Would it be moral?

[Selene]

Lol. No, I would never make providing my opinion as conditional on a person reading Atlas. Ayn would certainly deny that her philosophy would condone "doing what you want," if, for example, you wanted to initiate force and take her property.

Are you a student? Working slave for the state? Entrepreneur?

Also, you should be aware that OL is not a "rigid," tow the Objectivist line forum. Many here are not Objectivists, but most treasure what Ayn created in terms of concepts and thought.

Adam

I understand.

I'm an upcoming-senior into high school, and the only actual work I do besides my own personal novel-writing is the back line of Mcdonalds.

Excellent! Maybe you can provide us with a sample of your writing. Is that a public high school or a competent high school?

[CSpeciale]

I understand.

I'm an upcoming-senior into high school, and the only actual work I do besides my own personal novel-writing is the back line of Mcdonalds.

Excellent! Maybe you can provide us with a sample of your writing. Is that a public high school or a competent high school?

It's a public high school. The only people I hang out with there are the ones who, like me, are NOT local to the region.

Perhaps I could sample you guys. I'm very picky about where I leak my unprotected work, though. At any rate, most of my poetry is very inadequate. I've only recently learned how to write a love poem without using the word "love" in it. In my opinion, that's the GOOD kind of poetry. Anyway, there's a link to all of my protected work on my profile. I've got half of a novel uploaded on there. x) It's a speculative fiction, and it's not very good either.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Speciale

[caroljane]

Carol:

This clearly qualifies you for the annual Jeff Riggenbach Award for the Anti Phil Coates Memorial Schoolmarm Correction of Grammar trophy!

I accept with humble gratitude and trembling awe of those giants on whose shoulders I would stand if they would only keep still.

[Selene]

Christopher:

That is a very cool website. I like the way the poems self scroll. I am old enough to still be amazed by the technology you young folks have at your fingertips.

Adam

[CSpeciale]

Christopher:

That is a very cool website. I like the way the poems self scroll. I am old enough to still be amazed by the technology you young folks have at your fingertips.

Adam

Oh, you can click on each thumbnail and it'll bring you to a full page where you don't have to wait for the next line to scroll up. And believe me, I keep getting amazed too. I mean... maybe two years ago, I don't think the word "terabyte" even existed! Now they've got computers with hard drives that large, as if it were as simple to make as a pen. (And even THOSE are getting upgrades too!)

[Selene]

A terabyte is a multiple of the unit byte for digital information. The prefix tera means 10¹² in the International System of Units (SI), and therefore 1 terabyte is 1000000000000bytes, or 1 trillion (short scale) bytes, or 1000 gigabytes. 1 terabyte in binary prefixes is 0.9095 tebibytes, or 931.32 gibibytes. The unit symbol for the terabyte is TB or Tbyte

These numbers make me numb!

[caroljane]

Is that a public high school or a competent high school?

Competent at what? Do you have evidence that private schools consistently produce more "competent" graduates?

Carol

public education wage slave

[Selene]

Is that a public high school or a competent high school?

Competent at what? Do you have evidence that private schools consistently produce more "competent" graduates?

Carol

public education wage slave

Public Schools Fraud

Teachers and principals erased and corrected mistakes on students' answer sheets.

Area superintendents silenced whistle-blowers and rewarded subordinates who met academic goals by any means possible.

Superintendent Beverly Hall and her top aides ignored, buried, destroyed or altered complaints about misconduct, claimed ignorance of wrongdoing and accused naysayers of failing to believe in poor children's ability to learn.

For years — as long as a decade — this was how the Atlanta school district produced gains on state curriculum tests. The scores soared so dramatically they brought national acclaim to Hall and the district, according to an investigative report released Tuesday by Gov. Nathan Deal.

[caroljane]

Is that a public high school or a competent high school?

Competent at what? Do you have evidence that private schools consistently produce more "competent" graduates?

Carol

public education wage slave

Public Schools Fraud

Teachers and principals erased and corrected mistakes on students' answer sheets.

Area superintendents silenced whistle-blowers and rewarded subordinates who met academic goals by any means possible.

