Nerian

Oh right that went right over my head. Yes, I've dabbled. I have not gone completely through his pillars of self esteem. The first parts were 'quite good'. I have read his ideas about the dangers of objectivism which I found 'quite good'. hehe. Oh it made some sense to me, I could kind of see your meaning, but I was also a bit lost how it applies to me. Thank you for that clarification. Yes, of course. That fact highlights the absolute necessity of physical law. There can be no physical existence without physical order, when existence is order. Indeed. That's an order of law of an even a higher level. A universe which even allows for itself to be consciously perceived and appreciated. A universe for us to enjoy. This has direct implications in our own lives. Human happiness, purpose, productivity, prosperity, and love all exist according to an order of logical laws. If we can grow to understand those laws and to learn how act in harmony with them... ...all of goodness of life is already ours. Greg Beautiful.

Yeah. That's pretty blurry. David Friedman does well on answering such things, but it's kind of hard to put into rights. Of course, taking the drug isn't against anyone's rights, but getting into a car when you're out of it and crashing into you is. Same goes for owning a nuclear weapon. Merely owning it isn't hurting anyone, but there's so much potential for destruction that you can't possibly justify owning it.

Aren't you over-compartmentalizing, some? Pleasure from rationality, emotions from their cause? And disconnecting gaining knowledge and making money from all the rest. "Non-contradictory joy" which is happiness, means that no sacrifice takes place: of others' lives and minds to you, or yours to others; that your actions are in close keeping with your 'knowledge' of reality (which is, after all, your morality). Ultimately, that that joy in living is never at the cost of your mind-independence or your convictions, which in actuality it can't be. Because knowledge is imperfect at any given moment, it necessitates all the more that one executes it faithfully to its limits. As one simple f'rinstance, one 'knows' emotions implicitly. Grasping that fact obviates allowing actions that you know from experience or extrapolation will hurt you, as well as from consciously hurting others. That's crucial knowledge. Next, comes explicit knowledge of the "pleasure-pain mechanism". 'School learning' is only a part of it. There is as much to learn and take in...on your bus trips, if you never cease to be acutely conscious. One can take knowledge from pleasures, as well as find pleasure in knowledge. There can be early on a large gap between the awesome, high-flying principles of Objectivism and one's nitty-gritty daily existence. Sure, in time, thought and practice, those abstractions become real tangibles as you connect them to *reality-over-all*, and *reality-oneself*. (Making the concepts your own, as I see it). It is easier to understand and apply methods and standards to the externals, like politics and science (which is why these are discussed more frequently, I suppose) - less obvious and harder is it to include oneself in the big picture - without falling back on stereotypes or excessively on fictional characters in Rand. A bridge is essential for that gap. At the early stages - and after - one needs a writer and thinker who a. comprehends Objectivism intimately; b. introduces the human, psychological aspect to it all, while unswerving from reality and reason. Now who can that be? Let me think... I'm sincerely sorry, but I'm not following your main point. In what way am I compartmentalizing? Did I suggest that one shouldn't apply one's knowledge? Maybe I have not expressed my thoughts and troubles clearly. Also, who are you referring to in your last part? lol. I am supposed to know.

In a course by Peikoff, he stated that he did not even consider Eastern philosophy worth mentioning. Is this a correct assessment of all Eastern philosophy? Is there absolutely nothing good about it? Is it worth dabbling in to understand the East? How does this relate to the rise of the Eastern tiger economies and now China? Have they succeeded only to the extent they have embraced the right kinds of Western ideas out of practicality? And if they have no basis other than practicality how stable does that make them long term?

