Osama bin Laden Killed

[Selene]

Folks:

It was revealed today that the raid came real close to an early failure and this was a one shot deal because no one trusted the Paki's which is obvious to anyone who understands this region here .

"WASHINGTON – Those who planned the secret mission to get Osama bin Laden in Pakistan knew it was a one-shot deal, and it nearly went terribly wrong.

The U.S. deliberately hid the operation from Pakistan, and predicted that national outrage over the breach of Pakistani sovereignty would make it impossible to try again if the raid on bin Laden's suspected redoubt came up dry."

[Brant Gaede]

Folks:

It was revealed today that the raid came real close to an early failure and this was a one shot deal because no one trusted the Paki's which is obvious to anyone who understands this region here .

"WASHINGTON – Those who planned the secret mission to get Osama bin Laden in Pakistan knew it was a one-shot deal, and it nearly went terribly wrong.

The U.S. deliberately hid the operation from Pakistan, and predicted that national outrage over the breach of Pakistani sovereignty would make it impossible to try again if the raid on bin Laden's suspected redoubt came up dry."

The backup helicopters were the key. The story reads real.

--Brant

[Richard Wiig]

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews..." -- Qur'an 5:82

The verse states:

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not (Qur'an 5:82)

First note how it states that Jews and Idolators are two different groups, hence the earlier made assertion that they were idolators was incorrect.

Not sure what earlier made assertion you're refering to there, but that a distinction is made means little.

Nevertheless, let us address the verse as a whole. This statement was not untrue for its time, the Pagan Arabs and the Jews of the region were in fact the most hostile people towards Islam there. Islam upset the social order of both groups.. The Pagans of Quraish and the Jews of Yathrib (Medina) benefited greatly off of the unjust practices of the region. Islam came and changed the social order which benefited them so they disliked Islam.

A huge number of Muslims seem to think it's not untrue today. Simply observe the forces, and the rhetoric of those forces, that are lining up against Israel. The enmity towards Israel grows with each passing year.

The Jews of Yathrib were amazing craftsmen and would make and sell the weapons and armor to be used in the wars between the Pagan tribes of Yathrib, they'd then give loans with huge interest rates to the Pagans of the Yathrib to be able to purchase those weapons.

Islam upset that social order because the Pagan tribes of Yathrib became Muslim and there was no more wars between them.

That is not to say that the Jews in general are the most hateful of Islam or that all Jews are damned to Hellfire. Nothing could be further from the truth, the Qur'an even states in the same chapter:

Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (Qur'an 5:69)

But the jews and christians obviously do not "doeth right". They are not on the straight path.

"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." Qur'an 5:51

Hmmm.. This comes from a root word which can either mean protector or friend.

The context is not in friendship, as the verse previously mentioned the Christians of that time as being nearest in affection to the Muslims.. That definitely describes friendship.

It doesn't definitely describe friendship at all. Nearest in affection does not tell us how near.

What this is referring to is specifically protection.. Muslims should not allow their security or safety to be in the hands of non Muslims and rely solely on them for protection. It encourages Muslims to protect themselves as the Muslims were always persecuted by the Pagans after other Pagans that had some treaty with the Muslims that included the protection of those Muslims had either broken the treaty or the treaty became invalid due to the passing of the tribal leader that took them under his protection..

Whether it is taken as protector or as friend it is still divisive. Under American law and principles the government protects the individual rights of all regardless of race, colour or creed, but this verse, whether taken to mean protector or friend, sets muslims up in exclusivity apart from non-muslims.

I wouldn't expect Jews to only rely on the protection of non Jews because history shows that this is not a sufficient way to protect ones' self. Therefore I don't think that Muslims, nor any group should have to rely on different groups to protect them.

It isn't telling you to put your eggs into more than one basket. It's telling you to create a divide.

[Richard Wiig]

We are all human beings, of that there is little doubt (well, except for some) but each of us follows a philosophy of one kind or another. Islam imparts a philosophy which shapes the person, as does Objectivism. Islam teaches that an adherents first loyalty should be to the Ummah, which transcends geographical and political boundaries. Islam has its own politics, a politics that is contrary to the principles of the United States. It is a valid question, especially seeing as I saw LM's post as being nothing but more of his moral equivalence.

I'm not sure where you got this idea.. But Islam doesn't teach that an adherents first loyalty should be to the Ummah at all.. Islam teaches us that we're supposed to have a loyalty to God

Specifically to Gods law, which in practice means to the Ummah as one under Gods law.

and that the measure of our loyalties and the sides we choose on particular issues should be justice and not our connection to our family, our tribe nor fellow Muslims if those Muslims are in the wrong..

Justice is the measure of our loyalties.. Not whether someone is Muslim or not..

Yes. Justice is divinely given, so justice is adherence to the Law of God.

[BaalChatzaf]

Yes. Justice is divinely given, so justice is adherence to the Law of God.

