BaalChatzaf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 22 hours ago, anthony said: If I remember right, one at least of the Founders was more worried about democracy than of monarchy. (?) quite so. the history of the pellopenesian wars indicate that democracy is not stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Korbe That's why he builds big beautiful skyscrapers and runs them within capitalism and dogmatic ideologues do not. Michael He also builds gaudy hotels and gambling casinos and he has not added to our technological repertoire one iota. Bill Gates and Elon Musk have done more to add to our intellectual muscle than Donny the Real Estate hawker. Donny also has to deal with the unions which are run by the Mob. Donny is schlock, but he is honest schlock. He never once attempted to appear to be other than he is. He gets full faith and credit for that. There are a number of capitalist models. Ed Land (he of Polaroid fame) was my model capitalist. Donny Schlock is not. But I voted for him anyway, because Hillary was pure bunk and garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Dallas Fort Worth wrote: So Trump hypothetically wins? end quote If he had been campaigning for the popular vote, Mr. Showman would have won it. I have no doubt because Kellyanne Conway was paid to win and Trump loves a winner. Jiminy Cricket, he the anointed one, would have been in San Fran to campaign. Peter And by the way I wrote the following. Malcolm Zee as played by comedian Chris Rock, on Saturday Night Live. Hello, my name is Malcolm Zee owner of “New Balance” shoes. There has been a rumor going around that my shoes are the shoes of white people. What crap. As you can plainly see I am black. Coincidentally, my name starts with a “Z.” The internet is saying the “N” logo which stands for “New Balance” by the way, looks like the White Nationalism “Z” symbol if you turn it on its side. Or it could stand for the “N” word. nigger. No you morons. It’s just an “N”. They are saying the words new balance mean new balance in the political order, so let me tell you Bro’s, the new balance in the political order is not racism but if you want to say it means something about my buddy, Donald Trump, go right ahead. Just don’t be stooopid! He considered me for an Agricultural post because of my export experience and because of my Mississippi farm background but I turned him down. And one more thing they talk about Fox news being Alt Right News. So few people watch ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, or CNN anymore, but they sho’ do watch Fox. Then they are the alternatives and Fox is the mainstream. In conclusion, leave those white people who wear my shoes alone. They like my reasonable prices and my wide sizes. They pay the rent baby. And plenty of black folk wear them too. And you want to tell me Air Jordan’s ain’t just for blacks? Now that’s racist! Buy New Balance, the shoes for the whole world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: He also builds gaudy hotels and gambling casinos and he has not added to our technological repertoire one iota. Bob, Well you have never written a famous symphony. So what? Setting aside your aesthetic tastes, you're going to roast a guy for choosing one profession over another? Jeez... Besides, you are wrong. About as wrong as can be. The really wrong kinda wrong. Look at the following from the Wikipedia article on The Trump Organization: Quote Trump's stock portfolio is valued somewhere between $33.4 million and $87.9 million stock diversified with hundreds of enterprises in variety of industries. He owns a stake in a number of public companies within numerous sectors that include tobacco distributors, retail outlets, pharmaceutical companies, industrial manufacturing companies, financial conglomerates, oil companies, high technology firms and defense contractors.[29][93] Public stock investments within his portfolio include General Electric, Chevron, UPS, Coca-Cola, Home Depot, Comcast, Sanofi, Ford, ConocoPhillips, Energy Transfer Partners, Altera, Verizon Communications, Procter & Gamble, Bank of America, Nike, Google, Apple Inc., Philip Morris, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Whole Foods, Intel, IBM, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Johnson & Johnson, Caterpillar, Kinder Morgan, AT&T and Facebook. . . . Trump has also invested in funds that focus on middle and smaller sized businesses such as Tesla Motors, the electric car maker and has invested internationally in a number of emerging market, growth and hedge funds located in Europe and Asia. And that's just on the surface--a friggin' Wikipedia article. Donald Trump is far, far more than the grumpy opinion of one Bob BaalChatzaf on OL, for as dear as he is to us. (And he is dear to us.) Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 10 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: So Trump hypothetically wins? Korben, No. ...wait for it... 