Superintendent Beverly Hall and her top aides ignored, buried, destroyed or altered complaints about misconduct, claimed ignorance of wrongdoing and accused naysayers of failing to believe in poor children's ability to learn.

For years — as long as a decade — this was how the Atlanta school district produced gains on state curriculum tests. The scores soared so dramatically they brought national acclaim to Hall and the district, according to an investigative report released Tuesday by Gov. Nathan Deal.

to me, Atlanta is not the public anything. It's Atlanta.

[Brant Gaede]

Also, you should be aware that OL is not a "rigid," tow the Objectivist line....

Adam

Adam, dear friend, I can't take this one anymore, it is not just you but many others and obviously a common encroachment on common English spelling, and everyone knows English spelling is crazy anyway, but even so --

It's "toe" the line, not tow it.

Sorry!

Carol

ouch you are quite correct!

"Toe the Line," NOT "Tow the Line"

by Tina Blue

August 14, 2003

I saw it again today, this time in a comment on an article on a political website. It referred to reporters who mindlessly "tow the administration's line."

Um, that should be "toe the line."

A lot of people who don't know the origin of the phrase picture someone pulling a rope, cord, or some other "line"--"tow the line"--as a way of working for whomever the "line" belongs to. Thus, if the administration has a "line"--i.e., a "party line"--then those who side with the administration help to pull it ("tow" it) along.

Wrong.

The phrase "toe the line" is equivalent to "toe the mark," both of which mean to conform to a rule or a standard. The Oxford Dictionary of Word Histories (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 2002; ed. by Glynnis Chantrell) says, "The idiom toe the line from an athletics analogy originated in the early 19th century" (514).

The specific sport referred to is foot-racing, where the competitors must keep their feet behind a "line" or on a "mark" at the start of the race--as in "On your mark, get set, go!"

So one who "toes the line" is one who does not allow his foot to stray over the line. In other words, one who does not stray beyond a rigidly defined boundary.

Snap. I just posted this not especially about spelling, but because here the meaning of the metaphor is changed,: "toe the line" is "keep your nose clean"; Tow the line is, "Tote dat bale."

You can "tow" a line. Put it over there, in the corner.

--Brant

[equality72521]

First addressing schools.

I will try to find the article as it has been a few months since I read it but home school students turn out the best scores when rated against Public and Private school students. There are of course exceptions to this rule as I have a close friend of mine who when I met him (he was 17 at the time) could not read a childs book. He has sense corrected this and up until a little while ago was a functional illiterate.

I personally am a product of the public education system of which I can personally say that the best thing the pubic education system ever did for me was not educate me. I learned absolutely nothing I know from pubic schools, not how to read, how to write, or how to do math. I was written off at an early age because of my dyslexia and played hell in second and third grade being placed in "Learning Disabled" classes, or as me and some of the smarter students jokingly called it in 3rd grade the "retard classes". In truth I accredit my intelligence and knowledge to a man who was my "regular classes" teacher, he told me point blank one day that I would "never(emphasis) be as smart as everyone else." Though adults thought I was a placid child who spoke well for a child (I later found out this meant please and thank you.) I was quite rebellious. If I was told I could not do something and I thought the reason behind me not being able to do something was stupid I would do it anyway and usually in such a way as I was never caught. That statement however boiled my blood like no other had. Because of "Mr. C" I made it my personal mission in life to be smarter than everyone else. While I do not consider myself the smarts person in the world (nor would I want to be) that challenge drove me to heights of intelligence I am not sure I would have been motivated to reach.

The public education system failed me so miserably that I nearly failed High School, I absolutely refused to do homework because I was far ahead of the class. I would not read books which were assigned because I had read them two or three years in advance. I got A's on all my tests despite my dyslexia. But in one prime example as to how outrageous the public education system is, I failed biology because homework was 70% of the grade. I got A's on all my tests including the final and I still failed because I did not do the homework. So even though I proved that I knew the material I still failed because I did not do busy work. The only reason why I did not fail High School was because my Senior year I took 22 classes, it was the best year of school for me and I remember it quite fondly. I took regular classes in whatever subject I wanted, and then I did the rest as Independent study classes. It was great, I did only what I wanted to do. Rather than spending hours listening to teachers drone on about stuff I learned already, I was able to walk into the independent study's room, take a few tests, and I was done. I spent most of that year fixing teachers computers, networking new computers, reading whatever i wanted to read while my fellow classmates got stuck reading crap.

www.schoolsucks.com I am a huge advocate of this podcast, I don't always agree with his approach to the way children should learn, however he gets all of his facts about the "Modern" education system right.

