Disgusting - School kids taught to praise Obama

[Brant Gaede]

Pledging allegiance to the flag of the greatest country in the history of man . . .

This is too comical for words.

JR

Jeff:

Easy to laugh when you live in a semi free country, but that is why we are the greatest, we don't deport people, even ignorant ones.

And yes, I know you are going to make your testimonial based arguments, but what about this one and what about that one ...enjoy.

Adam

libertarian and I actually know what it means

WTF, Adam? "We don't deport people..."? My late step-mother was an immigration judge. She ordered people deported--or not. Did I miss part of this conversation?

Using one metric, the Roman Empire was ruled by the "greatest country in the world." How long was it around? 1000 years? The Empire itself for 2000. Maybe ancient Egypt?

The greatness of the US evaporated in the late 18th Century with sedition laws, the Whiskey Rebellion and the Constitutional Convention. The early to middle 19th was notable for the stupid War of 1812, the Indian Wars, The Mexican War and the War between the States. Lots of great people but they've been mostly ruled by various thugs of various stinks and hues. Power lust, venality, mendacity, ignorance and stupidity. After the Founding Fathers it's been hard to find a real brain in the house. Now our government is doing or trying to do to most of us what it has always done to the American Indian and Americans are going to end up generally drunk and impoverished on the reservation some worshipping their lost culture but not living it.

--Brant

Edited September 25, 2009 by Brant Gaede

[Selene]

Brant:

It was a comparative statement to the other empires in world history and within that comparison, the unique and revolutionary concept of individual rights, separation of powers and a negative Bill of Rights, 4 years after the Constitution was ratified I believe.

As to the "deportation" statement, I was alluding to the fact that we are not going to deport an American citizen for making foolish statements and arguments.

I should have been more clear.

Adam

[sbeaulieu]

I agree with disgusting, Michael. With my kids in the Hawaii public school system, I hope I don't catch wind of them trying this brainwash tactic on my two kids. I'll get very vocal, quick!

~ Shane

[DavidMcK]

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by the Christian Socialist Bellamy; it shows the altruistic/collectivist/faith axis more than anything else, especially after the words 'under God' were added.

[jeffrey smith]

Brant:

It was a comparative statement to the other empires in world history and within that comparison, the unique and revolutionary concept of individual rights, separation of powers and a negative Bill of Rights, 4 years after the Constitution was ratified I believe.

As to the "deportation" statement, I was alluding to the fact that we are not going to deport an American citizen for making foolish statements and arguments.

I should have been more clear.

Adam

I've bolded one phrase in your post because it raises one question which is relevant to this discussion:

Should there even be an American "empire"?

And frankly, except for the British Empire of the 19th century, are "other empires" the sort of thing we want America to be thought of as being in company with?

[Christopher]

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by the Christian Socialist Bellamy; it shows the altruistic/collectivist/faith axis more than anything else, especially after the words 'under God' were added.

Other than the "under God" quote, it really has very little to do with altruism/collectivism/faith regardless of what the writers' intentions were.

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic

for which it stands,

one Nation under God,

indivisible,

with liberty and justice for all.

Now if you disagree with this pledge, I will have to ask the government to deport you. Also might as well throw out MSK for posting anti-Obama stuff. Hrmm, who else might be anti-government in this forum that we could deport...?

[Selene]

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by the Christian Socialist Bellamy; it shows the altruistic/collectivist/faith axis more than anything else, especially after the words 'under God' were added.

Other than the "under God" quote, it really has very little to do with altruism/collectivism/faith regardless of what the writers' intentions were.

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic

for which it stands,

one Nation under God,

indivisible,

with liberty and justice for all.

Now if you disagree with this pledge, I will have to ask the government to deport you. Also might as well throw out MSK for posting anti-Obama stuff. Hrmm, who else might be anti-government in this forum that we could deport...?

"I am Spartacus!" I volunteer.

[BaalChatzaf]

"I am Spartacus!" I volunteer.

The hell you are! I'm Spartacus.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Ahh, don't you love the smell of the Young Pioneers in morning.

