Sleeping with a girl your friend has a crush on

[yunger80gmail]

I have been thinking about this issue for a long time now, but still haven't been able to come to a conclusion. Please help me shed some light on it!

The question is: Is it morally right or wrong to have sex with a girl that your friend is in love with, even though it would hurt him a lot? We will assume that this girl doesn't mean anything for you. She is just some girl you can have sex with for pleasure, but nothing else.

I am having difficulties coming to a conclusion on this because:

- On one hand, my friend does not have any "right" to stop me from sleeping with this girl. She has her own will, and I have my own will, and we are allowed to do anything we want as long as it doesn't obstruct my friend's rights in any way, which this doesn't. I have no obligation whatsoever to stop myself from achieving happiness, just because he happens to be in love with this particular girl. Simply put, that is not his decision to make and he has nothing to say in the matter.

- On the other hand, my friend can't really "choose" to not get hurt - it is an automatic process, hardwired in his brain. If I sleep with her, he will be in pain, as simple as that. So I am actually directly causing him pain by sleeping with her, and he can't do anything about it. It has nothing to do with values, it is just directly hardwired in the brain, and I completely understand the pain he will go through.

I really need to solve this issue and come to a conclusion, because this is something that has come up in the past, and will most likely come up again, and it just paralyzes me - I don't know what I should do!

[Selene]

yunger:

No one can make that decision except you and the girl.

My question to you is, does the girl allow your friend to be in love with her?

In other words, is she encouraging him?

Adam

Post script: Welcome to OL. Are you a student, worker or businessperson?

Secondly, how did you come to reading Ayn and to this particular forum?

[yunger80gmail]

yunger:

No one can make that decision except you and the girl.

My question to you is, does the girl allow your friend to be in love with her?

In other words, is she encouraging him?

Adam

Post script: Welcome to OL. Are you a student, worker or businessperson?

Secondly, how did you come to reading Ayn and to this particular forum?

First, to answer your post script questions:

- I am a businessperson. I sell a software solution that helps large organizations reduce IT costs and reduce printing waste.

- I started reading Ayn Rand because of personal curiosity, looking around, and finally finding Ayn's books. This forum, I found by searching for an objectivism-related forum on Google.

Now, to the issue at hand:

- Yes, I agree that it is my decision to make. I am aware that I am not obliged in any way to avoid sleeping with this girl, my friend has no claims to make in the matter. But I have not been able to decide what I think is the right action for me to do in this matter. I want to sleep with the girl - it would give me pleasure and happiness. But, at the same time, my friend will resent me if I sleep with the girl - not because he has wrong values or anything like that, but simply because after all, he is a human, and it is not easy to keep a clear head when you are in love.

So that's why I am confused..

(P.S. This is not related to any specific case, it is a general question, so I can't answer your question about how the girl is acting. Plus, I don't really see how that would change the answer - this is about how I will act, not about how she acts.)

[Selene]

yunger:

No one can make that decision except you and the girl.

My question to you is, does the girl allow your friend to be in love with her?

In other words, is she encouraging him?

Adam

Post script: Welcome to OL. Are you a student, worker or businessperson?

Secondly, how did you come to reading Ayn and to this particular forum?

First, to answer your post script questions:

- I am a businessperson. I sell a software solution that helps large organizations reduce IT costs and reduce printing waste.

- I started reading Ayn Rand because of personal curiosity, looking around, and finally finding Ayn's books. This forum, I found by searching for an objectivism-related forum on Google.

Now, to the issue at hand:

- Yes, I agree that it is my decision to make. I am aware that I am not obliged in any way to avoid sleeping with this girl, my friend has no claims to make in the matter. But I have not been able to decide what I think is the right action for me to do in this matter. I want to sleep with the girl - it would give me pleasure and happiness. But, at the same time, my friend will resent me if I sleep with the girl - not because he has wrong values or anything like that, but simply because after all, he is a human, and it is not easy to keep a clear head when you are in love.

