War Brutality (Warning Disturbing photographs)

[J4m3sLynn]

Hello, I know you are all aware of the controversy with the Koran book burning and the presumed Muslim outrage from that. I have heard that that is not the actual reason for the current outrage in Afghanistan, the one that resulted in the deaths of 20+/- people. I have recently been made aware of this article from Rolling Stone. According to the article, the Pentagon has been trying to suppress these photographs (rumored to number into the thousands), but it is now surfacing. Here is the Rolling Stone article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/photos/the-kill-team-photos-20110327

Here is the full story by Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

and here is a reaction piece by an Afghani civilian:

http://afghancentral.blogspot.com/2011/03/kill-teams-in-afghanistan-truth.html

If these stories are false I apologize, but I currently have no reason to doubt their validity. If this is old news I apologize for the redundancy. Hopefully this adds some much needed perspective into these people's lives.

Thank you for your time, and good premises.

-Ethan

[BaalChatzaf]

Amazing! Here is a war and people are being killed and their sh*t busted up.

I am shocked, shocked!

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Mike11]

Hey SDC, nice to see you on a decent forum now. I assume that, following your ban from OO.net, you will make this your home.

[J4m3sLynn]

Hey SDC, nice to see you on a decent forum now. I assume that, following your ban from OO.net, you will make this your home.

You've perked my curiosity: how did you know who I was?

And who are you, what was your username on OO.net?

And yes, I've found the individuals on this site to be far more "objective" than the individuals on OO.net. And no I don't think I'm banned from OO.net, just held in contempt by the majority of the members there. Apparently I'm far too individualistic for the philosophy of individualism. ;)

Edited April 5, 2011 by J4m3sLynn

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ethan (J4m3sLynn),

Welcome to OL.

I think you just made Bob's day. (He's BaalChatzaf.)

He's not really a sadist, just aspie. So he talks like a sadist at times. He also likes to gross people out, too, but that's just his playful side.

(OK, I'm going to stop picking on Bob... )

As to the photos, this is a tragedy. I don't know what good is to be gained from looking at them unless a person is totally clueless about the horrors of war.

Propagandists (all sides) like to use things like this to get attention when they sling blame around.

Michael

[J4m3sLynn]

Ethan (J4m3sLynn),

Welcome to OL.

I think you just made Bob's day. (He's BaalChatzaf.)

He's not really a sadist, just aspie. So he talks like a sadist at times. He also likes to gross people out, too, but that's just his playful side.

(OK, I'm going to stop picking on Bob... )

As to the photos, this is a tragedy. I don't know what good is to be gained from looking at them unless a person is totally clueless about the horrors of war.

Propagandists (all sides) like to use things like this to get attention when they sling blame around.

Michael

Thank you for the reply, I enjoy the presence of disagreement with Rand (and especially that scum, that parasite, that waste of resources Peikoff, I loathe him passionately) on this site, in contrast with OO.net, who hold disagreement with either figure or anyone in the ARI's payroll as blasphemy in the highest degree. As a Skinnerian myself, I of course disagree with Rand on some issues, but admire her as a philosopher and artist, and am proud to list her as one of my most profound and important influences.

Yes, this most certainly is a tragedy. I would argue that a person should most certainly need to see these things, as they must be informed on the gravity of the situation: they must be informed about what is actually happening in Afghanistan. This is marginally related to war, it is more relevant to the fact that:

1. Our army is enabling and empowering psychopaths to murder innocent civilians.

2. Our government attempts to cover up these egregious crimes against humanity.

3. A great deal of the Afghani resentment against us is justified.

I hope that this situation causes those who do not sympathize with the Afghani apprehension of us to begin to do so, I hope that this generates an outcry, a protest that will force our government to be more cautious with its policy of admittance into their army, and I hope that this causes people to realize that their government (especially the Pentagon) lies to them. What's really frightening to me is that the mainstream media (particularly MSNBC) is reporting on the outrage in Afghanistan incorrectly, they are claiming that it's in response to the "Burn a Koran day" by that moronic pastor in the deep south, which occurred weeks ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV4Sh84Q34M

The conspiracy theorists would claim that the mainstream media is assisting the Pentagon in covering up this story by misinforming the public. As much as I hope that isn't true, I don't know why the mainstream media would misinterpret this story so obviously, so recklessly.