Does that include decapitating Jews, as happened to Daniel Perle?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Barbara Branden]

I have no objection to people celebrating bin Laden's death -- although some of the college kids, too young to have witnessed the horror of 9/11 as

it was happening, made me feel uncomfortably as if pretty cheerleaders and a marching band soon would appear -- but as I listened to the news last night and today, I have not felt like celebrating. i am glad that bin Laden is dead; he was a monster who was polluting the earth with his presence. And I have only admiration for the courage and consummate efficiency of the Navy Seals who did the job.

But I have been feeling enormous sadness -- not because a cockroach has been stamped on and destroyed, but because it had ever lived, because such evil had breathed the air I breathe and felt the warmth of the same sun. I kept remembering 9/11, the end of whatever innocence Americans had still possessed. I kept remembering, especially, what has remained with me ever since as the scene that captures the essence of that terrible day: individuals and couples holding hands, leaping from their windows in the burning towers.

The only real justice the 3,000 victims of 9/11 could receive would be to have their lives restored to them. And that no one can give them.

Barbara

This pretty well sums up my feelings, but there are different kinds of innocence. I think the innocence you are talking about here is the innocence fostered and made possible by both ignorance and a giant country buffered by the two major oceans. Aside from the lives lost on 9/11 and consequent to that, that ignorance is purblind superficiality by a populace that refuses to see and understand the world they are living in absent the needed critical thinking and education. How many Americans can make a coherent statement about Marines killing Filipinos over a hundred years ago in a pacification campaign that washed over high multiples of 10,000 murdered people? The expansionist imperialistic impulse that has informed Americans and America since the beginning pushed through to the Pacific Ocean and kept on going to these very days. It is not the imperialism of ancient Rome or the British Empire or European colonialism, it is the imperialism of power and self-justifying pat-ourselves-on-the-back-for-we-are-the-good-guys making-the-world-a-better-place. The push-back on American power has just begun as the interior weakens. That's all it ever has been--power relationships. Power pushes against power until it has no power to push further, then countervailing power creates temporary stasis between countries or regions and the readjustments begin.

--Brant

it's about freedom when we talk about freedom and individual rights knowing what we are talking about

Brant, by American innocence, I was referring to a phenomenon I became aware of not many years after I moved here from Canada. I was referring to the fact that Americans, for the most part, did not fully believe in the existence of evil. Unlike Europeans, they had never been enslaved, starved, or terrorized by it, and it seemed to stand in their minds as something not quite real. I found this phenomenon -- which at that time I shared -- both touching, because it told me that Americans themselves tended to be invincibly decent -- and dangerous, because not to recognize the reality of evil is to be helpless to combat it. At most, Americans seemed to believe that evil existed somewhere overseas-- in Nazi Germany or Russia -- but not in America, not in people they knew and dealt with and could understand. And certainly not in the government brought into existence by the wisdom and moral integrity of our Founding Fathers.

Over the years, I saw American innocence slowly eroding. For myself, this erosion began as I started reading about the Holocaust, which I had been too young to understand during World War II, and about the Americans who had helped finance Hitler. Particularly, Roosevelt's refusal to grant asylum to the passengers of the St.Louis, the German ship of over 900 Jews fleeing from the Third Reich, had made me understand that good and evil were engaged in a mortal combat and that I had to take sides, that "silence in the face of evil is itself evil." For Americans, I believe the events of 9/11 struck a final blow to the remnants of their innocence. I wish the world were such that this hadn't been necessary. But, of course. . .

All this may seem strange coming from someone who is constantly telling Objectivists to be slow in their condemnations, and to be very certain of their ground before ascribing evil intentions to those who disagree with them. But this is not a contradiction. There is nothing worse one can say about a human being than that he is evil; such a damnation should be reserved for the Hitlers and bin Ladens of the world and their fellow travelers - not for our neighbor who believes he should be his brother's keeper.

Barbara

[BaalChatzaf]

I have been doing some thinking about this. It is a sad thing that someone can be so evil that only his death can make his evil deeds Paid. If humans were bad to the bone, there would be no need to mark such a death. If humans were good and just there would be no such deaths. But we are a strange a fragile lot, we are. What we are or become is largely what we bring about by our own acts and choices. Very little is preordained by external events.

I think it is a bad idea to react to UBL's death with glee. He had to die, that is clear, but the necessity of his death is hardly a reason to jump for joy. To do would say we were glad he was evil so we could justify killing him. I would had preferred it, if bin Laden had gone into the construction business and made his fortune building mosques, rather than arranging for large commercial flights to fly into tall buildings that other people built. But that is not how it worked out. And that is sad.

I think I might be going soft in my dotage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[anthony]

I would had preferred it, if bin Laden had gone into the construction business and made his fortune building mosques, rather than arranging for large commercial flights to fly into tall buildings that other people built. But that is not how it worked out. And that is sad.

