galtgulch

Hi! Ba'al Chatzaf, You forgot one thing. Despite the fact that in this wonderful country in which we are each free, as you say, to use our time and our energy as we each see fit, that some of that very real time and energy we expend is used, whether we each like it or not, in the service of our lord and master(s), by virtue, and I use that term loosely and sarcastically, of the fact that the money we each earn by being productive is taken from us in the form of income taxation to some extent, and the value of it is diminished to the extent that the keeper of the currency inflates the "coin of the realm" by printing up more that "it" gets to spend first. Because of withholding the money we each earn does not even pass through our hands on its way to pay someone else's bills. Are you glad that the money that you have personally earned is making someone not of your choosing happy? To sum up you are only free after taxes! You are being drained and exploited by the bloodthirsty bureaucrats only some of whom you even get to elect. I do not expect justice to be done as it would require that every legislator, Congressman and Senator who has ever voted for your enslavement, and every voter who elected them, should have to pay each of us back for all the money taken from us, albeit legally, all our lives. It was tempting to say taken out and shot but that would not be fair would it? Where is Ragnar when we need him? galt

>>>"epistemological chaos. Read the title of the thread and the first post before you decide whether the instant thought you just had belongs here or somewhere else. "<<< Hi Phil, Well, since I started this topic I have to agree with you to some extent. I fear for my Objectivist credentials because I enjoy the posts or parts of posts which stray off the topic of passing the torch at least as much as those which stay on topic altogether. As a consequence of straying off topic I have become aware of perspectives of which I was unaware. Questions have been raised which are both on topic and off topic. Where does one draw the line as to just what Objectivism is? Certainly that is part of the topic of "passing the torch." What constitutes passing the torch anyway? Does recommending Atlas Shrugged to someone fall in the category? I actually gave a copy of Atlas to a lady who has told me she has not read it and keeps it in her closet! I would not call her a "closet Objectivist!" I am beginning to see Objectivism itself as a chess game in which the really, really basic tenets are similar to the positions of the chess pieces at the beginning of the game. What happens after that is some degree of divergence in opinions similar to the various named opening moves in chess. I suspect that someday in two thousand years they will look back and identify the main strands of followers of Ayn Rand's thought which will no doubt be similar to what has happened within Christianity, with Catholics and Protestants who differ over minutia. I would still be happier to see the dialogue in this country move toward discussion of the application of Objectivist principles to the problems our society faces. I suppose if someone gets up at a town meeting and challenges an altruistic moral premise in public that might get some young person hearing it to ask where he might learn more would be another example of a way to "pass the torch!" Letters to the editor are within the reach of each of us who have not found the time to write a book. Have I stayed sufficiently on topic here i hope? (Considering that I started this wonderful topic!) gg

RC, I agree with what you say about what matters: <<<" I would say: It matters whether human beings put value on understanding the world as it is, and seek to solve their problems rationally. It matters whether human beings recognize the value of living for one's own sake. It matters whether human beings prefer capitalism and freedom, or socialism/fascism/Islamo-imperialism and subjection. It matters whether human beings are able to get inspiration from art. A lot depends on these things. If not life vs. death, then happiness vs. misery or fulfilled lives vs. unfulfilled lives."<<< However I do not understand what you mean by the following: But does it matter whether perception is error-proof, and illusions are invariably the product of a conceptual interpretation? Does it matter whether philosophy never has to depend on the empirical findings of any science? Does it matter whether living a fulfilled life means pursuing moral perfection? Does it matter whether arbitrary assertions are neither true nor false? Does it matter whether morality depends on a pre-moral choice to live? The last five claims are part of Objectivism (according to Rand herself, for the first three, and at least to Peikoff, for the fourth and fifth). I think they're all wrong."<<< Maybe I am too tired after working my 13 hour day with an hour commute on each end on Fridays. Maybe i will grasp what you are saying above. But I guess I am simple minded and prefer declaratiive sentences when stating what Objectivism states, rather than in interrogatory form. I don't know whether it is reasonable for me to expect you to take each question above and elaborate just what you mean by each so that one would be able to understand just what you think is presumably a "fundamental tenet" of Objectivism? I am tempted to make explicit just what I understand to be fundamental tenets of Objectivism here now. It would pretty much be what Rand stated while "standing on one foot." You know the drill! Metaphysics: Objective reality, Existence exists, Nature to be commanded must be obeyed, the Law of Identity, A is A, ; Epistemology: Reason, Science, rational evidence; Ethics: Rational Self Interest, no unchosen obligations, Right to one's own life; Politics: Laissez Faire Capitalism, Separation of the State and the Church, the Economy, Education, etc, the Bill of Rights, limited government, non initiation of force. <<<"Consequently, I'm not an Objectivist.">>> <<<"I have little fear, however, that in rejecting such claims as these five, I've conceded victory to the Vatican and the Kremlin (or whatever its present-day counterpart would be).">>> You state your questions in the form, Does it matter, rather than as "claims" so it is not clear to me what you see as the "claim" with which you disagee and with which you will not abide. To my way of thinking these "claims" are not fundamental tenets anyway. I do enjoy your posts and you may treat my little post here as rhetorical. After i get a good nights sleep I will try to make sense out of your "Does it matter" questions to see if I can discern the claim alleged to be a tenet of O. gg