Now...

As to is it moral to become a pirate.

That depends.

Instead of becoming a pirate lets say you wanted to become a warlord in some third world country like... oh I dont know lets say mexico. And lets say that you were to be an objectivist war lord, according to principles of objectivism this would be perfectly acceptable granted certain things. One of these certain things would be the end goal of your new private kingdom would be liberty. This does not mean that from the moment you take over it would be moral to say "So long as you do not initiate force against another it is legal." the main reason for this is that you would create a state of total anarchy and achieve exactly the opposite of liberty. Instead it would be legitimate to say "Alright I am going to higher public officials to carry out certain tasks, however if they accept bribes or are generally corrupt then I will kill them.". it would also be legitimate to say "My army will exterminate all drug cartel's who violate the non-aggression principle." Because Mexico is a slave state these things are legitimate, i dont think they are practical but they are legitimate.

As to piracy it is legitimate to pirate good's or money which is sent by one government to another government as "charity". I am however reminded of an old saying "Just because you can jump off a bridge doesn't mean you should."

I will also remind you that though he denounces Robin Hood Ragnar is operating off of the true Robin Hood principle, namely that of stealing form the thief to return the property to its rightful owner.

[Brant Gaede]

As to is it moral to become a pirate.

That depends.

Instead of becoming a pirate lets say you wanted to become a warlord in some third world country like... oh I dont know lets say mexico. And lets say that you were to be an objectivist war lord, according to principles of objectivism this would be perfectly acceptable granted certain things. One of these certain things would be the end goal of your new private kingdom would be liberty. This does not mean that from the moment you take over it would be moral to say "So long as you do not initiate force against another it is legal." the main reason for this is that you would create a state of total anarchy and achieve exactly the opposite of liberty. Instead it would be legitimate to say "Alright I am going to higher public officials to carry out certain tasks, however if they accept bribes or are generally corrupt then I will kill them.". it would also be legitimate to say "My army will exterminate all drug cartel's who violate the non-aggression principle." Because Mexico is a slave state these things are legitimate, i dont think they are practical but they are legitimate.

As to piracy it is legitimate to pirate good's or money which is sent by one government to another government as "charity". I am however reminded of an old saying "Just because you can jump off a bridge doesn't mean you should."

I will also remind you that though he denounces Robin Hood Ragnar is operating off of the true Robin Hood principle, namely that of stealing form the thief to return the property to its rightful owner.

Objectivism can be used to justify anything. Simply provide a long, convoluted hash of a chain of reasoning.

--Brant

[Selene]

The public education system failed me so miserably that I nearly failed High School, I absolutely refused to do homework because I was far ahead of the class.

...he gets all of his facts about the "Modern" education system right.

On page 330 of the 35th Anniversary Edition of Atlas, paperback, Dagny has been interviewing scientists to attempt to recreate the motor from what she and Hank found at 20th Century Motors, and the following occurs:

The fourth, who was the youngest, had looked at her silently for a moment and the lines of his face had slithered from blankness into a suggestion of contempt. "You know, Miss Taggart, I don't think that such a motor should ever be made, even if somebody did learn how to make it. It would be so superior to anything we've got that it would be unfair to lesser scientists, because it would leave no field for their achievements and abilities. I don't think that the strong should have the right to wound the self esteem of the weak."

Now there is the overriding "standard" of the modern public education system. Everyone gets a trophy! We do not keep score in the baseball game! Everyone is a winner!

Adam

even then Ayn could see what altruism as a repressive intellectual cancer would produce - the death of the public educational system

[CSpeciale]

I think the fact that the teachers in my high school go easy on us should NOT be included in the generalizing of public schools. I think the teachers in my public high school go easy on us because they are teaching under the board of education system of North Carolina--aka, the most ignorant state in the nation. x) Ever looked at how many scholarships are handed out to students every year in each state? North Carolina gives ten times more than any other state. A lot of kids around here don't even LIKE to exert energy, nor do they like to THINK to solve a problem, and it's because our teachers have always done it for them.

