Great Literature

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bill P (who is familiar with NLP, with the arguments about the (il)legitimacy of its scientific basis, etc...)

Bill,

I only use the term NLP because it is the most well-known. Whether it is scientific or not, I don't know. I do know that much of what I have read and watched makes perfect sense to me (although I can't get into Bandler to save my life). The people I see who base their work on this stuff are wildly successful: Tony Robbins, Frank Kern, Eben Pagan, etc.

Michael

[Alfonso Jones]

Bill P (who is familiar with NLP, with the arguments about the (il)legitimacy of its scientific basis, etc...)

Bill,

I only use the term NLP because it is the most well-known. Whether it is scientific or not, I don't know. I do know that much of what I have read and watched makes perfect sense to me (although I can't get into Bandler to save my life). The people I see who base their work on this stuff are wildly successful: Tony Robbins, Frank Kern, Eben Pagan, etc.

Michael

Michael -

I'm interested in the "wildly successful" in the paragraph above. When you say that, for example, Tony Robbins is "wildly successful" do you mean in selling his seminars, books, audios/tapes and videos? Or do you mean he has been demonstrated to be able to produce results? (I note that many religions, for example, are wildly successful in the same sense - selling books and other products, maintaining loyal adherents, etc...

If it's only the selling of his books, etc. . . . then the criterion is suspect. I'd be interested in seeing actual evidence which supported the claims of NLP. I'm not a scholar on the subject - just have a modest familiarity with the arguments about whether it is well-grounded. There's a lot of dispute on that front.

Regards,

Bill P (open-minded, but looking for more clear evidence than he's seen thus far)

[Dragonfly]

Conspiracy theories and psychologizing thrive well on Objectivist forums, the principle of charity not.

[9thdoctor]

I think NLP calls for its own thread, it’s an interesting subject but here we’re seeing lots of thread drift.

Xray’s doing a victory lap over JR’s refusal to engage her further, I’d like to add my voice to the chorus of support for JR by noting that I no longer bother to read her posts. Except when another poster replies and includes a quote from her, and then the value I’m seeking is primarily amusement. However, even Adam (OL’s Regius Jester) isn’t putting in much effort anymore on this count. So tedium is the order of the day when the conversation includes Xray. Perhaps a special Xray analysis thread is called for? Lead lined to minimize the health risks from repeat exposure?

Thanks Ted, for posting the Joyce poems. They show how readable he can be. A clarification to my post #330, I wrote that “Ulysses…must be heard, not read”, I really should have said “heard, then read”. FWIW Ulysses is not on my top ten list, not even close, but spend a Bloomsday (June 16) eve in an Irish pub, with a pint (or 3) of Murphy’s or Guinness, with committed fans in period dress reading excerpts aloud, and you can’t dismiss it as “trash” like Binswanger does.

[Philip Coates]

> here we’re seeing lots of thread drift...posting the Joyce poems.

That's the only post for the last page or so that's been on literature.

[Selene]

> here we're seeing lots of thread drift...posting the Joyce poems.

That's the only post for the last page or so that's been on literature.

Thank you posting monitor.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bill P (open-minded, but looking for more clear evidence than he's seen thus far)

Bill,

Robbins has more credits and endorsements from major celebrities in many different fields under his belt than he will ever need. He has coached many of them about their careers and endeavors at critical times in their lives. I think he focused on presenting lectures and seminars not just for the money, which he makes plenty of in several areas. According to him, he loves to "rock the house" and doesn't have the talent to be an artist. So public speaking is where he gets to do that. You can read an overview here on the Wikipedia article: Tony Robbins.

As to proof, here is one way it is done in Internet marketing: split testing. It is very common to take a sales letter and hook it up with a script that will show one text for a visitor, another for the next visitor, the first for the next visitor, the second for the next visitor, and so on. On the first sales letter you present the normal sales message you wrote. On the second, you sprinkle in some of the NLP embedded commands and strategies. The second almost always performs better in terms of conversions. In fact, this is one of the ways they convince you that this stuff works. You do it yourself.