Peter, Sure, if you take away the timeline and the rest of it. But let's go with your doubt. When you do something that feels good and there is no rational reason for you doing it, what should you do instead? Do something that feels bad to you? Do something that sucks the joy of living right out of you? Feel guilty? Is that more rational? Humans don't live in frozen time. We live in waves. There's a time for feeling and a time for thinking. Integrating thinking and feeling doesn't mean doing deep reflection at the very moment you are laughing your ass off or having an orgasm. You just let go at those times. But then you do the deep thinking when the thinking time comes around. The thinking stage is where you will gradually choose to keep the things that make you feel real good and will benefit your life, eliminate those that will do you harm in the end, and learn how to balance things that are great in small quantities, but bad in excess. In other words, you don't have a choice about unexpectedly feeling great. That will happen at times whether you want to or not. You do have a choice to recognize it and/or stifle it and/or encourage it. And you do have a choice about whether you think about it later. Aristotle said it best--for anger and spending money of all things (Nicomachean Ethics--see the Wikiquote here). But it also applies to feeling good. Anyone can feel good. That is easy. Note, he did not say that is bad. Or irrational. Or hedonistic. And so on. It's just easy because it happens and you let 'er roll. But how do you know about all the rest? There's no way to know instantly. That's why I suggest just going with the flow--with no guilt--initially until you have a body of experience and patterns built up you can evaluate. Then do your thinking on it. There's no reason on earth why this is wrong because it takes time. In other words, you evaluate the pleasure and what it does to your life together. And you can only know what it does to your life by seeing the patterns. And patterns mean more than once. Time. Repetition. You don't evaluate pleasure isolated from that. It's just pleasure. So when it happens, enjoy it. Those who seek pleasure and, in their thinking, divorce it from what it does to their lives are the hedonists and whim worshipers. I'm not suggesting that at all. But I am suggesting that you have a blast when pleasure happens, even if it is something you will not keep in your life after thinking it over. (These cases give you great stories to tell later. ) And I am suggesting you use your common sense when going into an unknown pleasure. For instance, I believe it would be a very stupid thing to shoot up heroin and imagine you will only do it once when you see all those heroin addicts in front of you out in the culture. Or it would be a stupid thing to cheat on a loved one if exclusivity is important to your partner (and most times, even if it isn't ). But, for example, if you have a fling while single, realize this person is not for you but, because break-ups are hard and complicated, find yourself in bed with that person again without really meaning to do that, what's wrong with having a hell of a hump while you're humping? It's happening. It might have been stupid to get there, but it's happening. So let it be great while it's happening. When it's over and some dust settles, that's when you let your common sense kick in and you end it for real. Pleasure and pain, but no guilt. Common sense. If you just string the person along for easy sex after you know better, though, and you feel guilty about that, well you should, you bastard. Michael Thank you so much for this. I feel lighter. So true. What else am I to do? What makes me feel bad? Haha. Such a salient point. Thank you. So there are some virtues like honesty that are overarching, you don't lie to gain a value, and you need not experiment with that, but with the details you really need to live life feet on the ground so to speak, in context, learning as you go about the specifics and details, not feeling guilty, experimenting with what works, what makes you feel joy/enjoy life, and so on while adjusting accordingly to feedback with common sense reasoning afterwards.

Welcome. I'm new here too, and looking for insights and conversations. I wish you well on your studies. I just got finished listening to the lecture series "Philosophy of Objectivism" by Leonard Peikoff and it blew my mind. This is even after a few years of learning about Objectivism haphazardly. There's so much to learn and to integrate, and also to think about. You must evaluate it all on your own and decide what is right. It's easy to misunderstand too. It must be one of the most misunderstood philosophies ever. However, I'm convinced that it is a work of genius in its essentials.

The others have hijacked the thread lol. Anyway, thank you for that insight. I like your reasoning. But is doing what feels good not just hedonism or whim worship? I think this may be a bit of objectivist ethics that has not been properly figured out. Sure, man needs values. Man needs to be productive, and not act on whim on the important issues, but it's clear there are optional values and non-destructive indulgences, etc.

Cutest thing you've ever posted. And "have it" they do. --Brant I honestly have no idea what you guys have been on about for quite some time now lol. Okay. Never let it be thought that I'm trying to put you off "fun". If I discovered that fun wasn't always pleasure and pleasure wasn't always happiness (more, that it is on occasions, against happiness) it is for you to try out for yourself. Who listened to older people's advice anyway? Heh. I appreciate the sort of peer pressure - more than ever today - which a youngster in society is hemmed in by, and while it's not always wrong - there's one thing to bear in mind: Who's standards do you live by? (And choose to live by?) All conventions of behaviour- or conventions of attractiveness - don't have to be automatically discarded. They do however need to be questioned and assessed, constantly. Don't let others' premises become your own, is what I'm getting at. Finding your own self-authority in life, sometimes apart from all this orthodoxy, starts this minute. Good stuff. I still have a problem understanding what i should do apart from rational things like earn money and gain knowledge. If I can't listen to my emotions unless I know the cause then I must abandon most things that are fun. Or else I can just do things I like that I think will make me feel good and achieve them - having fun doing whatever is fun to me baring obviously self destructive things like meth and getting drunk regularly - but not know if they are ultimately actual values lol.