I hope I'm incorrect about this story.

Also, the point of war should be to remove the threat to our lives, and minimize the destruction of innocent humans to a minimum. Any unnecessary destruction will only result in:

1. The needless loss of human life (a concern for our species)

2. Our own status in the world to be damaged (a selfish concern)

This should not be an acceptable "horror of war". Soldiers slaughtering innocent civilians for sport and leisure is not a "horror of war", it is an atrocity, an assault upon our species, and selfishly speaking, an assault on our reputation in the rest of the world.

(Now I think you can see why OO.net held me in such contempt. )

Edited April 5, 2011 by J4m3sLynn

[Mike11]

SDC, as for OO.net, when the members lose their erections they will likely call you out as some sort of mooslime sympathizer. I spoke to you a few times in chat, possibly under the handle Greyhawk.

As for the photos, I hope the soldiers are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I do not consider our involvement as an act of aggression but clearly these soldiers' behavior says something about american culture this last decade.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ethan,

MSNBC is incorrectly reporting something?

I have to echo Bob:

I am shocked, shocked!

Michael

[J4m3sLynn]

SDC, as for OO.net, when the members lose their erections they will likely call you out as some sort of mooslime sympathizer. I spoke to you a few times in chat, possibly under the handle Greyhawk.

As for the photos, I hope the soldiers are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I do not consider our involvement as an act of aggression but clearly these soldiers' behavior says something about american culture this last decade.

Indeed, anyone who "questions the party line" on OO.net is immediately discriminated against. Objectivity is not acceptable among FO.net (fundamentalistonline.net). I remember Dwayne losing his collective shit over my refutation of Rand's lousy argument against Chess, among other things. The way they adhere to every word that oozes from the septic tank that Peikoff calls his mouth is repulsive. As a refugee from Christianity I know dogmatism when I see it. Glad to meet you Greyhawk. =)

I agree, I hope the soldiers, their superiors, the figures who are attempting to bury this matter, and all other related parties are prosecuted and punished appropriately. This event speaks to me on a number of issues:

1. The desperation of our military: how they are forced to dredge the seabed of our eroding society for the likes of the individuals who are responsible for these actions. This tells me that our military is indeed stretched far too thin.

2. There must be some problem with many military supervisors and whoever else is responsible for training these people, as this is not an isolated event.

3. These individuals are a product of their biology and environment, and their environment was, for the majority of their lives, American society. Where and how in society they acquired such revolting behaviors and disturbing tastes in past-times is nearly too unsettling to consider, although we must, for our nation's sake.

EDIT:

Ethan,

MSNBC is incorrectly reporting something?

I have to echo Bob:

I am shocked, shocked!

Michael

Heheh, I would have to agree. This is totally unexpected.

I think I'm going to enjoy this site.

Edited April 5, 2011 by J4m3sLynn

[Mike11]

1) Topic at hand

According to Al Jazeera, the soldiers were busted -

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/2011324135833378976.html

2) Dwaine

If I ever meet that demented little kiwi, I will inflict grievous bodily harm. I mean he was, truly, special.

Him and that little lapdog Kane

There are some decent people over there but the last few years they've become really outnumbered.

Oh, and Knast, that guy makes me want to go Hannibal Lector

[J4m3sLynn]

1) Topic at hand

According to Al Jazeera, the soldiers were busted -

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/2011324135833378976.html

2) Dwaine

If I ever meet that demented little kiwi, I will inflict grievous bodily harm. I mean he was, truly, special.

Him and that little lapdog Kane

There are some decent people over there but the last few years they've become really outnumbered.