The Young Pioneer Organization of the Soviet Union, also Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organization (Russian: Всесою́зная пионе́рская организа́ция и́мени В. И. Ле́нина Ru-Vsesoyuznaya_pionerskaya_organizatsia_imeni_Vladimira_Ilicha_Lenina.ogg listen (help·info); tr.:Vsesoyuznaya pionerskaya organizatsiya imeni V. I. Lenina), was a mass youth organization of the USSR for children of age 10–15 in the Soviet Union between 1922 and 1991. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneer_organization_of_the_Soviet_Union

More school: Obama would curtail summer vacation

By LIBBY QUAID, AP Education Writer Libby Quaid, Ap Education Writer Sun Sep 27, 3:29 pm ET WASHINGTON – Students beware: The summer vacation you just enjoyed could be sharply curtailed if President Barack Obama gets his way.

Obama says American kids spend too little time in school, putting them at a disadvantage with other students around the globe.

"Now, I know longer school days and school years are not wildly popular ideas," the president said earlier this year. "Not with Malia and Sasha, not in my family, and probably not in yours. But the challenges of a new century demand more time in the classroom."

The president, who has a sixth-grader and a third-grader, wants schools to add time to classes, to stay open late and to let kids in on weekends so they have a safe place to go.

"Our school calendar is based upon the agrarian economy and not too many of our kids are working the fields today," Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in a recent interview with The Associated Press.

Fifth-grader Nakany Camara is of two minds. She likes the four-week summer program at her school, Brookhaven Elementary School in Rockville, Md. Nakany enjoys seeing her friends there and thinks summer school helped boost her grades from two Cs to the honor roll.

But she doesn't want a longer school day. "I would walk straight out the door," she said.

Domonique Toombs felt the same way when she learned she would stay for an extra three hours each day in sixth grade at Boston's Clarence R. Edwards Middle School.

"I was like, `Wow, are you serious?'" she said. "That's three more hours I won't be able to chill with my friends after school."

Her school is part of a 3-year-old state initiative to add 300 hours of school time in nearly two dozen schools. Early results are positive. Even reluctant Domonique, who just started ninth grade, feels differently now. "I've learned a lot," she said.

Does Obama want every kid to do these things? School until dinnertime? Summer school? And what about the idea that kids today are overscheduled and need more time to play?

___

Obama and Duncan say kids in the United States need more school because kids in other nations have more school.

"Young people in other countries are going to school 25, 30 percent longer than our students here," Duncan told the AP. "I want to just level the playing field."

While it is true that kids in many other countries have more school days, it's not true they all spend more time in school.

Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days).

___

Regardless, there is a strong case for adding time to the school day.

Researcher Tom Loveless of the Brookings Institution looked at math scores in countries that added math instruction time. Scores rose significantly, especially in countries that added minutes to the day, rather than days to the year.

"Ten minutes sounds trivial to a school day, but don't forget, these math periods in the U.S. average 45 minutes," Loveless said. "Percentage-wise, that's a pretty healthy increase."

In the U.S., there are many examples of gains when time is added to the school day.

Charter schools are known for having longer school days or weeks or years. For example, kids in the KIPP network of 82 charter schools across the country go to school from 7:30 a.m. to 5 p.m., more than three hours longer than the typical day. They go to school every other Saturday and for three weeks in the summer. KIPP eighth-grade classes exceed their school district averages on state tests.

In Massachusetts' expanded learning time initiative, early results indicate that kids in some schools do better on state tests than do kids at regular public schools. The extra time, which schools can add as hours or days, is for three things: core academics — kids struggling in English, for example, get an extra English class; more time for teachers; and enrichment time for kids.

Regular public schools are adding time, too, though it is optional and not usually part of the regular school day. Their calendar is pretty much set in stone. Most states set the minimum number of school days at 180 days, though a few require 175 to 179 days.

Several schools are going year-round by shortening summer vacation and lengthening other breaks.

Many schools are going beyond the traditional summer school model, in which schools give remedial help to kids who flunked or fell behind.

Summer is a crucial time for kids, especially poorer kids, because poverty is linked to problems that interfere with learning, such as hunger and less involvement by their parents.

That makes poor children almost totally dependent on their learning experience at school, said Karl Alexander, a sociology professor at Baltimore's Johns Hopkins University, home of the National Center for Summer Learning.

Disadvantaged kids, on the whole, make no progress in the summer, Alexander said. Some studies suggest they actually fall back. Wealthier kids have parents who read to them, have strong language skills and go to great lengths to give them learning opportunities such as computers, summer camp, vacations, music lessons, or playing on sports teams.

"If your parents are high school dropouts with low literacy levels and reading for pleasure is not hard-wired, it's hard to be a good role model for your children, even if you really want to be," Alexander said.