Anyway, the good folks in the peanut gallery are correct. This belongs on another thread. If I get time later, I will open one. (Or someone else is free to.)

Back to great books...

Michael

[Philip Coates]

> Thank you posting monitor.

Adam, try to grow up. It was a legitimate observation - one made by others. Learn to not post snarky, belittling one liners - both you and Brant. You are no longer in eighth grade.

Try to post something on literature, not on Xray or on Phil or people you want to "knife".

Put away the sharp objects and the blood lust and be a better person. Look inside: Do you have some great books or plays or short stories you can discuss more in a couple paragraphs, at least for a post or two?

[9thdoctor]

Does anyone have any comments about James Clavell? Jeffrey Smith’s rather exotic recommendation (post 334) made me think of him, though I haven’t actually read any of his books. I saw Shogun when I was 10, and was totally hooked. Since then I’ve seen Noble House and The Last Valley, both very worthwile. He was a big Rand fan.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dennis,

When I was younger, I read King Rat, Tai-Pan, and Shōgun by Clavell. I loved all three. I didn't manage to get through Noble House, though, because back then I was at a harried time in life and he presented way too many characters in the beginning. I couldn't keep track of them all in my mind.

I never read anything from him since. I need to go back to reading him.

A humorous thing he usually mentioned that has stuck with me over the years was the difference in bathroom habits between cultures in olden times. Apparently the English explorers were pretty nasty and learned basic hygiene from the Orientals. For example, one ship crew member explained to a perplexed younger crew member that the captain had acquired a quirky habit of wiping himself after defecating from the Japanese (if I remember it being in Shōgun correctly) and now demanded his crew do the same. So if the Captain says we wipe, by Jove we wipe! (Or something like that. )

Michael

[Philip Coates]

> I read King Rat, Tai-Pan, and Shōgun by Clavell. I loved all three. [Michael]

Marsha Enright has a very intriguing positive review of him and his books in one of the back issues of TNI. Not quite sure why I haven't read him yet. Probably it's just because I'm an evil person.

[Xray]

If you really believe there are no objective standards - - - then why continue to post at length offering your opinion (which seems to be that it's all subjective anyhow)? Why bother?

Pointing out the fact that there exist no objective standards "out there" to be discovered avoids misunderstanding in communication. It is essenstial to separate facts from attributing personal value to facts.

This does not mean I won't give my personal opinion on e. g. works of literature, explain why I find them appealing (or not), and read about other posters' opinions.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Xray

[9thdoctor]

> I read King Rat, Tai-Pan, and Shōgun by Clavell. I loved all three. [Michael]

Marsha Enright has a very intriguing positive review of him and his books in one of the back issues of TNI. Not quite sure why I haven't read him yet. Probably it's just because I'm an evil person.

Here's a link to the Enright article. Could it be more positive?

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--1916-James_Clavell.aspx

Most of his books are really long, I think that's why I just haven't started one yet. As for Phil's self-diagnosis, I'd say it rings true...

[anonrobt]

> I read King Rat, Tai-Pan, and Shōgun by Clavell. I loved all three. [Michael]

Marsha Enright has a very intriguing positive review of him and his books in one of the back issues of TNI. Not quite sure why I haven't read him yet. Probably it's just because I'm an evil person.

Here's a link to the Enright article. Could it be more positive?

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--1916-James_Clavell.aspx

Most of his books are really long, I think that's why I just haven't started one yet. As for Phil's self-diagnosis, I'd say it rings true...

The books themselves are in effect visualized chess games, which is why their immensity, yet the satisfaction of seeing how the problems get resolved without looking contrived make going thru them satisfying [and they're certainly more enjoyable than the tomes of say Tolstoy]...

[Xray]

Xray:

J. Riggenbach,

Good to see you back. To continue our discussion: if you would be so kind and read posts # 306, # 324 and # 325 here on this thread, I'd be interested in getting a detailed reply.