So that's why I am confused..

(P.S. This is not related to any specific case, it is a general question, so I can't answer your question about how the girl is acting. Plus, I don't really see how that would change the answer - this is about how I will act, not about how she acts.)

Yunger:

Excellent.

My reason for asking you about the "girl" is that it would effect how I would act. I can only share with you how I would act and why. Clearly, you would evaluate my logic, or rationale for my choice, and then chose to incorporate it in your personal decision.

The "girl" and her values are what matter to me. If she was to be such a shallow person to be misleading my friend and be willing, while misleading my friend, to fuck me, I would want no part of her.

Now, if she is a redhead with a great ass, my gonads might get the best of me, but I have a pretty high level of resistance to that irrational impulse.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Screw the slut.

Tell your "friend."

--Brant

I'm sure he can do better

[9thdoctor]

Try thinking of it like a chess game, if you make a move you should be able to predict what the board will look like for the next couple moves afterward. If you’re certain to lose a friend you value highly, and the sex is not so important to you, the answer is obvious. Only you know the relative weighting of these values, but generally one doesn’t trade a queen for a pawn.

On the other hand, from my experience if the lady wants to get you into bed, and she’s attractive enough, she’s going to make it happen. And hurting your friend and messing up your friendship with him will serve to feed her narcissism. So good luck to you.

(Note from MSK: Image removed due to SEO and other factors, but link to hilarious image preserved. Meme image: Horny - When you forget about standards... just this one time)

 

[yunger80gmail]

Selene and Brant:

Thanks for the answers guys, but I am still not satisfied.

Could you kindly tell me why you would you as you do? If you do not tell me the reasons you think as you do, then it will not really add any more understanding for me, since this is not a voting-competition, but what I am looking for is either new angles that I haven't thought of, or if you see flaws in my logic that will make this issue more clear for me.

Because obviously, the two factors pro and against that I described in my original post, are contradictory to each other. So I must be missing something. This is why I am so confused... I would be kind of paralyzed and powerless if that situation occured again, so I would really appreciate some new perspective on this. What do you think is morally right in this situation, and why?

Ninth Doctor:

Thanks you too for the answer, but I'm sorry to say, it still doesn't answer my question.. You see, I am not looking for the action that will bring me most benefit in this specific issue. If it was that easy, it wouldn't have been an issue at all.

What I am looking for is a moral justification for my actions. Is it RIGHT for me to fuck the girl, even though I am hurting my friend?

Whether or not I am loosing his friendship is not something I would consider. That is a consequence of my friend's moral values, and it is not something I am willing to bend over for or even consider. I want to find MY moral values, and that is what I am looking for here.

(LOL to the pic by the way)

Edited November 30, 2009 by yunger80gmail

[Selene]

Yunger:

I am not a proponent of sacrificing my skills for a piece of pussy.

It is that simple to me. I have very high standards as to what I desire in a woman. Brains, Kegels and a sense of humor. The rest is just packaging.

I do not sleep around! And I always keep an open mind!

[tjohnson]

She is just some girl you can have sex with for pleasure, but nothing else.

Why not just masturbate then? Do you think girls are objects to give you pleasure or what?

[9thdoctor]

What I am looking for is a moral justification for my actions. Is it RIGHT for me to fuck the girl, even though I am hurting my friend?

Whether or not I am loosing his friendship is not something I would consider. That is a consequence of my friend's moral values, and it is not something I am willing to bend over for or even consider. I want to find MY moral values, and that is what I am looking for here.

“Value” is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The concept “value” is not a primary; it presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what? It presupposes an entity capable of acting to achieve a goal in the face of an alternative. Where no alternative exists, no goals and no values are possible.

Ayn Rand, The Objectivist Ethics

As I see it, your stand to lose a value, this friendship (maybe, and FWIW to you), in exchange for a roll in the hay (another value, however passing) that may develop into something more (seems not).