Hi Mr Campbell, I am simply curious just what "fundamental" of Objectivism it is with which you, disagree? take issue?, have a beef? You recall Rand once referred to the fact that the real struggle in the world was ideological or philosophical and that was understood by the leadership in Moscow, the Vatican and the Empire State Building where NBI was headquartered at the time. I do think the ideological war is being waged perhaps unwittingly on the part of the contenders and that most people are totally unaware of it and participate with a degree of obliviousness to the role they play in perpetuating established dogma. Either one 'has a dog in the fight' or is merely ballast in this war. Whether we like it or not it is going on and we are among those who are aware of it on a certain level, which is to say on the only level which is meaningful in this context, philosophical. Either we keep the perspective to ourselves, let the writings of a deceased writer/philosopher carry on the battle for us, or devote whatever time and whatever means we deem appropriate in the context of our own lives to the cause. So the choice is Spear-carrier or Ballast! Where is the smilie of the guy beating his head against the wall when one needs him? galt

At least the subject of free will versus determinism has found the light of day. I detect a note of reluctance on Brook's part to give up on the notion that we have "free will." He points out that the whole issue of "individual responsibility" and "morality" itself depend on the concept of "free will." It sounds to me that Brooks might be receptive to hearing that there is a whole body of knowledge which has reason to believe in free will, individual responsibility and a rational moral standard. "Whole body of knowledge" is my euphemism for Objectivism! I might have to find the time to write to him. galt

As I understand it virtually every state in the country has laws which justify involuntary hospitalization for people who are "mentally ill.", meaning they fulfill the criteria for an Axis I psychiatric diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual DSM of the American Psychiatric Association APA, and are considered to be a danger to themselves, suicidal, or a danger to others, homicidal. or are unable to care for themselves. It is curious that non mentally ill folks, including folks with an Antisocial Personality Disorder, who have served out their sentence for whatever crime they committed, must be released once they "wrap." A high percentage of these folks will reoffend. But a mentally ill person can be held for successive recommitments, usually one year at a time, in a psychiatric prison hospital, even after their sentence is done, if they remain "mentally ill" and are considered t be dangerous because of their impaired judgment, delusional thoughts, paranoia, even though their index offense occurred years before with no subsequent aggressive or assaultive behavior. Too often hospital staff fear recommending release of such folks even to State Hospitals, because they worry they will be held responsible if such people were to reoffend. It is too bad that fellow students did not act to help this fellow feel he belonged. No one befriended him in all the years he spent at this college as he was a senior. His behavior was evidently offputting. Colleges should identify such kids early and have a program to help reach out to them using professional staff rather than to rely on fellow students, which latter would be preferable. But my point is that for the safety of society it is possible to hospitalize someone where there is suspicion of "mental illness" and danger to others. At least such folks could be evaluated. Courts can also order treatment if someone is deemed not competent to make such decisions. This tragedy could have been averted. galt