There are currently other discussions going on here about Atlas Shrugged, so I'm not sure where to continue.

At any rate, you will get links to posts relevant for the discussion, on whatever thread we decide to proceed.

As for your claim of Rand being great "writer", I would like you to illustrate with concrete examples from her work together with explanations. TIA.

Although JR declined to discuss further with me on this thread, and has now left the board, still I would like to address his opinion about Rand being one of the greatest writers of the 20th century (although he did not provide concrete examples to illustrate his point).

I had prepared replies for the discussion which I'd like to post all the same. Maybe JR still reads here and changes his mind to come back; the same goes for Philip Coates whose his knowledge of literature I much appreciate, and I regret he left so abruptly.

I'll take it over to the Ayn Radn's fiction thread though, in order not to scatter the discussion about her novels over too many threads (there is already another one on her heroes).

Philip Coates: Xray, above in #348 I said "the pros and cons of Rand's fiction writing and her novels have now taken on life in the 'hero' thread --- many many posts there"

I meant the Dagny and Hank and the motor thread.

There are great discussions on both the 'motor' and the 'hero' threads, but since the motor thread is in the 'Ayn Rand's fiction' part, to continue it there is good idea imo.

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7712&st=260&p=82890entry82890

Edited November 5, 2009 by Xray

[Wolf DeVoon]

350 posts of crapola, then this:

> Great books. Please.

Have you yourself read any single great novel or play (or even a short story) that has stayed with you across all the years (besides Rand)

Sure.

I, Phoolan Devi (autobiography) unique personal account of a female bandit

The Desire of the Moth (short novels) self-esteem in action

The Trusty Knaves

The Little Sister (crime fiction) surely you know Chandler, right?

The Long Goodbye

The Beautiful and Damned (literary) Scott Fitzgerald

Tender Is The Night

Short Stories

Mars Shall Thunder (sci-fi) humble self

Edited December 10, 2009 by Wolf DeVoon

[anonrobt]

350 posts of crapola, then this:

> Great books. Please.

Have you yourself read any single great novel or play (or even a short story) that has stayed with you across all the years (besides Rand)

Sure.

I, Phoolan Devi (autobiography) unique personal account of a female bandit

The Desire of the Moth (short novels) self-esteem in action

The Trusty Knaves

The Little Sister (crime fiction) surely you know Chandler, right?

The Long Goodbye

The Beautiful and Damned (literary) Scott Fitzgerald

Tender Is The Night

Short Stories

Mars Shall Thunder (sci-fi) humble self

Barry Longyear's Circus World

Eric Frank Russell's The Great Explosion

F Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State

[9thdoctor]

350 posts of crapola, then this:

> Great books. Please.

Have you yourself read any single great novel or play (or even a short story) that has stayed with you across all the years (besides Rand)

My post about Umberto Eco’s Baudolino was #333, so it was crapola? For my reaction I’m torn between and

Now you’re just listing books, not giving the rest of us a clue what you like about them, Phil’s standards are not being met! I need an emoticon of a schoolmarm with a ruler or a cane, but can't find one.

Anyway, enough of the mock scolding, I’ve started Shogun, and its great. I haven’t rewatched the mini-series, but it's clear it was extremely faithful to the book. It's long, but doesn't feel it.

[anonrobt]

350 posts of crapola, then this:

> Great books. Please.

Have you yourself read any single great novel or play (or even a short story) that has stayed with you across all the years (besides Rand)

My post about Umberto Eco’s Baudolino was #333, so it was crapola? For my reaction I’m torn between and

Now you’re just listing books, not giving the rest of us a clue what you like about them, Phil’s standards are not being met! I need an emoticon of a schoolmarm with a ruler or a cane, but can't find one.

Anyway, enough of the mock scolding, I’ve started Shogun, and its great. I haven’t rewatched the mini-series, but it's clear it was extremely faithful to the book. It's long, but doesn't feel it.