You’ve already established that you lack pretensions of being a Preux Chevalier, yet you seem to be looking for a principle beyond simple weighing of values and risks. Your friend’s called “shotgun” but had no right to. Hate to cop out on you, but as Joseph Campbell said, Follow your bliss…

Edited November 30, 2009 by Ninth Doctor

[Christopher]

Morality is about both human rights and about human relationships, so I wouldn't bother with the morality angle here. It really depends on your moral system and/or integration of different moral systems.

On a personal note, I've been on both sides of the conflict. When I was on your end, I believed it was alright to be with the girl even though my friend loved her. Why? Because we were authentically interested in each other, not just for a fling but deeper. It wouldn't be fair or right to sacrifice my and her love for his dream of love. Of course, I didn't handle the relationship with him very well, and our friendship ended. However, I believe had I explained the situation with him after the fact, explained that I valued him but that the girl and I both had authentic feelings, then I believe I could have saved the friendship. Talking is always a good thing.

When I've been on the other end after a hard breakup, I was upset at my friend because he and she had a fling even though he could see I was distraught and heartbroken. I should have ended the relationship with him at that point since I could see he had no concept of my emotions,.. but teenage lesson learned. If he authentically had feelings for her and her for him (it was also a fling for her), then I would have understood it better.

Basically, if you go with her, you probably should take the time to explain to your friend why you did it. The reason behind why you did it will emphasize your commitment to your relationship with him, and his acceptance of your feelings will emphasize his commitment to the relationship with you. If you did it for a fling, well that seems to reflect that your impulses are more important than your feelings for him. I would leave the relationship at this point if I were him. On the flip side, if you did it because of authentic intimacy and he didn't understand that, then you have no need of a friend who isn't in support of you.

[sbeaulieu]

I'm inclined to go with Chris on this one.

If you value the romp more than your friend, go for the romp.

If you value your friend more than the romp, skip the romp.

If you're twisted up inside because it's something you wouldn't like to pass up, talk it over with your friend and gauge his feelings. This would allow you to cover both bases.

As Chris pointed out, communication is key.

~ Shane

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Shane,

I just saw this and I was getting ready to say something similar to what you just did in just as objective a manner.

Yunger,

A warm welcome to OL.

First things, first. There is no moral rule to follow for something like this. And even if there were, from what I have lived—unrepentantly, I might add—I know I would be among the lost souls of humanity.

In moral terms (i.e., values), it is obvious that you have to choose what you weigh according to how you weigh. Barring successful communication, you can't have both the romp and the friend. That's just life. Sometimes we can't have all the candy in the store. So, to answer your question, it depends on which is more important to you. The girl or the friend.

There's a saying that's almost a platitude, but I really like it because I have found it to be true in my experience: You usually get what you want in life, so you have to be really careful about what you want.

And everything in human affairs comes with a price of some sort.

Everything.

I often wish it were not that way, but it is.

Oh yeah... I almost forgot the negative side. There is another standard I believe is important. Who is more bats, the girl or the friend? I, personally, would go with the less neurotic. I learned the hard way (more than once) the folly of sleeping with a woman crazier than I am. (Difficult to fathom, I know, but they do exist. ) She will take you down... And a neurotic friend will suck the joy of living right out of you over time.

I do hope, in your case, both are beautiful people, though.

I don't know if that helps, but that's the best I can do...

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Friends don't fuck over their friends. If love was involved then you'd talk it out.

--Brant

[Selene]

Friends don't fuck over their friends. If love was involved then you'd talk it out.

--Brant

Brant:

Exactly.

It is really simple when you face the reality of the choices that you chose to make.

I often think folks abuse the meaning or definition of the concept "friend". My Dad wisely sad that if you could truly count your "friends" on more than one hand, you probably need to re-define what you mean by the word "friend". He extended it to two hands as he hit his 60's.

What say yea?

