anthony

Right. To "preserve the balance of power". The Kremlin since warned it might move missiles nearer that region. If the Finnish territory becomes, what amounts to, a strategic forward base for NATO, I personally think they'd be extremely foolish. (Finland has one of the biggest armies in Europe). I ask (not you - I know)- Who is the (passive?) aggressor, here? And has consistently been for 20+ years? https://www.rt.com/news/555360-moscow-finland-nato-membership/

Well, actually Kyiv was "murdering people" - Ukraine citizens - first. (For the past 8 years, I kept reminding). And its battalions all that time, being trained and supplied by the West for those Donbass attacks, as you read earlier. Say- there were a settlement of expat Americans being held hostage and murdered by, say, the Govt. or a terror gang in Costa Rica, a US raid, maybe an invasion to rescue them would be morally expected of your government, no? So the perception can depend on one's media-fed bias, as to which are the victims and who's the victimizer. All Putin's acts and words show this: Right or wrong, he certainly ¬believes¬ Russia and Russian-Ukrainians have been and are being 'victimized' and repressed, held hostage - so to speak - so he needs to "liberate" the East. Crazy, hey? When everybody knows how innocent and pure have been Nato's and Ukraine's motives. What I saw in previous arguments on the vaxxes, you hadn't ever bothered to open the many links and peruse contrary info which might compromise your settled position. That's objectivist?

One for MSK: RT propaganda... US Democrats use Ukraine biolab profits for campaign funding – Russia — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union WWW.RT.COM Democrat leadership, transnational Big Pharma and the Pentagon are behind the Ukraine biolab program, says the Russian military

Eight years ago. Such foresight! Expecting/anticipating/inviting trouble from Russia, was the Pentagon? Lends weight to Putin's recent speech, that his forces invaded to pre-empt a huge buildup and imminent assault on the East by Kyiv. Now I'm inclined to believe that.

The initial groundswell of Ukraine support from the West could not survive. What Tucker Carlson noted to be the response mainly from "good-hearted Americans" is true, and for others elsewhere - so long as there are goals in sight and motions for an end to hostilities - and the price of support doesn't exceed the long term costs, sacrificially. Now that it's been announced that a war, which is not directly self-defensive, will be prolonged indefinitely and likely intensified dangerously, totally dismissing the negotiation/treaty route, as from the very start ... the purpose openly and shamelessly stated by the authorities is to "weaken Russia". While simultaneously (and cynically and grotesquely) weakening and killing/injuring more Ukrainians on the West's behalf. A proper self-interest is rising. The people will be less interested in Governments' posturing and pseudo-moralizing for their Russophobic ends . What business is it to ordinary people? Who said "we" must come to Ukraine's material or human support? Especially when "we" begin to learn we were emotionally blackmailed into a global self-sacrifice by deception, that Russia was not entirely "unprovoked" - by Ukraine nor NATO.

Yeah, that's where most people have remained fixated: "Unprovoked" attack on innocent Ukrainians. Any more, confuses the Narrative. I say to some that a young nation which not long after nationhood, overthrows its democratically elected government because it didn't suit many any longer, and does so in violent clashes with Gvt. supporters and the new government attacks those for desiring to break away, is hardly Democratic or a Nation or free and innocent, and is setting a chain of unforeseeable and possibly bad things in motion. A counter- revolution? Counter-counter rebellions? Civil war? A foreign invasion (to purportedly or actually protect the original supporters)? A widening international conflict? Who knows?

All I'm watching is escalation with no end in sight, one that those governments with itchy trigger fingers, are visibly relishing. The excuses and alibis have already been cooked up and popularly digested- to be used in the event of any outcome. No one available of Kissinger's caliber, even. I must be frank, the present US Administration's Foreign Policy stinks. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwinpYGE_tL3AhUKQvEDHRKGCSEQFnoECEAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbrinkmanship&usg=AOvVaw0YmoHVBfqsXhhc5CY9CA-j

Yes, it caught me too - he is one sharp observer - while Tucker does qualify "at some level" (that this is punishment on Putin for 'hacking' that election]. Clearly, there are other motives too. Goes to show, never to overlook the obvious or simplistic that we'd consider ridiculous. These are not intellectual giants, and mustn't be overestimated as such. Now, I can accept that a part of their ¬psychological¬ motivation is "a childish, self-defense mechanism" as Carlson says. It's returning to the schoolyard underneath all their moralizing bluster, and they have long memories for defeat and rejection by the People. Self-assessment seems impossible to some, so there had to be an outside influence on an election. When weak men and women in power begin to compensate with belligerence - look out, they will be lethal.