Extra time is not cheap. The Massachusetts program costs an extra $1,300 per student, or 12 percent to 15 percent more than regular per-student spending, said Jennifer Davis, a founder of the program. It received more than $17.5 million from the state Legislature last year.

The Montgomery County, Md., summer program, which includes Brookhaven, received $1.6 million in federal stimulus dollars to operate this year and next, but it runs for only 20 days.

Aside from improving academic performance, Education Secretary Duncan has a vision of schools as the heart of the community. Duncan, who was Chicago's schools chief, grew up studying alongside poor kids on the city's South Side as part of the tutoring program his mother still runs.

"Those hours from 3 o'clock to 7 o'clock are times of high anxiety for parents," Duncan said. "They want their children safe. Families are working one and two and three jobs now to make ends meet and to keep food on the table."

___

Associated Press writer Russell Contreras in Boston contributed to this report.

[Christopher]

Obama and Duncan say kids in the United States need more school because kids in other nations have more school.

(1) While it is true that kids in many other countries have more school days, it's not true they all spend more time in school. Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days)... [i'm ignoring this point, but still worth highlighting]

(2) Charter schools are known for having longer school days or weeks or years... KIPP eighth-grade classes exceed their school district averages on state tests.

(3) In Massachusetts' expanded learning time initiative, early results indicate that kids in some schools do better on state tests than do kids at regular public schools.

Now that I've puked my guts out after reading this post, let's see if I can think about this... The rational for having more school is that more schooling allows children to do better on state tests? Well, no shit. If the state is teaching something and sets a standard against what they're teaching, they better do well given more practice.

Ok, do state tests actually mean anything in the real world? Are state tests correlated with income, with creativity, with well-being? And do these correlations separate out a student's personal initiative such as desire to work hard, desire to succeed, inborn talent?... Instead, could summer or real life experiences perhaps add value to a student's personal initiative, creativity, or well-being which shows up in later life success but not on state tests?

[Selene]

Obama and Duncan say kids in the United States need more school because kids in other nations have more school.

(1) While it is true that kids in many other countries have more school days, it's not true they all spend more time in school. Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days)... [i'm ignoring this point, but still worth highlighting]

(2) Charter schools are known for having longer school days or weeks or years... KIPP eighth-grade classes exceed their school district averages on state tests.

(3) In Massachusetts' expanded learning time initiative, early results indicate that kids in some schools do better on state tests than do kids at regular public schools.

Now that I've puked my guts out after reading this post, let's see if I can think about this... The rational for having more school is that more schooling allows children to do better on state tests? Well, no shit. If the state is teaching something and sets a standard against what they're teaching, they better do well given more practice.

Ok, do state tests actually mean anything in the real world? Are state tests correlated with income, with creativity, with well-being? And do these correlations separate out a student's personal initiative such as desire to work hard, desire to succeed, inborn talent?... Instead, could summer or real life experiences perhaps add value to a student's personal initiative, creativity, or well-being which shows up in later life success but not on state tests?

Chris:

First, I did get the chess message.

I have several clients who are school teachers in NY City and now NJ. Their unanimous opinion is that the "bean counters" are constructing an absolutely impenetrable mass of data that is completely tautological, enclosed by their semantic and circularly reporting test results that, as you clearly pointed out, they teach too.

This is not about test scores, this is again about the progressive marxist agenda, ie., Dewey to:

separate the child from his country, his parents/family and his religion and we create the common child.

The more time conditioning them in the abortion of an educational propaganda mill is the less time they can be exposed to ideas.

Adam

[Reidy]

This brings back memories. When I was a child (the 56 and 60 elections), rumors swept the playground a few days before the election that if (Stevenson/Nixon) wins, we'll be going to school year round. They both lost. This may be a good sign.

[Selene]

This brings back memories. When I was a child (the 56 and 60 elections), rumors swept the playground a few days before the election that if (Stevenson/Nixon) wins, we'll be going to school year round. They both lost. This may be a good sign.

Interesting, I was involved in the 1960 campaign, but all I remember doing in 1956 is wearing an I like Ike button and handing out campaign literature with my father. The big issue was Quemoy and Matsu, the Russians and the arms race in 1956.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Other than the "under God" quote, it really has very little to do with altruism/collectivism/faith regardless of what the writers' intentions were.

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic

for which it stands,

one Nation under God,

indivisible,

with liberty and justice for all.