Agree about Shogun - indeed, with it starting to have the reader learning some Japanese, wished it had kept with it instead of switching to the English words for both parties...

[9thdoctor]

I’ve dipped back into what’s probably my favourite novel, Foucault’s Pendulum by Umberto Eco, so I thought I’d write something about it for all and sundry. It’s a novel whose character changes with repeat readings, starting as a dense intellectual thriller and morphing into a dark comedy.

To sum up the novel briefly, it’s a false document, written/compiled by Casaubon, which explains what has happened to him and his associates. He’s one of three Milan based book editors who have authored a mock conspiracy theory (The Plan), tying together nearly every occult group you can think of, and now all three are either dead or missing (we never find out what ultimately happened to Casaubon). Among the conspiracy theories they include is the Knights Templar-Mary Magdalene-Holy Grail concoction that became Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code (published 15 years later). The novel’s title refers to the display now housed in the Pantheon in Paris, which demonstrates the rotation of the earth using a pendulum, as designed by Leon Foucault in the 1800’s. According to The Plan, on a certain day/time the pendulum points to the underground source of the telluric currents, a secret, mystical, and powerful energy source, once sought by Hitler among others. The Diabolicals (the moniker here applied to those characters who believe in the occult) demand to be shown how, in the climactic scene in a Paris museum, and won’t accept the explanation that it was all a joke.

Looking the novel again, I’m always impressed by the novel’s structure. The narrative timeline mimics the back and forth movement of a pendulum, starting in the present day (1984), then moving back to 1968, then 1943, and back again repeatedly. Casaubon tells the story in the first person, and interspersed with his narraration are the contents of computer files he found after the disappearance of his older colleague Belbo. There are 120 chapters (the figure ties into numerological speculations presented in the story), each preceded by relevant and often esoteric quotes from various sources, mostly from occult literature, but also writers such as Dante, Swift, and Shakespeare. The overarching theme of the novel is stated this way with a paradoxical twist at the start: “Superstition brings bad luck”. The chapters are also laid out in sections corresponding to the 10 Sephirot (enumerations) of the Kabbalah’s Tree of Life. I believe Ayn Rand once referred to Atlas Shrugged as a “stunt novel” for its impressive plot structure. Eco pulled off an even fancier stunt with Foucault’s Pendulum.

There are extended dialogues explaining the history of groups such as the Rosicrucians and Knights Templar, spelling out where history ends and legend begins. While these dialogues flow naturally, and often are very funny, the book is virtually an encyclopaedia of occult credulity. In his review, Anthony Burgess wrote “The book clearly needs an index”, with Wikipedia, this is now less of a problem (Burgess should talk, A Clockwork Orange needs a decoder ring). Eco manages to tie in autobiographical details, such as a touching scene of the 13 year old Belbo ordered to play trumpet at the funeral of an Italian fascist during WW2. Also, details of the vanity publishing business are exposed, showing how a publisher can be profitable without selling any books (“selling dreams”).

Foucault’s Pendulum has a reputation for being a difficult book, and the first time through took work, but I can’t recommend it enough.

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[9thdoctor]

A great feature of Foucault’s Pendulum, which makes the book such a pleasure to pick up again and skim, after a couple thorough readings mind you, are the hilarious dialogues and set pieces. They are like cadenzas or Jazz riffs that can easily stand alone. Not wanting to retype extended sections, I’ve found a couple great ones on other sites and I’ve cut and pasted them. The first is from one of Belbo’s files, it’s part of the depiction of his love interest (page 214 in my copy):

FILENAME: Pinball

You don't play pinball with just your hands, you play it with the groin too. The pinball problem is not to stop the ball before it's swallowed by the mouth at the bottom, or to kick it back to midfield like a half-back. The problem is to make it stay up where the lighted targets are more numerous and have it bounce from one to another, wandering, confused, delirious, but still a free agent. And you achieve this not by jolting the ball but by transmitting vibrations to the case, the frame, but gently, so the machine won't catch on and say Tilt.