Tucker Carlson supplies the missing jigsaw pieces. It was about payback. And don't expect any peace negotiation any time soon.

Perception meets reality. What happens when the propagandists believe their own propaganda. Our heroes can win - are winning. Therefore, we refuse to seek a peace treaty, while pride demands we must beat Putin at his own game. The reality, Ukraine is not winning this war and will lose the Donbass (which demands - for its sake - that diplomacy and negotiations had begun yesterday). The East-South, it's becoming apparent, was the single Russian objective, negating the major expansionist, imperialist rhetoric. This military observer confirms the Kyiv assault was indeed a tactical diversion, that worked. Ukraine is winning the battle on Twitter, but in the real world Kiev is losing the fight for the Donbass — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union WWW.RT.COM US and Ukrainian officials work to create a perception of Russian military defeat, but the reality on the ground paints a different picture

Noam Chomsky, here's a thinking philosopher. Redundancy?

And he is right. He alludes to the identical mystical-determinism that's infected secularists-leftsts: "Jewish" (etc.) is 'in your blood'.

Seems, the division of opinion about Ukraine's war can be reduced to those who believe it started with Feb 24 and those who know differently. The tree that fell in the forest did make a sound. While you didn't hear it happen, an event is independent of consciousness. But, unseen (by the West), 8 years of civil war gained little attention since it was hardly reported on in the West: some simple Russian-speaking peasants in conflict with their EU leaning Govt - who cares? Some people and Putin did, evidently. "Moscow-backed separatists" has been raised in news propaganda lately. Never mentioned, the *Kyiv-backed anti-separatists*. I didn't hear til recently, that Putin advised them against the Donbass' attempt for their autonomy from Kyiv. Or, that a Ukraine assault on the Crimea was imminent early this year, with forces concentrated there preparing with heavy artillery bombardment (whatever one thinks about Russia annexing the Crimea, anyone can safely presume Putin would defend it). Two items, far as I know, little reported to the West. It's reasonable to assume that without Putin's intervention THAT lengthy civil war between East and West would be going on still today, unendingly. He upped the stakes dramatically with an invasion. Whether his actions will stop the Eastern conflict and establish the 'republics' remains to be seen, but that is his stated intent. A little more rare and quite amateurish video footage on the preceding Donbass conflict in French. WATCH: French Journalist Is Censored For Reporting The Truth About The Russia-Ukraine Conflict AVIPNADEL37659.LT.ACEMLNB.COM American media has molded the current narrative about the Russia-Ukraine conflict to suit the needs of the political class in both major...

A case in point. The Morris couple honestly explore nuances and ramifications ("ask what does it accomplish?") of the war which the mainstream media in the UK and US deliver as "settled science".

