Great Literature

[Xray]

[JR]:

I can't produce illustrative quotations by Rand - illustrative, that is, of my points about the elements of writing - because I'm on the road and have no access to the relevant books.

Maybe you can produce them later after your return home.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

[JR]:

I can't produce illustrative quotations by Rand - illustrative, that is, of my points about the elements of writing - because I'm on the road and have no access to the relevant books.

Maybe you can produce them later after your return home.

That's what he said. However, he will return day before yesterday, not later.

--Brant

[Xray]

[JR]:

I can't produce illustrative quotations by Rand - illustrative, that is, of my points about the elements of writing - because I'm on the road and have no access to the relevant books.

Maybe you can produce them later after your return home.

That's what he said. However, he will return day before yesterday, not later.

--Brant

"He will return day before yesterday"? Quite an interesting time structure in that sentence of yours. ;)

But leaving aside creative license in verbalizing, it looks like we will have to wait a couple of weeks (see last paragraph # 249).

Sould JR produce the quotes then, I'm looking forward to going trough them in detail.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

It's been too long for me to remember any real details: but I remember my reaction to that particular incident for some reason. So I can't answer it.

You can reread it in chapter V (The Climax of the D'Anconias) - it is on p. 100 in my hardback ed. of AS).

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

I understood your quip making a playful jab at the redundancy of "later" and "after."

But some people don't mind repetitive redundancy that reiterates over and over the same retelling...

Oops. Gotta go...

It's raining wet water outside and I have to close the door.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

It's been too long for me to remember any real details: but I remember my reaction to that particular incident for some reason. So I can't answer it.

You can reread it in chapter V (The Climax of the D'Anconias) - it is on p. 100 in my hardback ed. of AS).

I would have slapped her too because she made a stupid pretense of not being who she was, including stupid. The problem overall is she had to be stupid in many ways in AS to make the plot work, just like Dominique in The Fountainhead.

Of course Frisco had to slap her better than anyone else would have.

Some of the man's characterizations sound like he should be in "the most interesting man in the world" beer commercials.

He is my favorite character in AS, but I rewrote him in my head to exclude some things and add others.

Where in AS is Frisco described as not very good looking? I remember somewhere in there he was described as one didn't think about that one way or the other looking at him--kind of like it was irrelevant. Roark was described as not good looking but "extremely masculine" by a minor character when Dominique expressed the thought he was very good looking.

--Brant

[Xray]

I think the base-line characterization of Francisco is both interesting and completely unreal. To accomplish anything with "effortless amusement" and to do something/anything better than anyone else--what is to be made of that? It's not admirable. What's to admire? To create or accomplish something after a long, difficult and courageous struggle is. But what is a young person to think reading this crap--it's crap all right--and contemplating the life struggles ahead? It's only an inspiration to do nothing. To give up before you get going, really. So I have to agree with Edith Efron that AS should not be read before you're in your 30s. However, I think The Fountainhead is a good go when you are a teen.

--Brant

I've just reread how Ragnar Danneskjöld is described - and no surprise there - of course he is also as impeccably beautiful as Galt and D'Anconia. And from what I recall, Rearden looks perfect too.

About Danneskjöld:

"he had gold hair and a face of such shocking perfection of beauty that she stood still, staring at him, not in admiration, but in simple disbelief. (AS, p. 753)

...

She (Dagny) caught herself in the preposterous feeling that he had no profession at all, because any work seemed too dangerous for this incredible kind of beauty." (AS, 754)

The looks of the heros in AS make me think of male store window mannequins. A bit like Barbie's boyfriend Ken.

The incredibly beautiful Ragar Danneskjöld is married to the incredibly beautiful actress Kay Ludlow.