The U.S. has never had liberty and justice for all, in its entire history.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Xray]

And isn't being obliged to make the "pledge of allegiance" by swearing to a flag in the classroom a form of indoctrination too?

Just curious: What happens in case a pupil refuses this pledge?

Selene:

It is a PUBLIC SCHOOL xray.

Pledging allegiance to the flag of the greatest country in the history of man is indoctrination.

"Rauno Huttunen Department of Education University of Joensuu Finland

1 The problem of the criteria of indoctrination

In the philosophy of education, the concept of indoctrination refers to unethical influencing in a teaching situation. Indoctrination means infiltrating (drilling, inculcating etc.) concepts, attitudes, beliefs and theories into a student’s mind by passing her free and critical deliberation. When ‑ on a general level ‑ we define indoctrination in this way, it is easy to say that the indoctrinati­ve teaching is morally wrong and that teachers or educational institutions should not practice it. The problem is how do we acknowledge indoctrinative teaching? By what criterion do we consider teaching to be a form of indoctrination or to have elements of indoctrination?"

Adam

It was curious to know what happens in case a pupil refuses to make the pledge of allegiance.

I'm typing this in a hurry, having only very limited access to the internet (I'm in Sweden on a work-related trip where we are discussing about the common and different pedagocic standards in various European countries), so for comparison purposes, am very interested to know whether it is possible to refuse the pledge of allegiance in the US, and also whether kindergartners have to make the pledge too. TIA for any info on this.

Jeff Riggenbach:

(Quoting Selene):

"Pledging allegiance to the flag of the greatest country in the history of man . . ." (Selene)

This is too comical for words.

JR

Do you know whether pupils are free to refuse the pledge?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

And isn't being obliged to make the "pledge of allegiance" by swearing to a flag in the classroom a form of indoctrination too?

Just curious: What happens in case a pupil refuses this pledge?

It is a PUBLIC SCHOOL xray.

Pledging allegiance to the flag of the greatest country in the history of man is indoctrination.

"Rauno Huttunen Department of Education University of Joensuu Finland

1 The problem of the criteria of indoctrination

In the philosophy of education, the concept of indoctrination refers to unethical influencing in a teaching situation. Indoctrination means infiltrating (drilling, inculcating etc.) concepts, attitudes, beliefs and theories into a student’s mind by passing her free and critical deliberation. When ‑ on a general level ‑ we define indoctrination in this way, it is easy to say that the indoctrinati­ve teaching is morally wrong and that teachers or educational institutions should not practice it. The problem is how do we acknowledge indoctrinative teaching? By what criterion do we consider teaching to be a form of indoctrination or to have elements of indoctrination?"

Adam

It was curious to know what happens in case a pupil refuses to make the pledge of allegiance.

I'm typing this in a hurry, (I'm in Sweden on a work-related trip where we are discussing about the common and different [pedagocic] pedagogic standards in various European countries), and for comparison purposes, am very interested to know whether it is possible to refuse the pledge of allegiance in the US.

xray:

The answer is nothing, unless the local school district does something exceptionally marxist and punished the student. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union [pardon me while I gag, but they do have their role in America] would sue, win and collect damages.

The right to refuse is inherent in American law and in the American spirit.

Sweden, hmmm, I hope you are not getting a sex change operation so you could be the new Christine Jorgeson...

Do they have pedagogic standards in Europe? Additionally, will the European countries apply those standards to Muslims? And finally, it is really nice to see the Germany had the balls to elect a Ronald Reagan in drag...Merkel is now the leader of the free world because our marxist President is destroying America from within.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

So here's a hearty hip-hooray a-something-something-some!

Hip, hip hooray! (3x)

Hail to the Leader or is it Seig Heil?

In Germany, kids sang hymns to The Leader too.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

Do they have pedagogic standards in Europe? Additionally, will the European countries apply those standards to Muslims? And finally, it is really nice to see the Germany had the balls to elect a Ronald Reagan in drag...Merkel is now the leader of the free world because our marxist President is destroying America from within.

Adam

Don't be so quick to praise Ronald Reagan. Before he was elected he gave lectures on the evils of Big Government. After he was elected he and his Republican buddies delivered $1.75 worth of government for ever $1.00 collected in taxes, creating a massive deficit. Compared to Reagan, Bill Clinton was a fiscal moderate.

And don't be so quick to praise Merkel. She, like every other leader in the world, is a Statist.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Do they have pedagogic standards in Europe? Additionally, will the European countries apply those standards to Muslims? And finally, it is really nice to see the Germany had the balls to elect a Ronald Reagan in drag...Merkel is now the leader of the free world because our marxist President is destroying America from within.