How utterly lacking in respect for another human being manifest in the actions of the killer. It suggests he has no respect for himself and a profound envy of others who must seem to him to have whatever it is he lacks. I think he had his own suicide as a goal and suspect he experienced hatred and envy toward others in the past but knowing he was going to kill himself and hence not suffer the consequences of his murderous rampage methodically indulged his desire to kill others first. No wonder this subject is not being talked about on this forum unless I missed it. I sympathize with the victims and their parents, siblings, friends, classmates and anyone who knew them. galt

Update Worldgate released a Press Release today in which they announced that they have developed a way to facilitate Ojos being signed up with the various service providers with whom WGAT has been in negotiations. I may not be saying it quite correctly so here is the link to the PR: http://tinyurl.com/2e9zlc Investors are excited by this development as it should enable completion of contract negotiations as one of several benefits. The stock which had been driven down in recent weeks to as low as 65 cents a share closed up the last few sessions and closed today 4/16 at 79 cents a share. Be reminded that SNAP (www.snapvrs.com) is on verge of shipping Ojos to hearing impaired and deaf subscribers some of whom have been testing the Ojo and their testimonials are quite positive. Also an infomercial is being produced and should be released and shown on TV in the near future. We also await a Home Shopping Network HSN sale of the Ojo probably on an Electronics segment or one devoted to gadgets. The Ojo is already on the HSN Electronics page listed as a Customer Pick. In addition several deals have been signed with communications companies worldwide, including companies in Japan, Russia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Israel, Turkey, Great Britain, Panama, Costa Rica, Columbia, etc, and with Global Touch which services VOIPs. The Ojo is available at several brick and mortar retail stores across the country including Hammacher Schlemmer, RCS Electronics, J&R, Frye, CompUSA, Myer Emko, and others. See more complete listing at www.ojophone.com The Ojo and the Shadow Ojo are available at a number of online retailers including www.thenerds.net, www.101phones.com, amazon.com, and many more. The company's burn rate exceeds its revenue so far but revenue has been growing each quarter. I suggest you read the Prospectus available at www.ojophone.com under Investor Relations section, then SEC documents, 10k there. Although there are ways for people to use PCs with webcams to see each other free of charge, not counting the cost of the PC and the internet service charges, the Ojo does not require a PC at all, just a high speed Broadband cable or DSL connection, has an arguably better picture and sound, and can be used anywhere in your home using your electrical system with special easily available internet network extenders (Netgear or Homeplug) which just adds a cost of $99 for the two ethernet cables. There is a monthly fee of just $9.95 for Unlimited Video Calls over broadband at any time and wherever in the world one has access to the broadband internet which is virtually everywhere nowadays. One can even save a month's charge by paying annually. Enhancements can and have been downloaded by the company to Ojos such as video messaging. Such downloads promise to continue and have been free. This product, judging by the high degree of satisfaction of those who already own and use the Ojo at home and in business, has a staggering upside potential which may rise exponentially as sales increase and acceptance in the marketplace increases awareness of it. A little boy tried to pet a dog through the Ojo as the picture is profoundly realistic. Grandparents love the Ojo because they can watch their grandchildren grow up and see them more frequently than otherwise possible if they live at a distance. One owner checks on his father who is in a nursing home halfway across the country, every day. Parents who are in early stage of dementia are much more likely to recognize their grown child on the Ojo than on a traditional phone call. The possibilities and benefits are endless. The Ojo saves travel time by enabling visits with a low flat monthly rate and saving on gas. Feel free to ask me any questions you might have about the Ojo and the Shadow Ojo. galt

" I feel that Objectivist Living is making a much greater impact." Hi! Kat, No doubt about it. I am very happy to have found this site and do mention it and recommend it to others. You must be pleased with the growth in members which appears to keep growing. Do you have any numbers you would be willing to share? I never had a desire to start a club. I just recommend Rand's books or engage in conversations and try to find a hook to justify recommending Atlas. I recently encountered a fellow who loves to read books on physics and i suggested there is a book where the hero of the novel is a physicist! Its fun. I saw my wife off at an Amtrak station and recommended Atlas to the conductor assuming he loved trains and he said it is just a job. It is a great icebreaker and has helped me overcome my shyness. galt (no relation)