I'm very aware of the border crisis Michael. Thing about the media's brainwashing is that even those skeptical viewers of the media, continue to believe in the media. They couldn't do this! They wouldn't do that. They aren't that blatantly faking facts, are they? And there are photos, those can't be falsified! This is an area I've informally studied for several years. I am familiar with the techniques used (due to my background in daily news and PR) and which have exploded enormously with the newer tools, since. For years among other networks and papers, I intensively watched CNN, the biggest by far global transmitter of America's affairs, and saw their objectives unfolding. In short, they have misrepresented and distorted not only many Americans' concepts about America and themselves, but most foreigners as well--towards an ideological goal. By those few perverted media corporations and many intellectuals, the vicious ideas and values have spread globally. Obvious to Oist types, you take over the individual minds, you gain total power over the masses: and, sure - secondarily, wealth follows and/or is the lure. The cumulative effects of propaganda, not just about a news item or major occurrence or politician etc., when over-stressed, exaggerated or under-reported and unmentioned, I think of as the oxygen being slowly sucked out of the room. You keep on breathing but don't know you're being suffocated to death on 'unreality'. A constructed "Narrative" is too weak and over-used to describe the unreality and fantasy that most of the West exist in. Perpetrated by the organs of information and opinion whom we still trust to deliver our daily dose of reality. We only have to return to the last few years to realize how much most people's minds have been molded to submit, obey and repeat the identical narrative, then control over others. That pandemic conditioning was like a dry run for the present war. The hard work is already done. Proven, where people haven't a solid grasp on objective reality they are pawns in someone's game. I know 'fake news' is a well known slogan, it too falls short of describing the absolute control propaganda has: even on those who ¬think¬ they know better. It has taken them in too. Easy to do, make people 'think with their feelings'. Or, make evaluations with their emotions. And they are hooked.

Smart move NATO. The panic mongering worked and Finland and Sweden gave in. That's how to defuse matters... NATO's completed the "encirclement" - now no one is in any doubt who's the (covert) aggressor.

A "weakened Russia". Now we know. Coming even at the expense of Ukraine (that's looking more like the fall-guy in this saga every day) and Ukrainians. Prospects of soon negotiating a settlement are looking less likely as result.. The longer more volatile the war the weaker will be Russia, qed. Would it please the Pentagon if they fought each other to a standstill? US seeks 'weakened' Russia – Pentagon — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union WWW.RT.COM The US wants Russia too “weakened” to invade a neighboring state again, Pentagon chief Lloyd Austin has revealed

Topmost of Putin's immoral statements have been his nuke references. Bluff, defense against western intervention, intimidation, or whatever his rationale, Trump rightly calls him out. Found on RT. Of all places, to be even, indirectly, critical of Putin. (Is any RT news available to you guys over there? As said before, we should see -all- the propaganda-stroke- info to form our opinions. These news/opinion inserts I find go a little way to redressing the balance with MSM's spin) Trump says he’d stop Putin from using the ‘N-word’ — RT World News WWW.RT.COM Former President Donald Trump has said he’d stop Russian President Vladimir Putin from saying the word “nuclear” ever again

I actually agree with Brook for once - on preemption. A swift preemptive strike or couple, to block or end an enemy's clearly belligerent intentions. At his military forces, that is. A proper national self-defense has to preferably start outside the country's borders, before they are penetrated. One does not meekly wait for someone to throw the first punch when you can see or strongly suspect one is coming at you. Most libertarian, is that passive notion of non-initiation of force. ARI got so twisted out of shape by anti-Trump-prejudice, I think they could fit in anywhere today, leftist to neo-con. Reminds me of when you get over-invested in "a position", could be a stock market share, a romantic relationship or a political stance or a philosophical argument, and you suddenly realize - you got things wrong: that does hurt. You a). back off, admit the mistake to yourself, cut your losses and acknowledge your error of judgment to others involved and handle the consequences or b. buy deeper into the terrible investment and take mounting losses, faking it, making the position harder to back off any time..

David Kelley hosts Richard Salsman and Robert Tracinski in debate. Robert brings up the same talking points from his essay above, Richard comes in at 20min (his general take and overview matches mine, and others here at OL).

And if there's nothing to hide why is the 'spin' from Russia Today been stifled and banned? Donbass Under Fire. Life in the Donetsk Republic Under Bombs | RT Documentary ODYSEE.COM After the Donetsk People’s Republic was proclaimed, war ravaged Donbass. Ukrainian artillery has been shelling towns and villages...