[equality72521]

Objectivism can be used to justify anything. Simply provide a long, convoluted hash of a chain of reasoning.

--Brant

Now that quite a stupid statement. For example objectivism cannot justify murder. There is also a great deal of other things which is impossible to Objectivists because of the Objectivist Prime Directive.

[Selene]

Objectivism can be used to justify anything. Simply provide a long, convoluted hash of a chain of reasoning.

--Brant

Now that quite a stupid statement. For example objectivism cannot justify murder. There is also a great deal of other things which is impossible to Objectivists because of the Objectivist Prime Directive.

Oh no!

Now we are going to get the Dagny shooting the guard debate again! Maybe even the tunnel scene and whether they deserved to die...not quite murder?

[equality72521]

I think the fact that the teachers in my high school go easy on us should NOT be included in the generalizing of public schools. I think the teachers in my public high school go easy on us because they are teaching under the board of education system of North Carolina--aka, the most ignorant state in the nation. x) Ever looked at how many scholarships are handed out to students every year in each state? North Carolina gives ten times more than any other state. A lot of kids around here don't even LIKE to exert energy, nor do they like to THINK to solve a problem, and it's because our teachers have always done it for them.

I strongly suggest that you read the NEA manifesto. Also again I recommend the school sucks podcast. The role of the Public education system is NOT to educate, it is to create cogs in a machine.

[BaalChatzaf]

I strongly suggest that you read the NEA manifesto. Also again I recommend the school sucks podcast. The role of the Public education system is NOT to educate, it is to create cogs in a machine.

Just as Horace Mann and his statist buddies envisioned. There purpose of school is to turn out obedient servants of the state who can read the what the state decrees. Being original and free in spirit was never part of the vision.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Objectivism can be used to justify anything. Simply provide a long, convoluted hash of a chain of reasoning.

--Brant

Now that quite a stupid statement. For example objectivism cannot justify murder. There is also a great deal of other things which is impossible to Objectivists because of the Objectivist Prime Directive.

No, no, no. I said "Objectivism can be used ...." You are saying Objectivism is an active agent unto itself that can do X if it's not contradictory, such as justify murder. And I am talking about rationalizations called Objectivist. You are making the same mistake Rand did, imputing power to the philosophy. Objectivism has no power. People have power.

--Brant

[Selene]

Angela,

Do you believe the ethical evolvement towards empathy had everything to do with the relaxing of certain stupid 'mores' and prejudices?

Tony,

I think it runs deeper than that. Take the abolition of slavery for example. Slavery is more than "stupid mores and silly prejudices" - it is a merciless exploitation of human beings by their fellow men.

You do know that they can easily be dismissed by rational morality, don't you?

If it is only about 'stupid mores and prejudices', rational arguments against them are justified, no question. Rationality covers lot of grund in ethics, no question.

But when it comes to atrocities, refuting them on rational grounds only is not enough.

But you contradict yourself. Somewhere else you stated that the world is in a mess; here, that empathy will bring us out of it.

There is no contradiction. Reaching a future stage in ethical development is a process which takes a lot of time. One has to think in a large time frame here.

But imo the evolvement toward more empathy cannot be stopped. The signs are everywhere.

For example, more and more dicatorships are beginning to crumble because people protest against those power-hungy cliques robbing them of their freedom.

Have you not considered that you have the cause and effect reversed?

There are no indicators that empathy got the world into a mess. It is the lack of empathy which lies at the root of atrocities committed against human beings (and animals, bullfights are an example).

Instead of leaving this otherwise fine instinct to each person's volition, it has been forced on the world, by guilt where necessary.

One cannot enforce empathy.

An orgy of empathy (real, or faked) has got us in the mess.

You don't believe me? Visit South Africa, and see first-hand the progression of politically correct 'empathy', to 'human rights', to widespread 'entitlement', and to savagery. (Xenophobic killings, as one example.)