Well said Ed. I wish you would be more explicit about the immorality of taxation instead of just arguing that it is unConstitutional. Trouble is that according to the prevailing moral code as you know taxation is justified. you might mention that the mere fact that some of their constituents have a NEED does not entitle them to the productive effort of hard working tax payers. you might mention that the present Federal Budget is thirty times higher than the Federal Budget was in 1960 when it first reached 100 Billion dollars. It is now over 3000 Billion dollars. Try not pulling your punches next time. Thank you in all seriousness for your efforts. galt

'Yodah says: Do not your breath hold, Young GaltGulch, until made is movie of -Atlas Shrugged- else blue turn you will.' "No man's need constitutes an obligation on the part of another man to fulfill that need!" anonymous Objectivist

I started this thread wondering how come the numbers of Objectivists has not grown into the tens of millions. After all, our philosophy is rational, provides a moral standard by which one can guide one's actions to achieve one's own goals in a rather irrational society, provides a perspective by which to judge whatever one has to contend with in one's own life, and enables one to be confident that one is right especially when one takes positions which are contrary to establishment beliefs. It should be spreading like wildfire. The thread got off on tangents about the effect of the movie and what would happen after the fictional collapse of society in Atlas the book! Others are moved to comment on the inspiration of 300 where men go down fighting for their freedom knowing they are in a losing battle. I believe that the numbers should have doubled each year since the late sixties. The fact that hasn't happened means that those twenty thousand in 1968 did not embark on a venture to enlighten at least one other each year who would go on and do the same. It is sad because we are armed with a rational alternative to the prevailing theology and there are young people thirsting for a rational alternative. Instead they are succumbing to accepting the nonsense which passes for wisdom, longing for eternal life after death as their reward for shutting off their mind by not allowing themselves to wonder, to doubt and to question their parents beliefs. I generalize. I remember once as a youngster allowing myself to consider the possibility of accepting traditional beliefs, with full realization that I did not and never had. I knew that it might be impossible to find a girl who shared my non traditional beliefs, in a society filled with church going, temple going, mosque going familiies. It was just a momentary exercize. i knew I couldn't and wouldn't go against my judgment just to fit in. I do think there are growing numbers of rational, scientifically oriented young people, just as there continue to be legions of those who go to religious colleges and universities and accept the prevailing theology. One of them sits in the White House and believes that God talks to him daily! It remains a race against time. I think each of us should be more thoughtful in finding ways to spread Objectivism. Even if it just means writintg letters to the editor espressing rational views without mentioning Objectivism explicitly. Instead we talk to each other which is fine. Maybe more is happening than I am aware of. i certainly hope so. I recall that when I mentioned the idea of writing a book to the fellow who made me aware of Objectivism his response was that Ayn Rand's books and journal were already written. BTW I googled "ayn rand" evolution. I have always been intrigued by the question although I always knew that the answer was natural processes and never supernatural. I wonder why Rand was so agnostic on the subject. Perhaps it was just her lack of education in biology and chemistry and geology and astronomy and science in general. That is strange because she had wanted to become an engineer. here is the first link at that google page: http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Parill...Evolution.shtml I am tempted to go to the Marathon course tomorrow and proselytize among the spectators. There are two torches I pass these days. Atlas Shrugged and the Ojo. galt (no relation)

<<<" I'm certainly not advocating a sequel, but it does seem reasonable to say that the question of how the world gets itself back together after the debacle at the end of AS remains, er, somewhat unresolved.">>> Well what comes to mind is that Ragnar disgorges the gold bars he has been keeping to return to those individuals from whom it had been confiscated through taxation. WIth that capital back in the hands of those who know how to create and with a government reduced to protecting the rights of individuals and a gold standard to boot, prosperity logically follows. I oversimplify but whether it would make a good sequel is moot. galt (no relation!)