Oh, and Knast, that guy makes me want to go Hannibal Lector

1. That's good news, but unfortunately, his superiors and the individuals at the Pentagon who tried to suppress this information, will not be punished, and I would argue that they are nearly as guilty as he is.

2. Ah Dwayne and Knast, such terrible events paired with such terrible people. Unfortunately the term "Randroid" is accurate, for some people. It's nothing against Objectivism, there are unsavory individuals who follow any movement: There are Marxists who claim that Stalin was a hero, Hitler loved Nietzsche, and Dwayne and Knast call themselves Objectivists. As I remember Michael Stuart Kelly saying in a previous thread, the Principle of Charity must be applied in order to acquire knowledge and wisdom from all philosophies. That is a very pragmatic approach, which is nothing to apologize for, as I am a (strange) sort of pragmatist. I'll have to elaborate on my own developing personal philosophy someday, but that's another conversation.

[caroljane]

1) Topic at hand

According to Al Jazeera, the soldiers were busted -

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/2011324135833378976.html

2) Dwaine

If I ever meet that demented little kiwi, I will inflict grievous bodily harm. I mean he was, truly, special.

Him and that little lapdog Kane

There are some decent people over there but the last few years they've become really outnumbered.

Oh, and Knast, that guy makes me want to go Hannibal Lector

I read Oonline because I have become fascinated by the creative writing of "Summer" over there. Her latest has just left me in awe. The moderators should stop hassling the debaters and get her entered in the Bulwer-Lytton contest.

[J4m3sLynn]

1) Topic at hand

According to Al Jazeera, the soldiers were busted -

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/2011324135833378976.html

2) Dwaine

If I ever meet that demented little kiwi, I will inflict grievous bodily harm. I mean he was, truly, special.

Him and that little lapdog Kane

There are some decent people over there but the last few years they've become really outnumbered.

Oh, and Knast, that guy makes me want to go Hannibal Lector

I read Oonline because I have become fascinated by the creative writing of "Summer" over there. Her latest has just left me in awe. The moderators should stop hassling the debaters and get her entered in the Bulwer-Lytton contest.

Yes, Summer is a brilliant individual, I know her personally. She, among with 2 other people that I can name, Ryan (troll, great guy), and Capitalist Swine (also named Ryan, educated, informed, intelligent) are some of the few redeeming factors of that website.

[Mike11]

Heh, I agree with that list. Except for one omission, NickS still hang around there?

[9thdoctor]

Hello, I know you are all aware of the controversy with the Koran book burning and the presumed Muslim outrage from that. I have heard that that is not the actual reason for the current outrage in Afghanistan, the one that resulted in the deaths of 20+/- people.

Welcome to OL. The article is riveting, and sickening. You believe the protests have to do with this article? And not Pastor Jones? I wonder how our MSM decides the reason for a protest, do they have translators reading the signs?

Hey SDC, nice to see you on a decent forum now. I assume that, following your ban from OO.net, you will make this your home.

I just checked OO and SDC has no posts. I thought I’d sniff out whatever got him banned.

I have become fascinated by the creative writing of "Summer" over there. Her latest has just left me in awe. The moderators should stop hassling the debaters and get her entered in the Bulwer-Lytton contest.

Bulwer-Lytton, isn’t that a put down? The contest isn't for "The pen is mightier than the sword", but for "It was a dark and stormy night". Anyway, she posted here for a while, I don’t recall any dustups, but she seems to have found her home over yonder.

[caroljane]

Hello, I know you are all aware of the controversy with the Koran book burning and the presumed Muslim outrage from that. I have heard that that is not the actual reason for the current outrage in Afghanistan, the one that resulted in the deaths of 20+/- people.

Welcome to OL. The article is riveting, and sickening. You believe the protests have to do with this article? And not Pastor Jones? I wonder how our MSM decides the reason for a protest, do they have translators reading the signs?

Hey SDC, nice to see you on a decent forum now. I assume that, following your ban from OO.net, you will make this your home.