Xenophobic killings indicate that those who commit them have not yet reached a stage where they feel empathy for those not belonging to their group, their "tribe", etc. This is not surprising - for these countries have not historically gone through any Age of Enlightenment.

And after political oppression through dictatorships/authoritarian regimes has ceased, those old structures are still there.

Please understand, it is one thing to live in a wealthy European country with mixed economy, the checks and balances of State contra a powerful industry, a solid work ethic, with stoical, self-disciplined and reasonably self-responsible citizens ... and preach empathy. It probably makes one feel ever so moral.

I don't live in a cocoon, Tony. I'm confronted with these isues in my work all the time. For many of my pupils come from war zones or families who had to flee from their countries because they were persecuted.

It was actually the confrontation with persons from such different cultural, social and religious backgrounds which got me so interested in ethics: for I simply had to find a 'common denominator' as a basis for my professional ethics as a teacher of the young. That's why I know how well the Golden Rule works: because I use it all the time. I also know from experience that it is possible to develop the human capacity to feel empathy from a tender and delicate plant to a fuller bloom (instead of brutally crushing it as it is done in societies where e. g. 'hatred of the enemy' is hammered into the susceptible souls of children).

I'm far from seeing the world through rose-colored glasses, but then I never lose hope, and small steps are still steps toward a goal.

I'll address your comments about the disaster in Greece in a separate post.

Angela, Tony, other posters:

What say you about this law suit?

A former Webster University student who was studying to be a family counselor says in a lawsuit that he was dismissed from a master's degree program after it was determined that he lacked empathy. The suit, which claims up to $1 million in losses and seeks at least $2 million in punitive damages, alleges the school dismissed him quickly rather than help him improve his empathy to complete the field work required for graduating.

The lawsuit was filed in St. Louis County Circuit Court last week.

Webster University declined to comment.

The student, David Schwartz, 44, of University City, had received all A's and only one C in his course work, according to a school transcript. But he was dismissed from the program on March 14 after he received a "no credit" for failing to successfully complete the practicum, in which he was to apply his class work to a real-world counseling setting.

Schwartz alleges in his lawsuit that he was deemed a poor performer after he wrote an anonymous letter to the dean criticizing a professor's teaching methods and noting the romantic relationship between that professor and an administrator.

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_1882fe71-21a2-5516-8bc2-0ddd8cc9cdba.html#ixzz1WS5pADhD

[anthony]

Adam,

Whatever the true facts - that it looks like this was a vengeful act employing "lack of empathy" as justification - the fact remains that someone can be dismissed on the grounds of lack of empathy.

That is disturbing.

Let's say one is aloof, reserved, cool or abrasive, can one be adjudged deficient in empathy? More importantly, can action (force) be taken against one?

For one's subjectively perceived incapability to "project one's personality into (and so fully comprehend) the object of contemplation."?

When morality becomes irrational, anything goes.

I had the feeling the "empathy police" were not far away...

Tony

Edited August 29, 2011 by whYNOT

[Xray]

Angela, Tony, other posters:

What say you about this law suit?

A former Webster University student who was studying to be a family counselor says in a lawsuit that he was dismissed from a master's degree program after it was determined that he lacked empathy. The suit, which claims up to $1 million in losses and seeks at least $2 million in punitive damages, alleges the school dismissed him quickly rather than help him improve his empathy to complete the field work required for graduating.

The lawsuit was filed in St. Louis County Circuit Court last week.

Webster University declined to comment.

The student, David Schwartz, 44, of University City, had received all A's and only one C in his course work, according to a school transcript. But he was dismissed from the program on March 14 after he received a "no credit" for failing to successfully complete the practicum, in which he was to apply his class work to a real-world counseling setting.

Schwartz alleges in his lawsuit that he was deemed a poor performer after he wrote an anonymous letter to the dean criticizing a professor's teaching methods and noting the romantic relationship between that professor and an administrator.

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_1882fe71-21a2-5516-8bc2-0ddd8cc9cdba.html#ixzz1WS5pADhD

Writing such a letter shows cowardice and a lack of rationality.

But imo the university's using "lack of empathy" as a lame argument is a clear case of trying to camouflage the real issue: the university's outrage about him having written the anonymous letter.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Xray