Adam

Edited December 1, 2009 by Selene

[yunger80gmail]

Thanks for the answers guys. You all have very important points, in my opinion, but this is a difficult issue and I'm still not satisfied with the explanations. Let me explain why.

But before I do, let me just say that there is also a flipside to this, and I'm trying to solve that at the same time. The flipside is that I could be the one in love and getting hurt (and it has happened in the past). If my friend slept with a girl that I was in love with, could I justify my anger or would I do better in repressing my feelings, thinking that it is his right to do whatever he wants, without considering my irrational whims? To be honest, right now I am inclined to go with the latter.

Because isn't that feeling of "ownership" you have with a girl that you are in love with, really an irrational whim? If you can't have the girl (cause if she chooses to sleep with your friend, then obviously you are fooling yourself if you think you can have her), then what kind of right do you have to demand that other people don't have her (no matter what they "have her" for, be it just sex or true love)?

I think it is important to define these things before they actually happen, before you are actually caught up in the situation, because if you don't, then you will be at loss and act irrationally when the situation actually does occur. And judging from the fact that it has happened several times before in my life (at which times I was actually at loss and acted on the feelings I had in the moment without knowing if I was doing the right thing), I am sure it will happen again.

Let's put this another way. Why is that feeling of "crush" more important than, say, the feeling of jealousy that a person has when you are competing for the same job and he looses? I am sure you would not argue that you should consider your friends emotions if you are competing for the same job as him. So why should you consider his feelings when you are competing for the same girl? Or rather, why is it ok to compete for a job, but not ok to compete for a girl? Me, I don't really see any difference - both feelings of jealousy are irrational, and in neither of the cases does he have any right to ask you to hold yourself back.

[tjohnson]

I'm more interested in why you take sleeping around so lightly. Promiscuity is a sign of emotional immaturity.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Yunger,

It sounds like you want a way to make emotions involving relationships rational in a manner that they can be negotiated without pain.

The human being is not built like that. You have to make allowances for pain, not blot it out with negotiation.

If you are truly interested in how to control this stuff, I believe the best path is to study human nature in general, doing what I call the cognitive to normative sequence. In other words, you first identify what people are. Then you ask why and measure.

You actually started doing this by noticing that jealousy plays a strong role in relationships, but not in job hunting. Then wondering why. (As an aside, depending on your friend and the situation, you will see jealousy's cousin, envy, very often in competitive job situations, with accusations of betrayal and the whole 9 yards.) That's just the start, though. The waters of the human psyche run deep.

Rational volition is an extremely important part of human nature. Rand's glory is the way she valued this and provided a moral sanction for it. But we do have emotions and those emotions have a specific nature. We can control and program some of them, but we also come prewired with a lot of baggage waaaaay before our rational volition develops from our infancy.

We are rational animals, but we are animals before we are rational, not after.

Ayn Rand tried to ignore the prewired stuff and command her own relationship emotions in a ham-handed manner using only rational thought. Then she tried to do the same with others. She even had a beautiful vision she tried to impose on her own emotional reality and that of others. But reality will not be ignored with impunity. She got hurt terribly and she hurt others.

I believe Rand is a great inspiration for many things in life, but not in how to manage your love life.

Michael

[anthony]

My first consideration, Yunger, was to go with the higher and long-term value in this dilemma - as is the Objectivist requisite.

If you have serious intentions to develop a long-term relationship with the girl, then the friend takes a back seat;

If this could be no more than a one-off with her, then a good friendship wins out.

However, my feeling is growing that you don't care for or value either of them much. I believe that in friendship at least, there can be no sacrifice or contradiction, as I see it as another example of the benevolent trader principle - your gain, is my gain.

So get rid of them both.

(Just testing...)

Tony

[Xray]

What I am looking for is a moral justification for my actions. Is it RIGHT for me to fuck the girl, even though I am hurting my friend?