I just checked OO and SDC has no posts. I thought I’d sniff out whatever got him banned.

I have become fascinated by the creative writing of "Summer" over there. Her latest has just left me in awe. The moderators should stop hassling the debaters and get her entered in the Bulwer-Lytton contest.

Bulwer-Lytton, isn’t that a put down? The contest isn't for "The pen is mightier than the sword", but for "It was a dark and stormy night". Anyway, she posted here for a while, I don’t recall any dustups, but she seems to have found her home over yonder.

It is? Yikes. I'm confused today. Most days, actually.Sorry.

[J4m3sLynn]

Joel:

Oh yeah that's right, NickS is a great guy, and as far as I know he's still there.

Hello, I know you are all aware of the controversy with the Koran book burning and the presumed Muslim outrage from that. I have heard that that is not the actual reason for the current outrage in Afghanistan, the one that resulted in the deaths of 20+/- people.

Welcome to OL. The article is riveting, and sickening. You believe the protests have to do with this article? And not Pastor Jones? I wonder how our MSM decides the reason for a protest, do they have translators reading the signs?

Hey SDC, nice to see you on a decent forum now. I assume that, following your ban from OO.net, you will make this your home.

I just checked OO and SDC has no posts. I thought I’d sniff out whatever got him banned.

I have become fascinated by the creative writing of "Summer" over there. Her latest has just left me in awe. The moderators should stop hassling the debaters and get her entered in the Bulwer-Lytton contest.

Bulwer-Lytton, isn’t that a put down? The contest isn't for "The pen is mightier than the sword", but for "It was a dark and stormy night". Anyway, she posted here for a while, I don’t recall any dustups, but she seems to have found her home over yonder.

Nice to meet you, and thanks for the welcome.

1. Excellent point. I do admit that point of mine was a slight appeal to a minor conspiracy theory, that the MSM is influenced by the Pentagon. Due to their ignoring of this story, and because the Pentagon was reportedly trying to bury it, it would be a little too easy to pair the two and generate implications of that pairing, namely that the Pentagon, as part of their suppression, caused the MSM to ignore it. I admit that that is conspiratorial, I have little-to-no evidence to back that up, and I will gladly concede this point if you press me. I just find it suspicious, that's all, however I do recognize that suspicion is not evidence of anything.

2. Joel was mistaken, I was not banned, (as far as I know), but I wouldn't be surprised if they considered it. I was temporarily "banned" (kicked repeatedly) from the chat server because of my disagreement with their prominent members. The dogmatists at FO.net do not take kindly to an opposing viewpoint. I was relatively inactive on the forum itself: I was mainly present on the chat server, and I have a very low repute there now because of my disagreement with them. They of course would word it differently (malicious, flawed premises, devious, and the rest of the common Peikoffian pseudo-Objectivist slurs). I was "temporarily banned" and am now hated on the chat server because of my, repeated, admittedly occasionally vehement, disagreement with them. I unfortunately have a thin patience for stupidity, and when they dogmatically defended Peikoff and Rand's indefensible arguments, I do admit that sometimes I became somewhat emotional. I did nothing more than disagree with them however, and my emotional reaction paled in comparison to theirs, as they (Dwayne and Knast) had far harsher words for me than I had for them. After their insults began to fly, I realized that further argument was pointless, and I simply resorted to responding with "I don't think of you, Knast, so why do you think of me?"

3. She posts prominently on facebook as well. I had quite the philosophical debate with her on facebook, but thankfully it ended with us remaining on good terms. Our debate was pointless from the beginning, as our differing epistemologies (mine being Skinnerian/Naturalist, hers being Objectivist) caused us to fundamentally differ on key issues (particularly free will: I reject it, but that's another discussion for another day), so debating the matter further would be pointless. Of all the ARI-minded Objectivists, she is the only one I consider worth debating, she truly is an incredible individual: I identify with, admire, and value her as a friend.

I hope that clears a few things up.