In short, beautiful people living in the beautiful little Sangri-La called Galt's Gulch. Almost like in the Jehova's witness "Awake"/"Watchtower" booklets where they depict those idyllic scenes of paradise on earth, and where Jesus looks like borrowed from a modeling agency.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Where in AS is Frisco described as not very good looking? I remember somewhere in there he was described as one didn't think about that one way or the other looking at him--kind of like it was irrelevant. Roark was described as not good looking but "extremely masculine" by a minor character when Dominique expressed the thought he was very good looking.

--Brant

That had been typo of mine: I had meant to write "Francisco was not only very good-looking" but left out the 'only' and it wrongly said "Francisco was not very good-looking". I corrected the mistake in # 270.

[Dragonfly]

I would have slapped her too because she made a stupid pretense of not being who she was, including stupid. The problem overall is she had to be stupid in many ways in AS to make the plot work, just like Dominique in The Fountainhead.

Violent people, those Objectivists. What was that about "no initiation of force"? Tsk, tsk.

But the next sentences are also revealing:

She felt pleasure from the dull, hot pain in her cheek and from the taste of blood in the corner of her mouth. She felt pleasure in what she suddenly grasped about him, about herself and about his motive.

Kinky, kinky!

[Selene]

I would have slapped her too because she made a stupid pretense of not being who she was, including stupid. The problem overall is she had to be stupid in many ways in AS to make the plot work, just like Dominique in The Fountainhead.

Violent people, those Objectivists. What was that about "no initiation of force"? Tsk, tsk.

But the next sentences are also revealing:

She felt pleasure from the dull, hot pain in her cheek and from the taste of blood in the corner of her mouth. She felt pleasure in what she suddenly grasped about him, about herself and about his motive.

Kinky, kinky!

Wow...Kinky Friedman was in Atlas?

[Selene]

Where in AS is Frisco described as not very good looking? I remember somewhere in there he was described as one didn't think about that one way or the other looking at him--kind of like it was irrelevant. Roark was described as not good looking but "extremely masculine" by a minor character when Dominique expressed the thought he was very good looking.

--Brant

That had been typo of mine: I had meant to write "Francisco was not only very good-looking" but left out the 'only' and it wrongly said "Francisco was not very good-looking". I corrected the mistake in # 270.

Yes and no xray:

"Francisco could do anything he undertook, he could do it better than anyone else, and without effort." (AS, p. 94)

Francisco is not very good-looking, but "Francisco could do anything he undertook, he could do it better than anyone else, and without effort .". (AS, p. 94)

Either way you are quite slipshod in your quoting, sourcing and miss use or lack of use of "ellipses":

Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission") is a mark or series of marks that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word or a phrase from the original text. An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought, or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis) (apostrophe and elipsis mixed).

The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three periods or full stops (...) or pre-composed triple-dot glyph (…). The usage of the em dash (—) can overlap the usage of ellipsis.

The Chicago Manual of Style suggests the use of an ellipsis for any omitted word, phrase, line, or paragraph from within a quoted passage. There are two commonly used methods of using ellipsis: one uses three dots for any omission, while the second makes a distinction between omissions within a sentence (using three dots: . . .) and omissions between sentences (using a period and a space followed by three dots: . ...). An ellipsis at the end of a sentence with no sentence following should be followed by a period (for a total of four dots). The Modern Language Association (MLA) however, used to indicate that an ellipsis must include spaces before and after each dot in all uses. If an ellipsis is meant to represent an omission, square brackets must surround the ellipsis to make it clear that there was no pause in the original quote: [ . . . ]. Currently, the MLA has removed the requirement of brackets in their style handbooks. However, the use of brackets is still correct as it clears confusion.^[1]

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Where in AS is Frisco described as not very good looking? I remember somewhere in there he was described as one didn't think about that one way or the other looking at him--kind of like it was irrelevant. Roark was described as not good looking but "extremely masculine" by a minor character when Dominique expressed the thought he was very good looking.

--Brant

That had been typo of mine: I had meant to write "Francisco was not only very good-looking" but left out the 'only' and it wrongly said "Francisco was not very good-looking". I corrected the mistake in # 270.