You can only do it with the groin, or with a play of the hips that makes the groin not so much bump, as slither, keeping you on this side of an orgasm. And if the hips move according to nature, it's the buttocks that supply the forward thrust, but gracefully, so that when the thrust reaches the pelvic area, it is softened, as in homeopathy, where the more you shake a solution and the more the drug dissolves in the water added gradually, until the drug has almost entirely disappeared, the more medically effective and potent it is. Thus from the groin an infinitesimal pulse is transmitted to the case, and the machine obeys, the ball moves against nature, against inertia, against gravity, against the laws of dynamics, and against the cleverness of its constructor, who wanted it disobedient. The ball is intoxicated with vis movendi, remaining in play for memorable and immemorial lengths of time.

But a female groin is required, one that interposes no spongy body between the ileum and the machine, and there must be no erectile matter in between, only skin, nerves, padded bone sheathed in a pair of jeans, and a sublimated erotic fury, a sly frigidity, a disinterested adaptability to the partner's response, a taste for arousing desire without suffering the excess of one's own: the Amazon must drive the pinball crazy and savor the thought that she will then abandon it.

…

Hilarious, even bizarre, yet quite erotic.

This next excerpt is the first meeting of the three book editors (page 74), before they start developing “The Plan”. Note the dynamic of intellectual sarcasm and one-upmanship, soon to be directed at mocking occult conspiracies:

"This is Diotallevi,” Belbo said, introducing us.

“Oh, you’re here to look at that Templar thing. Poor man. Listen, Jacopo, I thought of a good one: Urban Planning for Gypsies."

"Great," Belbo said admiringly. "I have one, too: Aztec Equitation."

"Excellent. But would that go with Potio-section or the Adynata?"

"We'll have to see," Belbo said. He rummaged in his drawer and took out some sheets of paper. "Potio-section..." He looked at me, saw my bewilderment. "Potio-section, as everybody knows, of course, is the art of slicing soup. No, no," he said to Diotallevi. "It's not a department, it's a subject, like Mechanical Avunculogratulation or Pylocatabasis. They all fall under the heading of Tetrapyloctomy."

"What's tetra...?" I asked.

"The art of splitting a hair four ways. This is the department of useless techniques. Mechanical Avunculogratulation, for example, is how to build machines for greeting uncles. We're not sure, though, if Pylocatabasis belongs, since it's the art of being saved by a hair. Somehow that doesn't seem completely useless."

"All right, gentlemen," I said, "I give up. What are you two talking about?"

"Well, Diotallevi and I are planning a reform in higher education. A School of Comparative Irrelevance, where useless or impossible courses are given. The school's aim is to turn out scholars capable of endlessly increasing the number of unnecessary subjects."

"And how many departments are there?"

"Four so far, but that may be enough for the whole syllabus. The Tetrapyloctomy department has a preparatory function; its purpose is to inculcate a sense of irrelevance. Another important department is Adynata, or Impossibilia. Like Urban Planning for Gypsies. The essence of the discipline is the comprehension of the underlying reasons for a thing's absurdity. We have courses in Morse syntax, the history of antarctic agriculture, the history of Easter Island painting, contemporary Sumerian literature, Montessori grading, Assyrio-Babylonian philately, the technology of the wheel in pre-Columbian empires, and the phonetics of the silent film."

"How about crowd psychology in the Sahara?"

"Wonderful," Belbo said.

Diotallevi nodded. "You should join us. The kid's got talent, eh, Jacopo?"

"Yes, I saw that right away. Last night he constructed some moronic arguments with great skill. But let's continue. What did we put in the Oxymoronics department? I can't find my notes."

Diotallevi took a slip of paper from his pocket and regarded me with friendly condescension. "In Oxymoronics, as the name implies, what matters is self-contradiction. That's why I think it's the place for Urban Planning for Gypsies."