"Galt; This is the ultimate primacy of consciousness." Chris, I know. What he said belongs in what used to be entitled The Horror File. I will get to talk to this young fellow again and perhaps the subject will come up. After all, he is a human being and therefore has a volitional conceptual consciousness. so he might be amenable to reason. I had occasion to mention this notion that humans have a volitional conceptual consciousness to an attorney who was raised Catholic but although he still goes to church and takes his two kids to church, he says he no longer believes the Dogma. He appreciated that it is a very hopeful idea that everyone retains the aspect of volition regarding their attribute of conceptual thought. I am not an academic by a long shot but it is tempting to write a book about such things if I can find the time. All these best sellers lately by Sam Harris and Dennett or Dawkins which lambast religion suggest that there may be some openness to a fresh look especially regarding child rearing. After all the authors have not been assassinated, yet. I would rather focus on the effect of ideas on a child. Parents seem more concerned about nutrition, what to feed their kids, and just continue to perpetuate ideas which can be traced back to antiquity without much question. Their reasons for doing so are flimsy. galt

Michael Actually I believe the technology exists to clone old Victor Hugo if we could just dig him up to get a cell from whatever might be left like a hair or a bone. He would be hard to 'copy' or simulate as far as his writing goes. Do you know anyone who writes in the style of Victor Hugo? Even Rand who admired him as the best novelist of all time but didn't agree with his philosophy, did not write in his style. I wish she had. I love the atmosphere he creates and his descriptions, not to mention his plots. I am not interested in sequels to his works. I just wonder what new story he would create about our world. What heroes, what conflicts, what struggles, what plot themes? galt

As if there are different realities depending on what one believes. He really did believe that if one believed one thing that would be what actually happens but if you believed another way then something else would hold true. Now the question is how to determine where to draw the line between misconception and psychotic delusion. Curious that there is no category Religion of all the categories on this Forum. Has everyting been said among Objectivists about religion that there is nothing left to discuss? I think this question of mine belongs more in the category psycho epistemology. galt

<<<"Yodah says: Do not your breath hold, Young GaltGulch, until made is movie of -Atlas Shrugged- else blue turn you will.">>> Hi! BaalChatzaf, I am certain that I will be thrilled to see not just the actual movie version of Atlas Shrugged but the advertising for it everywhere including bigger than life billboards in Times Square in New York City! Even if we as Objectivists do find things to criticize about aspects of the film or the performances of the actors and actresses the net effect will be positive. By that I concur that sales of the book and perhaps Rand's essays will rise. It is to be expected that some grouches in the media will have their distorted nonsense to disgorge to discourage anyone from seeing the movie or reading the books. I hope someone gifted in such matters is contemplating a sequel. I sometimes wonder what Victor Hugo would be writing today if he lived in these times. galt

I recall thinking when I discovered that there were about twenty thousand subscribers to The Objectivist in 1968 that if each of them managed to enlighten one more person in the course of one year who in turn did the same that there would be a doubling each year in the number of us. Five million in eight years and twenty million in ten years In just a couple of years further there would be enough of us to win the election for president. Evidently that is not the rate of growth of adherents of our philosophy. Obviously we each have our own lives to live and no unchosen obligation to spread the word for anyone else's good. But certainly it is in our own interest as individuals to live in such a society and I would have thought that many of us would and probably do pass the torch to some extent as the opportunities arise. So how come there aren't more of us than there are? I am sure there are more of us than there were! After all the society is hurting and we are holding the key or the antidote. Perhaps the Atlas Shrugged movie will lead to more people rediscovering the Ayn Rand books and essays. Meanwhile I am sure that many of us do indeed at least recommend Rand's books. Hard to make a living as a torch passer. galt