Where in AS was he described as "very good looking"? I'm not saying he wasn't, just that it doesn't seem right.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

I would have slapped her too because she made a stupid pretense of not being who she was, including stupid. The problem overall is she had to be stupid in many ways in AS to make the plot work, just like Dominique in The Fountainhead.

Violent people, those Objectivists. What was that about "no initiation of force"? Tsk, tsk.

But the next sentences are also revealing:

She felt pleasure from the dull, hot pain in her cheek and from the taste of blood in the corner of her mouth. She felt pleasure in what she suddenly grasped about him, about herself and about his motive.

Kinky, kinky!

Yeah. I would have had her in the woods too. Even if I were 26 and she 16. Lindsay Perigo: "Pedo! Pedo! Pedo!"

--Brant

[Xray]

Where in AS is Frisco described as not very good looking? I remember somewhere in there he was described as one didn't think about that one way or the other looking at him--kind of like it was irrelevant. Roark was described as not good looking but "extremely masculine" by a minor character when Dominique expressed the thought he was very good looking.

--Brant

That had been typo of mine: I had meant to write "Francisco was not only very good-looking" but left out the 'only' and it wrongly said "Francisco was not very good-looking". I corrected the mistake in # 270.

Yes and no xray:

"Francisco could do anything he undertook, he could do it better than anyone else, and without effort." (AS, p. 94)

Francisco is not very good-looking, but "Francisco could do anything he undertook, he could do it better than anyone else, and without effort .". (AS, p. 94)

Either way you are quite slipshod in your quoting, sourcing and miss use or lack of use of "ellipses":

Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission") is a mark or series of marks that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word or a phrase from the original text. An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought, or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis) (apostrophe and elipsis mixed).

The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three periods or full stops (...) or pre-composed triple-dot glyph (…). The usage of the em dash (—) can overlap the usage of ellipsis.

The Chicago Manual of Style suggests the use of an ellipsis for any omitted word, phrase, line, or paragraph from within a quoted passage. There are two commonly used methods of using ellipsis: one uses three dots for any omission, while the second makes a distinction between omissions within a sentence (using three dots: . . .) and omissions between sentences (using a period and a space followed by three dots: . ...). An ellipsis at the end of a sentence with no sentence following should be followed by a period (for a total of four dots). The Modern Language Association (MLA) however, used to indicate that an ellipsis must include spaces before and after each dot in all uses. If an ellipsis is meant to represent an omission, square brackets must surround the ellipsis to make it clear that there was no pause in the original quote: [ . . . ]. Currently, the MLA has removed the requirement of brackets in their style handbooks. However, the use of brackets is still correct as it clears confusion.^[1]

Adam

Again: it was simple mistake on my part based on sloppy typing; no stylistic license or anything. Is that so hard to grasp? Read my # 269 and # 270 post with the correction. What's so difficult to understand about an accidental omission of a word?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

I would have slapped her too because she made a stupid pretense of not being who she was, including stupid. The problem overall is she had to be stupid in many ways in AS to make the plot work, just like Dominique in The Fountainhead.

Violent people, those Objectivists. What was that about "no initiation of force"? Tsk, tsk.

Instead one sees advocating initiation of force, both by Rand and her followers. Quite ironic.

DF: But the next sentences are also revealing:

She felt pleasure from the dull, hot pain in her cheek and from the taste of blood in the corner of her mouth. She felt pleasure in what she suddenly grasped about him, about herself and about his motive.

Kinky, kinky!

Kinky indeed. And that is by no means the only scene in AS (as well as in The Fountainhead) having a sadomasochistic note.

To her readers, Rand presented as role models the characters who illustrated her personal preferences, speaking e. g. of Roark that he was "as man should be".

The pattern is always the same: that others "ought to" value what she subjectively preferred. Her values were "rational", and arguments opposing her view were labeled as "irrational".