"No," Belbo said. "Only if it were Nomadic Urban Planning. The Adynata concern empirical impossibilities; Oxymoronics deal with contradictions in terms."

"Maybe. But what courses did we put under Oxymoronics? Oh, yes, here we are: Tradition in Revolution, Democratic Oligarchy, Parmenidean Dynamics, Heraclitean Statics, Spartan Sybaritics, Tautological Dialectics, Boolean Eristic."

I couldn't resist throwing in "How about a Grammar of Solecisms?"

"Excellent!" they both said, making a note.

"One problem," I said.

"What?"

"If the public gets wind of this, people will show up with manuscripts."

…

Nice foreshadowing with the last line. Eco was a long time university philosophy department head, so how much of the above comes from his actual experience is anyone’s guess. Like I wrote earlier, the book is much easier to get through with Wikipedia or Google handy.

[9thdoctor]

As part of the Amazon discussion of Mayhew’s Essays on Atlas Shrugged I contributed the following material about James Joyce and Ulysses.

...

The one misfire is Harry Binswanger's embarrassing (and thankfully brief) piece comparing Atlas Shrugged to James Joyce's Ulysses, naturally to the latter's severe detriment. The attitude and approach of this kind of piece is what still consigns Ayn Rand to an intellectual ghetto.

...

An ARIan(?) named Paul Beaird took issue, to which I replied:

...

Let me suggest that Binswanger’s comments are to Ulysses, what Chambers’s were to Atlas Shrugged.

Joyce’s Ulysses requires effort from the reader, as does Atlas Shrugged (e.g. Galt’s speech). Joyce developed a linguistic eclecticism that many find off putting, and that can be particularly challenging to a reader not familiar with Irish pronunciation and inflection. I suggest you seek out a St. Patrick’s Day (or Bloomsday) public reading, if you’re interested in understanding Joyce’s continuing appeal. It’ll probably be held at a better Irish Pub, so relax, order yourself a Murphy’s, and avoid the shepherd’s pie. Compared to Dostoyevsky (a acknowledged Rand favorite) you’ll find that Joyce’s “sense of life” is positively cheerful.

Finally, without Joyce’s daring meta-narrative and linguistic innovations, would we have Burgess’s A Clockwork Orange, Pynchon’s Gravity’s Rainbow, or even Heinlein’s The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Ulysses is revered not because of some cabal of tenured charlatans, but because of its influence.

[9thdoctor]

New Umberto Eco novel scheduled for October 2010! Woo-hoo!!

http://czechmatediary.com/2010/07/07/umberto-ecos-next-novel-targets-prague/

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Joycing up the conversation without turning it into an Eco chamber

> I suggest you seek out a St. Patrick’s Day (or Bloomsday) public reading, if you’re interested in understanding Joyce’s continuing appeal.

ND, some time ago on this thread? you persuaded me to have a more open mind about giving Eco a change by impressively quoting a long passage from one of his novels which had a lot of literary merit.

While, on the one hand, I tend to dislike modernist literature (excessive hidden meanings, rambling, chinese puzzle wordplay, postmodern 'games'), on the other hand,I tend to disagree with Harry Biinswanger whenever he makes a comment about an esthetic matter.

So I was wondering, if HB is cherry-picking Joyce at his worst, do you have a comparably eloquent passage from Joyce at his -best- in Ulysses?

(I've read most of two things by Joyce so far -Dubliners - and - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and they don't motivate me to read Ulysses at this point.)

[9thdoctor]

So I was wondering, if HB is cherry-picking Joyce at his worst, do you have a comparably eloquent passage from Joyce at his -best- in Ulysses?

“History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake” is the only line that comes to mind off hand. Also the part about the Jews in Ireland from the same section. Why not read some Eco and then check back? I’d recommend The Name of the Rose, Foucault’s Pendulum, or Baudolino way before I’d start suggesting Ulysses.