Adam

Don't be so quick to praise Ronald Reagan. Before he was elected he gave lectures on the evils of Big Government. After he was elected he and his Republican buddies delivered $1.75 worth of government for ever $1.00 collected in taxes, creating a massive deficit. Compared to Reagan, Bill Clinton was a fiscal moderate.

And don't be so quick to praise Merkel. She, like every other leader in the world, is a Statist.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I understand your point Ba'al, however, there are a couple of facts that I would like to point out to you.

First, Reagan dealt with a Democratic Congress and to get his defense spending to rebuild the military that had been eviscerated by Jimma Carter, [gee was he not the racist who blocked building a school for the little nigra kids when he was on that Georgia {pronounced "Jorgia" < I need Ted on this one} school board?

Clinton dealt with a Newt Gingrich contract with America Congress.

Therefore, I would contend that the comparison that you are making has some problems.

Were you working on those nifty weapons under Reagan, Ba'al? Or, did you see a demand in your field under his 8 years? Just curious.

Adam

[Xray]

I'm typing this in a hurry, (I'm in Sweden on a work-related trip where we are discussing about the common and different [pedagocic] pedagogic standards in various European countries), and for comparison purposes, am very interested to know whether it is possible to refuse the pledge of allegiance in the US.

Selene:

xray:

The answer is nothing, unless the local school district does something exceptionally marxist and punished the student. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union [pardon me while I gag, but they do have their role in America] would sue, win and collect damages.

The right to refuse is inherent in American law and in the American spirit.

Thanks for the info. Does this right to refuse also apply to teachers in case they don't want to pledge allegiance to the flag?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Xray

[BaalChatzaf]

Response to Selene:

I got out of the weapons business in 1968. My main reason was being totally turned of the the corruption and stupidity of the Dept. of Defense, its weapons acquisition procedures and its oversight. I did do some theoretical work on compression algorithms some of which was used for guiding cruise missiles overland in the pre-GPS days, but nothing directly with weapons. My interest in the problem was mostly theoretical and their were applications to civilian work as much as military. I found out later that some of my work actually drew blood (indirectly of course) but that did not bother me a bit.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited September 29, 2009 by BaalChatzaf

[Selene]

I'm typing this in a hurry, (I'm in Sweden on a work-related trip where we are discussing about the common and different [pedagocic] pedagogic standards in various European countries), and for comparison purposes, am very interested to know whether it is possible to refuse the pledge of allegiance in the US.

Selene:

xray:

The answer is nothing, unless the local school district does something exceptionally marxist and punished the student. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union [pardon me while I gag, but they do have their role in America] would sue, win and collect damages.

The right to refuse is inherent in American law and in the American spirit.

Thanks for the info. Does this right to refuse also apply to teachers in case they don't want to pledge allegiance to the flag?

Yes xray. Additionally, a person in an American Court of Law a person can affirm if they are not Christian, etc. rather than swear on the bible.

We actually are a very "liberal", in the classical sense, country. You should read some Tocqueville, he nails the essential soul of an American.

Adam

[Reidy]

The Supreme Court ruled during WW2 that a West Virginia law requiring students to pledge was unconstitutional.

The question came up in the 1988 presidential campaign. The MA legislature overruled a Dukakis veto of a law requiring teachers to lead the pledge. He cited this 1940s decision as a justification, but numerous people pointed out that the law was not a requirement on students and so did not fall under the ruling. The WSJ ran an op-ed piece at the time citing several lower court decisions that had upheld pledge requirements as long as students were free to opt out. The Supreme Court has never taken the question up.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Reidy

[Ed Hudgins]

So here's a hearty hip-hooray a-something-something-some!

Hip, hip hooray! (3x)

Hail to the Leader or is it Seig Heil?

In Germany, kids sang hymns to The Leader too.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ich glaube dass man sagt: Ein Volk, ein Barack, ein Reich!

[BaalChatzaf]

So here's a hearty hip-hooray a-something-something-some!

Hip, hip hooray! (3x)

Hail to the Leader or is it Seig Heil?

In Germany, kids sang hymns to The Leader too.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ich glaube dass man sagt: Ein Volk, ein Barack, ein Reich!

Und er sagt wir kann es tun! Was will komm nun?

Ba'al Chatzaf