Kat, et al, As a child I read The Meaning of Evolution by George Gaylord Simpson who was then Curator at the American Museum of Natural History and books on astronomy by Sir James Jeans which were eye openers in those days before science became popularized by the likes of Isaac Asimov, James Trefil, Richard Feynman and others. I recall my mother unleashing me in the Grand Army Plaza main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library and finding The Star Gazer by Zoltan Harzanyi which is a biography of Galileo. Impressive insight into the workings of the Holy Roman Inquisition of which amazingly most folks raised in Catholicism manage to remain ignorant. My wife is going to Manhattan tomorrow and I will remain behind to go to work to keep the proverbial ball rolling. One of her missions will be to go to the Strand Bookstore on Broadway and 12th Street and find for me a copy of The Structure of Evolutionary Theory by the late Stephen Jay Gould. It is a 4.9 pounder which I hefted at Barnes and Noble but instead of paying fifty bucks we will get it for twenty at the Strand! I love books and science books are among my favorite categories. i will not live long enough to read all the unread books I already own but I love to be surrounded by them at home. There is always the hope that my ship will come in which would give me more time to read. galt

It took him twenty years to succeed in having the Parliament in Britain abolish slavery by vote without having to fight a Civil War to do it. William Wilberforce was a religious man but one of the more rational humane ones who was moved to devote himself to his cause throughout his career. One can hope that those of us in the Objectivist movement are as successful in our endeavor to lay the foundation for a truly free society based on a rational view of man and Nature. I would say we have our work cut out for us but at least the antidote is known. galt

[ "Mileva was more of an intellect in her own right ..."] I appreciate your response but you did not indicate that you actually saw the PBS piece which was compelling and did suggest that certain crucial ideas were hers and that there was documentation to that effect. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. Actually I do not know what the truth is. I would like to see the show again and try to find the sources mentioned. The show does not seem to have had any impact and I believe that Einstein's reputation will continue to stand as the originator of the Theory of Relativity. I have always admired him but I will go on thinking that his wife may have been more than just a catalyst to his thinking on the subject. If she did have the idea first than she would be another woman deserving sympathy for not getting the credit she may have deserved. We may never know the truth on this one. I suppose that in the absence of evidence to the contrary we do have reason to believe that Einstein was the originator of the Theory. The PBS thing did put a doubt in my mind as it dramatized an alternative to what everone believes. Their dramatization may not be correct I agree. But still...? galt

Victor, I feel compelled to add to the discussion. There was a recent PBS special about Einstein and in it one learned that he fell in love with a bright young female who was also a physicist. I do not recell her name and it is a shame because although his name lives on forever, the gist of the special was that it was his wife who is responsible for the crucial aspects or concepts of the theories for which Albert has been given the credit! I am surprised that no one else here is aware of that. At least we can rest assured that our heroine did write Atlas Shrugged herself and even gave her husband credit for the title of the novel as its working title from the beginning was "The Strike." galt

Some wise person bought up however many Shadow Ojos were still in stock at the CompUSA stores which are closing in Massachusetts, so the Natick, Brighton and North Attleboro stores are sold out of the Ojo. There are a number of online etailers which carry the Ojo at a discount to the MSRP. The least expensive and quite reliable establishments include www.101phones.com and www.the nerds.net where you might enter ojo in their search box. Amazon also carries the Ojo. www.ojophone.com which is the same site as www.wgate.com carries both models at a discount to the MSRP. WorldGate is putting up a new website soon. In my wildest dreams advocates of Objectivism make a killing on their WGAT investment and become wealthy enough to be in a better position to devote more time and energy if so inclined to help spread Objectivism. I know it is just a dream. But an insider at the company who is a Director did buy sixty thousand shares recently so I assume he knows something suggesting that good news is coming and the stock will go up and keep going up from its bargain basement price of $0.67 close on Thursday. galt

Has anyone taken the trouble to look at this product perhaps online at www.ojophone.com? Has it occurred to anyone that this gadget would enable you to actually see a loved one or friend who lives at a distance? I might add using the Ojo would save on long distance phone bills especially those with per minute charges and overseas calls. The Ojo would set you back just $9.95 per month for UNLIMITED VIDEO TELEPHONE CALLS over broadband cable or DSL. No per minute charges. Flat monthly rate. I bought one myself. It is easy to set up and it WORKS as if the person you are calling is sitting right there across from you. It is more like a visit and you can talk all you like for flat monthly payment of less than $10 bucks. galt