Edited April 5, 2011 by J4m3sLynn

[9thdoctor]

1. Excellent point. I do admit that point of mine was a slight appeal to a minor conspiracy theory, that the MSM is influenced by the Pentagon.

Your suggestion seems quite reasonable on it’s face. But don’t forget there’s a herd mentality in the MSM, so there doesn’t need to be a big conspiracy afoot for the reporting to be all wrong, everywhere.

I identify with, admire, and value her as a friend.

And she is pretty cute.

Uh-oh, she's only 17, jail-bait!

[caroljane]

1. Excellent point. I do admit that point of mine was a slight appeal to a minor conspiracy theory, that the MSM is influenced by the Pentagon.

Your suggestion seems quite reasonable on it’s face. But don’t forget there’s a herd mentality in the MSM, so there doesn’t need to be a big conspiracy afoot for the reporting to be all wrong, everywhere.

I identify with, admire, and value her as a friend.

And she is pretty cute.

Uh-oh, she's only 17, jail-bait!

Watch it 9th, you are now up against Dennis for the Best Gratuitous Interjection of Pulchritude Award, and you know how he hates to lose.

He hasn't been around lately though...

[Brant Gaede]

I'd caution against looking at these photographs. Be careful.

--Brant

[9thdoctor]

I'd caution against looking at these photographs. Be careful.

--Brant

I only read the article, you're warning led me to click the link to the photos. I only saw the first 3, and particularly the 3rd was beyond...I don't have the vocabulary resources for it. Folks, be warned, you don't want to see it.

[caroljane]

I'd caution against looking at these photographs. Be careful.

--Brant

I only read the article, you're warning led me to click the link to the photos. I only saw the first 3, and particularly the 3rd was beyond...I don't have the vocabulary resources for it. Folks, be warned, you don't want to see it.

Thank you guys, I was just going to click and now won't. Too many images I've already seen are still with me. Appreciate the warning.

[Brant Gaede]

I'd caution against looking at these photographs. Be careful.

--Brant

I only read the article, you're warning led me to click the link to the photos. I only saw the first 3, and particularly the 3rd was beyond...I don't have the vocabulary resources for it. Folks, be warned, you don't want to see it.

You didn't see the worst--the much worse. I've seen hundreds of dead bodies, dead from war wounds. I once observed a surgery in which an assisting doctor had to leave the surgical suite or lose his lunch or faint away down to the floor. It didn't bother me in the least. I didn't need to see those photos. In fact, I think Michael should edit them out or put up a stronger warning.

--Brant

[anthony]

I'd caution against looking at these photographs. Be careful.

--Brant

I only read the article, you're warning led me to click the link to the photos. I only saw the first 3, and particularly the 3rd was beyond...I don't have the vocabulary resources for it. Folks, be warned, you don't want to see it.

You didn't see the worst--the much worse. I've seen hundreds of dead bodies, dead from war wounds. I once observed a surgery in which an assisting doctor had to leave the surgical suite or lose his lunch or faint away down to the floor. It didn't bother me in the least. I didn't need to see those photos. In fact, I think Michael should edit them out or put up a stronger warning.

--Brant

As general editorial policy, the standard of publish or not publish, used to be based on "public's need to know." That was in my time on a daily paper, anyhow.

The "know" is in the facts - the most critical of which is that some sub-human substitutes for soldiers are posing, leering over their 'kills'.

I've also seen bloody, broken bodies, and in all honesty movies 'do it better'.

We are all mostly hardened to gory images via the screen. In this case it's simple to visualize (If you want to.)

There's nothing to look at folks, move along.

Mainly, I don't get the purpose of linking to the pictures - it seems gratuitous and inappropriate, and adds nothing to my knowledge of humanity and inhumanity.

Tony

[Brant Gaede]

To clarify, there were some photos following the first three that were much worse, not that I had personally seen worse. I never had the experience of seeing blown apart bodies and scattered body parts. (There was one exception of which I'll spare us.)

--Brant

Edited April 6, 2011 by Brant Gaede