Since there is no "morally right" by any objective standards, all you are going to get here is people offering their personal opinions, usually reflecting the subjective ethical standards they have. A scope of opinions from several people can be interesting in helping you to become aware of the complexity of a question.

But asking others for either a green light or a stop sign ("Is it okay/ not okay if I do this?") is in fact delegating the responsibility for your actions to others instead of assuming it yourself.

On the other hand, my friend can't really "choose" to not get hurt - it is an automatic process, hardwired in his brain. If I sleep with her, he will be in pain, as simple as that. So I am actually directly causing him pain by sleeping with her, and he can't do anything about it. It has nothing to do with values, it is just directly hardwired in the brain, and I completely understand the pain he will go through.

It does have to do with values. If he loves the girl, he will value her. I assume he will also consider it a value not to be cheated on.

I think it is important to define these things before they actually happen, before you are actually caught up in the situation, because if you don't, then you will be at loss and act irrationally when the situation actually does occur.

So you are presently not in such situation and just want to mentally exercise this through?

That explain why you did not say one word about whether "the girl" is interested in you at all. You merely decribed her as "just some girl you can have sex with for pleasure, but nothing else". Later it became, "I want to sleep with the girl - it would give me pleasure and happiness.", which sounds a bit less vague, but if you are merely playing this through in your mind, it is of course not possible to be concrete in terms of an specific individua.l

Because isn't that feeling of "ownership" you have with a girl that you are in love with, really an irrational whim?

Oh, Rand's heros always claim "ownership" of the females they desire, don't they.

For her non-heros to have that feeling, she would probably have called it "irrational whim" ...

But seriously: again, looking for "What would Ayn Rand allow/not allow" is the same as pointed out above: leaving it to others to decide for you.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

Ah Ms. Xray:

Slipping in this conditioning statement.

"Since there is no "morally right" by any objective standards..."

Yes there are. Your statement is an incorrect generalization based on the subjective reality you appear to occupy.

Yunger, I would highly recommend that you strike Ms. Xray's post from your consideration.

Ms. Xray is essentially anti male and an exponent of the demasculinization of society by a plethora of confused marxist concepts based in the European system of what they

are peddling as "education".

You have been warned!

Adam

At least if you are here and you have made a choice based on morality, you know it was worth fighting for!

[yunger80gmail]

I'm more interested in why you take sleeping around so lightly. Promiscuity is a sign of emotional immaturity.

I take sleeping around lightly, yes, at least in some cases. And in some cases not. It all depends on the situation. Feel free to explain your point if you want, but in another thread please.

[Selene]

I'm more interested in why you take sleeping around so lightly. Promiscuity is a sign of emotional immaturity.

I take sleeping around lightly, yes, at least in some cases. And in some cases not. It all depends on the situation. Feel free to explain your point if you want, but in another thread please.

So is making diagnoses from Canada I would think.

Adam

[yunger80gmail]

Yunger,

It sounds like you want a way to make emotions involving relationships rational in a manner that they can be negotiated without pain.

The human being is not built like that. You have to make allowances for pain, not blot it out with negotiation.

First, thanks for your answer Michael. Regarding the above, I fully agree with you. However, there is a difference in feeling pain, and allowing it to affect your judgement. If I let my pain affect my judgement all the time, I would become unfriendly with any person who stirred up any kind of negative emotion in me. Jealousy is one of those emotions. I am not saying that I will block the pain - I am just discussing whether or not I will let that pain affect my moral judgement in that situation.

If you are truly interested in how to control this stuff, I believe the best path is to study human nature in general, doing what I call the cognitive to normative sequence. In other words, you first identify what people are. Then you ask why and measure.

You actually started doing this by noticing that jealousy plays a strong role in relationships, but not in job hunting. Then wondering why. (As an aside, depending on your friend and the situation, you will see jealousy's cousin, envy, very often in competitive job situations, with accusations of betrayal and the whole 9 yards.) That's just the start, though. The waters of the human psyche run deep.