My question is really two threads in one. But the crux of it is this: When I make my girlfriend cry, should I feel bad and say sorry even if I think I've done nothing wrong? and Am I obligated to spend a fixed amount of time on my girlfriend to prove my love for her even if it means sacrificing my university study/career? I feel like I need more time to study and I cannot because when I ask my girlfriend becomes miserable, cold, and cries and that makes me uncomfortable and feel like a horrible person. Is it OK for me to ask for time anyway? And how am I to respond to her crying? Do I console her and tell her that I'm sorry for hurting her or do I consider her emotions invalid and act as if I have done nothing wrong.

That explains why Brant kept dodging my direct question. I wanted to hear him make his case. For the immense span of the universe, the consistency, uniformity, and universality of the physical laws which govern it is remarkable. Greg I sympathize with having awe for existence. However, one mustn't forget that the universe with its consistency, uniformity, and universality could not be otherwise. There's something interesting about life arising in it too. It means that the universe could not have existed such that life was impossible.

Superheroes are good because they embody noble qualities we admire and seek to cultivate in ourselves. They are our modern mythology. It fascinates me how a hydrogen atom can be so simple and yet so universal that you could go to the outer fringes of the universe and find exactly the same kind of atom. Greg Indeed, things are what they are. And the insane complexity that comes out of the basic nature of an atom in terms of all the possible compounds, and interactions and all the emergent properties! Yet, I'm still seeking a rational conception of an atom. Even though I study Chemistry and regurgitate what I have learned, and can see how the model is very powerful, it seems to me that an 'electron cloud' described by a wave function is not a physical theory. It does identify some characteristics of the electron in the atom, but an explanation is left open.

Take note that this statement does not require the approval or admiration of anyone but yourself. It's about what you want and how you feel. Girls being attracted to you is a byproduct. If you're making progress towards this, my only question then would be what are you doing to make your character as worthy as your physique? Good point. Good questions. I have been working very recently on my mood, cultivating a positive attitude, and most critically taking action and not procrastinating. I think constantly, (practically compulsively I can't stop), but I must start taking action. Also, I think I have some mild internet addiction which wastes a lot of time so I'll need to address that, but at least I'm often listening to or reading interesting content. I don't like that seeing my reflection in glass in public can totally ruin my entire mood so quickly. That might be more a problem of me placing so much value on my appearance. I know it's not the most important thing but it's such a sub-conscious reaction. And I need to work on my 'pride' by holding myself to a high standard more. Emotions... I need to not put them down and listen to them more. Also, I'm working on being able to enjoy things more and be able to do things I simply enjoy for their own sake without a feeling of guilt or dread that there is something else I should be doing. For the past year I've had some pretty troubling "brain fog" issues but recently it has been a little better. Thank you all for your inputs.

Ah, but you could learn how to BUILD your own Pokémon games to play. Today the gaming industry creates more wealth than the movie industry. It's one of the most vital creative innovative and prosperous economic sectors in history. By the way, is your avatar a depiction of a hydrogen atom? I think that idea is really neato. Greg Haha, true. In fact, when I was 14-16 I started to program originally because I wanted to make games. Yes, it is! Well spotted. It's Dr. Manhattan's symbol. He put it on himself and said, "if I am to have a symbol, it shall be one I respect."

Exactly. Why don't people simply do what they loved to do as children? I do today what I did when I was a kid, and my work is play. I'll never retire and will do it until I'm dead. Greg I can't play Pokemon for a living I want to be appealing to some proportion of the attractive ones. Why? what do you think that'll do for you? Isn't it obvious. I'm a straight male.... Allow me to meet and seduce attractive girls. And have lots of fun. Thrilling feelings of physical contact and intimate interactions with an attractive woman. And ultimately, with those who want to, I'd be able to have an awesome sex life. I'd also feel wanted, I suppose. Well - nothing's obvious on a forum. On a philosophical one, especially, you'd have to explain yourself further . "Fun"? I bet many of us notched up many 'conquests' in out time, chasing our tails for tail (so to speak), and also mostly found it to be basically empty. Awesome sex life? You find the best gradually, over time, with one person you know well and like a lot, respect, and trust - or maybe even, love. To "feel wanted", is getting down to the nitty-gritty, I think. Believe me or not, you won't derive any sense of belonging, acceptance - and especially not self-esteem - from being attractive to many women. Find that sense of selfhood, by your self and for yourself; paradoxically and ironically, that will be what really attracts women - as a by-product - when you don't even need their attention any more. Well you've already done it. I haven't got any conquests haha. Clearly you've gotten it out of your system. Maybe I need to chase tail to get it out of my system. I agree one mustn't derive one's whole self worth, self esteem and happiness from the opinions of other people and especially not based on whether or not girls like you. I guess what I want is a body that I feel good in and strong pride, self esteem and positivity. I believe I've been making some progress towards these ends.