I think I might be going soft in my dotage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Not at all, Bob.

Give yourself some credit for your rational benevolence.

(Whether it's merited or not, in ObL's case.)

Tony

[Richard Wiig]

I think it is a bad idea to react to UBL's death with glee. He had to die, that is clear, but the necessity of his death is hardly a reason to jump for joy.

People jump for joy at the achievement, not at the necessity of his death. It's also satisfying to see him get his come-uppance, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Richard Wiig]

Yes. Justice is divinely given, so justice is adherence to the Law of God.

Does that include decapitating Jews, as happened to Daniel Perle?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes, I think it includes decapitating jews, or any enemy of Islam.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I think I might be going soft in my dotage.

Bob,

This is the big heart I saw a few years ago when others kept saying you were a blood-thirsty monster. And I have seen it over and over.

Be careful, though. Expressing the big heart stuff so clearly is addicting and you run the risk of completely destroying your reputation.

Michael

[anthony]

I think I might be going soft in my dotage.

Bob,

This is the big heart I saw a few years ago when others kept saying you were a blood-thirsty monster. And I have seen it over and over.

Be careful, though. Expressing the big heart stuff so clearly is addicting and you run the risk of completely destroying your reputation.

Michael

Big-hearted, or rational value of life - they may start differently, but they meet in the same place.

Don't worry about Bob's rep; I fancy he's already working on his next zinger!

[BaalChatzaf]

I think I might be going soft in my dotage.

Bob,

This is the big heart I saw a few years ago when others kept saying you were a blood-thirsty monster. And I have seen it over and over.

Be careful, though. Expressing the big heart stuff so clearly is addicting and you run the risk of completely destroying your reputation.

Michael

Big-hearted, or rational value of life - they may start differently, but they meet in the same place.

Don't worry about Bob's rep; I fancy he's already working on his next zinger!

See my latest posting.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

I think I might be going soft in my dotage.

Bob,

This is the big heart I saw a few years ago when others kept saying you were a blood-thirsty monster. And I have seen it over and over.

Be careful, though. Expressing the big heart stuff so clearly is addicting and you run the risk of completely destroying your reputation.

Michael

Monster is as monster does.

Everything else is no worse than blather.

--Brant

[william.scherk]

I listen to the podcasts of The Skeptic's Guide To The Universe. One of their features is Skeptical Quote of the Week.

"Homeopathy is the idea that we just cured the world of terrorism by dumping Osama's corpse in the ocean." - Sean Mcfly

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

See my latest posting.

Bob,

LOL...

I haven't even seen it yet, but I imagine you are trying to do damage control.

Michael

[Ed Hudgins]

As you all know, Bin Laden had a porn collection in his hideout. Perhaps you don't know the titled of the DVDs:

"Debbie Does Abbottabad"

"Bare Ankles 4"

"One Camel, Two Humps"

"Deep Goat"

[Guyau]

.

Remarks by the President on the Middle East and North Africa

Three Angles

Gergen

I say that any American interests in conflict with the American value of individual rights are not genuine interests.

Middle East Quartet

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Birth of Israel

Edited May 20, 2011 by Stephen Boydstun

[Brant Gaede]

.

Remarks by the President on the Middle East and North Africa

Oh, I mis-read this. I thought it was "Remarks by the President of the Middle East and North Africa" hoping for a satire.

--Brant

[Ed Hudgins]

.

Remarks by the President on the Middle East and North Africa

Oh, I mis-read this. I thought it was "Remarks by the President of the Middle East and North Africa" hoping for a satire.

--Brant

Obama's a joke so you're not too far off!

[9thdoctor]

As you all know, Bin Laden had a porn collection in his hideout. Perhaps you don't know the titled of the DVDs:

"Debbie Does Abbottabad"

"Bare Ankles 4"

"One Camel, Two Humps"

"Deep Goat"

I suggest switching the first to "Debbie does Damascus".

How about "Lawrence of a Labia"?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

More terror-Laden porn.

Osama Been Lickin'

Michael

[william.scherk]

American policy for the Middle East and North Africa was promulgated by the US President today. Does this matter? Did it say anything new? Did he sell Israel down the river? Will the US deal with "the flop in Egypt" and other "terrorist-organized and carefully-coordinated uprisings in the Arab World"?

I guess me and Boydstun will be the first to report back on our impressions of the policy statement by the prez.

Edited May 20, 2011 by william.scherk

[9thdoctor]

Does this matter? Did it say anything new? Did he sell Israel down the river?

Probably not. Not really. Who cares what he said, what can he do? Obama called for the 1967 borders, Netanyahu says no. It's all hot air.

Now don't tell me you disapprove of the bin Laden porn titles! I caught just a whiff of schoolmarm a minute ago.

[Rich Engle]

We're all so cute when we try to be funny . . .