Ok, I misformulated myself. I will rephrase my question: Why is that feeling of jealousy you feel when someone sleeps with a girl you wanted, more important than the feeling of envy that you get when someone gets a job you wanted? Why is that feeling of jealousy justified, and taken into consideration when making the choice, while the feeling of envy isn't? Honestly, I do not see any difference. They are both hardwired. If I should take into consideration that my friend gets "jealous" and "hurt" when I sleep with a certain girl, then I should also, for the same reasons, take into consideration that he feels "envious" and "angry" when I get a certain job.

This is what makes this question so difficult. But I think that I am coming to the conclusion now. I think that it is right to sleep with the girl, but at the same time also to tell my friend that although I understand that this is painful for him, he has to accept that this is the way it is, and that he has no right to make me feel guilty for sleeping with the girl for my own pleasure. Because it is a choice made by the girl, and me, together, and not his choice to make.

Rational volition is an extremely important part of human nature. Rand's glory is the way she valued this and provided a moral sanction for it. But we do have emotions and those emotions have a specific nature. We can control and program some of them, but we also come prewired with a lot of baggage waaaaay before our rational volition develops from our infancy.

We are rational animals, but we are animals before we are rational, not after.

Ayn Rand tried to ignore the prewired stuff and command her own relationship emotions in a ham-handed manner using only rational thought. Then she tried to do the same with others. She even had a beautiful vision she tried to impose on her own emotional reality and that of others. But reality will not be ignored with impunity. She got hurt terribly and she hurt others.

I believe Rand is a great inspiration for many things in life, but not in how to manage your love life.

I agree with this. I don't agree with a lot of the things Ayn said. The main things being the psychological interpretations she made. A lot of our psychology is separated from our morality - we come pre-wired, as you say.

But it still does not affect whether or not I should sleep with the girl. Because even though I may feel like someone is stepping on my toes for sleeping with the girl I am in love with, the fact is still that I don't have any kind of right to judge that person for doing so. He, even if he is my friend, does not have any obligation to sacrify his own happiness for mine. If it makes him happy to sleep with that girl - so be it. I won't try to stop him. And he shouldn't try to stop me or judge me, either. As long as the choices we make are consensual, and not violating anyone's rights, then that's the way it is. No matter what we may feel in the moment.

(But, as I said, with a big dose of diplomacy, to prevent the bad feelings from taking over completely.)

I must also add this little paragraph: There is one situation where I would not sleep with the girl. And that is, if I value my friend's happiness as highly as my own happiness. So if I would, for example, feel happy because my friend feels relieved, or not in pain, then I would not sleep with the girl. But that is not what I am discussing here. I am discussing whether or not I am making any moral "wrong" by sleeping with the girl. And my conclusion is no.

Edited December 2, 2009 by yunger80gmail

[yunger80gmail]

My first consideration, Yunger, was to go with the higher and long-term value in this dilemma - as is the Objectivist requisite.

If you have serious intentions to develop a long-term relationship with the girl, then the friend takes a back seat;

If this could be no more than a one-off with her, then a good friendship wins out.

However, my feeling is growing that you don't care for or value either of them much. I believe that in friendship at least, there can be no sacrifice or contradiction, as I see it as another example of the benevolent trader principle - your gain, is my gain.

So get rid of them both.

(Just testing...)

Tony

Yes, Tony, you are probably right. If a person was really my friend, maybe I would not WANT to sleep with the girl, simply because I would become unhappy just from the fact that my friend is unhappy.

But, as I wrote in my previous post, this is not the issue I am trying to understand. I am simply trying to understand if it is in any way morally "wrong" to cause my friend pain in this situation. And my answer is, no, it isn't. (But, as I said, if it is truly a friend, and someone I value, I simply may not WANT to cause him pain, because that would make me unhappy as well. And in that case, I would not sleep with the girl.)