"what would keep the top 5-10% of individuals or businesses from pulling large amounts of currency out of circulation." Absolutely nothing, and you would hope they would! That would help you greatly and would be a very nice favour!

Why would watching porn be in your self interest? That's an assumption. It might actually be self destructive and there's a decent body of evidence to suggest it is. Objectivism is in favour of rational self interest. That does not mean simply doing whatever feels good or whatever you happen to already like doing. It's clear you're new to Objectivism by your questions. Welcome! Doing things 'purely body' is not bad. Anyway there's almost certainly a reason other than your 'body' to be watching porn. In fact, Objectivists generally reject the Mind-Body dichotomy all together. By rejecting the dichotomy, Ayn Rand didn't accept that there is a difference, not that you shouldn't do thing for your body. So there is a result on your mind and stemming from your mind for wanting to watch porn. You are just unaware of it. Since there is no split, you see? In any case, take for example, Objectivism is 100% supportive of masturbation. Lastly, if it is in your self interest, if it's really serving your life in some way without negative consequences, then fine. It might fall under taking your sexuality into your own hands, as per masturbation. And sexuality according to main line Objectivism is not bad, and is not 'purely body'.

I want to be appealing to some proportion of the attractive ones. Why? what do you think that'll do for you? Isn't it obvious. I'm a straight male.... Allow me to meet and seduce attractive girls. And have lots of fun. Thrilling feelings of physical contact and intimate interactions with an attractive woman. And ultimately, with those who want to, I'd be able to have an awesome sex life. I'd also feel wanted, I suppose.

I want to be appealing to some proportion of the attractive ones. Thank you for the suggestion. I've considered almost anything you can think of, but without much result. To the point where people think I'm looney. Anyway, I'm booked in to do a sleep study to check my quality of sleep or whether I have sleep apnea.

Terry Goodkind is a supporter of Objectivism and writes fantasy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Goodkind There are threads on this topic that should be easy for you to find. On another forum there's this one, http://forum.objectivismonline.com/?showtopic=2155

Yes. Space is a sum of places. "Imagine an object spinning in an otherwise empty cosmos." Yet we don't live in an empty cosmos. A spinning object is always spinning in relation to something. Secondly, let's say it was ordinary matter that we know experiences centrifigul force, it would be made of atoms, and those atoms would be moving in relation to one another. If it was one atom, it'd be changing in relation to the protons and neutrons in the nucleus. If it was a single proton, it would be moving in relationship with the quarks. Perhaps spinning quarks don't undergo centrifugal force for some reason. Maybe it's a force derived from the nature of having complex matter or from having a universe full of stuff. Your thought experiment is assuming that the object would behave the same as in a full universe, in the same way complex matter does. It's meaningless. You can't say it would or wouldn't. What is your single object? Perhaps the universe is such that a single object is an impossibility. Inventing a non-existent fantasy doesn't do much to explain the universe.

