharge on ammo-all in the name of the "public good".