And read someone else. For the record, I don't accept one or other. I'm unconvinced by either writer's opposing, argued opinion, morally or politically, they both contain an excess of self-justifications and rationalizing from fixed and preset premises. While both sets of facts are presumably valid. The hard question: which facts are ¬more¬ "valid", and most important? Unchanged - the packaged 'storyline' that has swept up the mass of people - only cynical demons over there; all angels/victims here - never will ring true. Daniel Kovalik: Why Russia's intervention in Ukraine is legal under international law — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union WWW.RT.COM Russia’s incursion in Ukraine is more justified under the “right to protect” than what the West has done in the past

Propaganda from the other side> RT: "Genocide"? UN refuses to back Ukraine 'genocide' claims — RT World News WWW.RT.COM The office of UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has said that it hasn’t recorded signs of genocide during the Ukrainian... Surrender? Russia makes another offer to besieged Ukrainian forces — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union WWW.RT.COM Besieged Ukrainian fighters can exit Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol at any time without their weapons, Russia’s Defense Ministry says Russian soldiers bearing food? Ukraine accuses mayor of treason — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union WWW.RT.COM Ukraine has charged the mayor of Balakleya with treason for accepting Russian humanitarian aid and the restoration of utilities in the town

An over-view needs deep digging into. There were too many lesser and aggravating factors which can't be overlooked, prior to this point of war. NATO's knowing actions in encroaching closer to Russian territory by inviting further members, after said territory was greatly reduced or broken up, I argue is and was *implicit* aggression - but also *explicit* and psychological intimidation - i.e., political, economical, cultural, even ethnic - all purposefully directed against the RF. They certainly knew there could be consequences, for decades Putin cautioned against the cynical encirclement. It has been said that NATO ¬wanted and invited¬ those consequences to provoke confrontation. It could appear this was true. Unless one assumes NATO were totally blind and ignorant. Quite, an amoral authoritarian state also has the right or obligation to defend its people. There was the anti-democratic violent overthrow of a Gvt. by a Ukrainian minority in order to pressure on the electorate, a left turn towards European culture and EU trade. (Which was accompanied by some amount of language/cultural discrimination against Russian speakers, one might call ethnic bigotry. To the point of a pending bill regarding Russian language). https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwihnei_tKf3AhWIFMAKHV3hCJIQFnoECCUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-ukraine-parliament-language-idUSKCN1S111N&usg=AOvVaw0S1d7q-MKSmOiSONdqDsvL The subsequent loss of confidence in the national Gvt., by the Ukraine-Russian population, clearly not representative of the latter's interests - directly fed their desire for self-determination and led to the East regions' desire for separation. A continuous and unjust warfare conducted against the East by the Gvt. Even the Minsk agreements were not implemented by Kyiv, designed to give the Donbas special status in the Ukraine. Kyiv reneged on the deal. Lastly, Putin deployed troops to the border as early as March 2021, obviously giving a warning that wasn't heeded. The final cog in place, a pipeline go-ahead to supply the (self-sacrificial) addiction by Germany etc., on Russia's oil and natural gas - to subsidize Russia's war machine. Putin invaded then, his ambitions clearly to take the East and South to create his corridor. (Not, as fantasists of a neo-Russian Empire would have it, Ukraine itself). How much he ends up with, and he will win and/or negotiate some objectives in all likelihood, can be limited in tough negotiations. (The reason they must take place very soon). For Ukraine's sake, he must certainly be prevented, in negotiations (or by force, if necessary), a take over of Odessa. But Russian forces venturing any further afield outside the largely supportive Donbas regions' inhabitants, is a ludicrous notion imo, doubtful that Putin would even want to.. History keeps showing to invade is one thing, occupation completely another. One can see all above as an escalation of evasions. A chain of events, a - b, b- c... Nothing HAD to happen this way, nothing is "determined", but the signs flashing some highly possible causal outcomes, were there all the while to be identified and dealt with timeously, instead were ignored. Ethics: Altruism. The sacrifices caused by a willful unconsciousness by many. Since evasion is evil there were plenty of evils on all sides. The innocents who ultimately pay, the civilians. Their pumping in vast arms supplies - while not strenuously pushing negotiations - will drag on and escalate the war for diehard Ukrainian fighters and more citizens to soon be sacrificed in the West's "Cause to Defeat Russia" - which western leaders must have been advised is highly improbable, for the Ukraine Army to do - the latest evasive maneouver.

I didn't know Zelensky was in there, but right. Moral character, the core of a rational ethics. Graft is not a virtue. Not to forget Putin's wealth...