Thank you for your interest. Perhaps I should do an introduction thread. My history is a tad complex. I have 2 half sisters and 3 half brothers. 2 of my brothers share a different mother from me. 1 brother, and 1 sister share a different father from me. And 1 sister has a different father from me and from the others. However, I was not raised with them. Firstly, most of them are much older than me, and secondly I was in foster care at the age of 5. Since I was in foster care, this makes little difference, but my parents didn't work. They have been on a government pension. I had four main foster homes, and briefly lived back with my parents. In the main one, the foster father worked at an orange juice factory. My real parents are now separated. I went back to live with them both when I was about 10 or so, and went back into foster care around 14 or so, and they fought constantly. It was not a pleasant experience. When I was about 12 or 13 my mother and I ran away from my father (we had ran away before but we didn't come back this time), because he was far too controlling and in general just horrible to live with. I later found out he was more abusive to my mother when I was not home. Sorry to go so deep. Anyway, I don't have contact with them anymore. I have no interest in them. What makes me ecstatic? I don't know. Nothing really. I vaguely enjoy the thrill of figuring things out and learning new interesting things about the universe. Hence why I am studying science. It seemed like the only thing that would both challenge me and keep my interest while being objective. (I didn't choose physics lol). I do like what I'm studying, but it's a lot of work. Recently I've had some issues which I call 'brain fog' which is basically bad short and long term memory, difficulty concentrating, mental fatigue all day, general mental decline. But it has alleviated somewhat and made learning easier. It's just a lot of work. But I want a degree. I couldn't find work before I went to uni so I can't go back to that life of stagnation. Since I only have 1.5 years to go, I want to finish. I think I'll take a few computer classes because I like computers, and they will count towards my degree. I don't think I want to do years of schooling to be a poorly paid over worked scientist, so I will not be going for a PhD. I taught myself to speak French, and have dabbled in other languages. I find the process somewhat fun, and speaking and using it quite fun. When I was 15 I programmed a fair bit in my spare time and found it challenging and fun, but I decided that it was going to make me unattractive and live a boring life. I really regret giving it up for such silly reasons. I enjoyed it and it would be a great skill to have. I didn't know the whole world would get programming mad. Back then no one talked about it; it was nerdy. And I was trying to be less nerdy. I've been considering taking it back up as a hobby. I really admire people who have some intense passion in some field. I want that kind of purpose. I often read and listen to podcasts on investing, finance, business and economics. That might be an option, but I kind of want to build something, make something, do something important. And of course, I dabble in philosophy. I've been asking myself recently what I would like to do purely for fun, and I can't think of anything. And then I feel worried that if I can't identify why I like something then I'm engaging in whim worship. And of course, girls are nice. Thank you. This was helpful. I have a girlfriend now, but it still bothers me that if I were to be single I'd be a dead fish in the water in terms of females lol.

But isn't the point of life to enjoy it and be happy? How can being irritable and cranky be good? How can that at all be rational? That would lessen your enjoyment of life. Can't you learn and thrive while also being in a good mood? If not, then what is the point of being alive? I know Objectivists don't consider merely existing as the goal but thriving qua man. The point of life is to stay alive and pursue your values. Feeling good happens when you accomplish a goal. The feeling is fleeting, which should motivate you to pursue your next goal. Observe nature. All creatures when they're not sleeping are busy doing something. You are not a vegetable, when you are awake you should be doing something. Get in shape, eat right, exercise regularly, sleep soundly, do stuff you like that inspires you. Liking yourself a lot, a whole lot, is a lot more satisfying than "feeling good" all the time, whatever that means anyway. Didn't Ayn Rand say something to the effect that she likes a frowning face because it's a sign that thinking is going on behind the frown? I'm often catching myself frowning intensely and feel bad about it and try to stop. lol. Interesting to know.

Ah, I see. Thank you Perhaps what you need to do is not take the Objectivist theory of emotions too seriously. If you get a good sleep and are refreshed and have lots of energy, that is a good thing, no matter what Objectivism says. Being in a positive mood as a result of health and energy is a normal cause and effect response. If Objectivism says otherwise, then phooey on Objectivism. As great a genius as Ayn Rand was, she had some funny ideas about the body mind connection. Like for example that diseases can be caused by bad premises. And her theory of sex, which would fail a scientific test. And ignoring or denying the influence of body on mind. I agree. I guess I'm trying to untangle the whole thing. Thank you for your guidance.

Oh, thank you very much! Very much look forward to any thoughts you have; even if they are that I'm completely misguided.

If you're scared to be in a good mood for no good reason, that's not actually a good mood in the first place. It's a bad one. Greg Indeed it is. Did I say otherwise? So, what happens the rest of the day? What happens the rest of the day when you wake up unhappy in a bad mood? Let me relate something about thinking. Why are you thinking about one thing when you could be thinking about another? If you feel good why not just enjoy it and think good things? This is my contrary rule for avoiding unnecessary depression. If I'm thinking bad or neagative thoughts I ask myself if it's for a positive end. If not, I stop those thoughts. --Brant If I do feel good I worry that I have no good reason to feel good, and that usually knocks me out of it. I don't feel bad per se, I just feel neutral most of the time. I would indeed like to feel good and not worry that it would cause me to lose motivation or lose touch with reality. If I feel good and I can't identify why then that worries me the most. The last part is very useful. Thank you! Nerian, Just joking. Here's language you might understand. You have requested value from others, but have offered nothing of value in return. It's a bad trade so far. Are you morally comfortable doing that? Michael I am asking a question on an open forum. People respond if they care to. What am I to offer? Payment? Who would I pay? How would I know who to ask if I don't know them already? I assumed people here were part of an online discussion board because they were interested in discussion for their own enjoyment. I still don't really get your meaning.