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

I would have slapped her too because she made a stupid pretense of not being who she was, including stupid. The problem overall is she had to be stupid in many ways in AS to make the plot work, just like Dominique in The Fountainhead.

Violent people, those Objectivists. What was that about "no initiation of force"? Tsk, tsk.

Instead one sees advocating initiation of force, both by Rand and her followers. Quite ironic.

DF: But the next sentences are also revealing:

She felt pleasure from the dull, hot pain in her cheek and from the taste of blood in the corner of her mouth. She felt pleasure in what she suddenly grasped about him, about herself and about his motive.

Kinky, kinky!

Kinky indeed. And that is by no means the only scene in AS (as well as in The Fountainhead) having a sadomasochistic note.

Like so often, Rand made the mistake of presenting her personal preferences as a standard for others, speaking e. g. of Roark that he was "as man should be".

The "She felt pleasure from the ..." wasn't from me. Just in case anyone might think so.

Slappin Dagny: "Love is exception making." Slap, slap. Wait 'til we get to the spanking! Whapo, whapo! "Now what, Dag?"

--Brant

[Xray]

Where in AS was he described as "very good looking"? I'm not saying he wasn't, just that it doesn't seem right.

These may not be the exact words, but IIRC, he is described as being very attractive. I'll see if I can find quotes.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

Where in AS was he described as "very good looking"? I'm not saying he wasn't, just that it doesn't seem right.

These may not be the exact words, but IIRC, he is described as being very attractive. I'll see if I can find quotes.

"Very attractive" doesn't sound right either.

--Brant

[Xray]

"Very attractive" doesn't sound right either.

But the message conveyed in AS is that he was exactly that.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

"Very attractive" doesn't sound right either.

But the message conveyed in AS is that he was exactly that.

To different people for different reasons at different times. We are talking about how he was described by the author. His actual physical looks.

--Brant

[Philip Coates]

The Nobel Prize in Literature has just been announced.

Question and Predictions:

1) Are the Nobel Prizes in Literature politicized?

2) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Prize in Literature? [for one or more of her novels]

3) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Peace Prize? [for having laid the lasting philosophical foundations for a peaceful and just world]

A particular year or 'never' would be an acceptable answer to number two or three.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Philip Coates

[Selene]

The Nobel Prize in Literature has just been announced.

Question and Predictions:

1) Are the Nobel Prizes in Literature politicized?

2) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Prize in Literature? [for one or more of her novels]

3) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Peace Prize? [for having laid the lasting philosophical foundations for a peaceful and just world]

A particular year or 'never' would be an acceptable answer to number two or three.

Yes

Never

Never

[jeffrey smith]

The Nobel Prize in Literature has just been announced.

Question and Predictions:

1) Are the Nobel Prizes in Literature politicized?

2) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Prize in Literature? [for one or more of her novels]

3) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Peace Prize? [for having laid the lasting philosophical foundations for a peaceful and just world]

A particular year or 'never' would be an acceptable answer to number two or three.

As Adam said:

Yes

Never

Never

But it was my understanding that the Nobel Prizes are awarded only to living people.

[anonrobt]

The Nobel Prize in Literature has just been announced.

Question and Predictions:

1) Are the Nobel Prizes in Literature politicized?

2) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Prize in Literature? [for one or more of her novels]

3) In what year will Ayn Rand win the Nobel Peace Prize? [for having laid the lasting philosophical foundations for a peaceful and just world]

A particular year or 'never' would be an acceptable answer to number two or three.

As Adam said:

Yes

Never

Never

But it was my understanding that the Nobel Prizes are awarded only to living people.

Yes - precisely...

[Philip Coates]

> But it was my understanding that the Nobel Prizes are awarded only to living people. [Adam]

That would be unfair and would make no sense. Someone does something great in old age and dies the year after? Do you have any hard proof of this?