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: If the legal rules were different, he would have campaigned in a different manner and kicked Clinton's ass. Sounds like a hypothetical win to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Merlin, LOL... LOL. I guess both you and Trump missed this: "This week, Ford chief executive Mark Fields reiterated that it was moving forward with plans to shift production of the Ford Focus to Mexico from Michigan." Trump didn't reverse that, did he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Bob, Well you have never written a famous symphony. So what? Setting aside your aesthetic tastes, you're going to roast a guy for choosing one profession over another? Jeez... Besides, you are wrong. About as wrong as can be. The really wrong kinda wrong. Look at the following from the Wikipedia article on The Trump Organization: And that's just on the surface--a friggin' Wikipedia article. Donald Trump is far, far more than the grumpy opinion of one Bob BaalChatzaf on OL, for as dear as he is to us. (And he is dear to us.) Michael Compare Donald Trump to Edward Land. There is the difference that makes a difference. Inventive capitalists like George Westinghouse (who invented the air brake), Thomas Edison and going back a little, James Watt who invented the steam engine with condenser. Watt essentially launched the steam driven industrial revolution and laid the basis for thermodynamics which scientists like Carnot picked up on. Or James Joule who got rich brewing beer and who founded the science of energy based on the conservation of energy. Now those capitalists are the heroes. Not Donny Schlock. Donny Schlock's greatest accomplishment will be the demolition of the current political alignment and the entrenched corruption. He will wreck the system, which is why I voted for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 36 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said: Sounds like a hypothetical win to me! Korben, I get it that you like gotcha. This has nothing to do with Trump, but gotcha qua gotcha can be fun. Got is Got. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 47 minutes ago, merjet said: Trump didn't reverse that, did he? Merlin, Trump never claimed to reverse it. He said, "I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky." I believe him. You are making an assumption that Trump only "worked hard" for one day, the day Bill Ford called him and that Bill Ford had been on the phone with him only that once. Thus Trump is taking credit for something he had nothing to do with. The gotcha is nice if that's your thing, but that's a premise I would check if you truly want to avoid getting Trump consistently wrong. Trump does not do lightening negotiations with big things as a rule. He likes to take the correct amount of time for his leverage to sink in and the other side to envision the alternatives clearly. Do you want to know what I suspect? I suspect that Bill Ford knew Trump was going to tweet what he did and even suggested it. Why? For a ton load of reasons they might have been discussing ever since Trump got the nomination and kept bashing the Mexican Ford plant. That's what I suspect. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 44 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: Compare Donald Trump to Edward Land. Bob, Why would I do that? I compared what you said Trump didn't do to what Trump actually did. You were wrong. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 46 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Got is Got. And naught is naught.. ie. the hypothetical can't be an is before it is an is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Merlin, Trump [ ] said, "I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky." I believe him. Thus Trump is taking credit for something he had nothing to do with. I don't believe him, and Trump tried to take credit for a non-event. "Ford has never announced any plans to move either its Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville, which produces the Lincoln Navigator, or the Louisville Assembly Plant, which produces the Lincoln MKC, to Mexico." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Ba’al wrote: He also builds gaudy hotels and gambling casinos and he has not added to our technological repertoire one iota . . . . He will wreck the system, which is why I voted for him. end quote You mean he didn’t invent the “bucky ball?” We saw “The Donald” on his TV appearances and shows, during the primaries and the Presidential election so we have an image of him as a kind of scrappy buffoon. But a lot of thought and effort built his empire, and now that he is selecting a team and meeting with “higher ups” from all countries, we may be seeing the real Donald Trump . . . the Trump we will be seeing for the next four years: picky, smarter and wiser, than we ever imagined. Well, maybe MSK imagined it. Chug back to the beginning of this thread and you will see a lot of us nay sayers have changed our tunes. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Bob, Why would I do that? I compared what you said Trump didn't do to what Trump actually did. You were wrong. Michael what new technology did Trump create? Ed Land invented the Polaroid Filter and was key in developing instant photography. I like capitalists who actually invent things. People like Land, Edison, Joule, Watt. It will be sufficient if Donny Schlock fulfills his role as a wrecking ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: what new technology did Trump create? Bob, What new technology would a lot of geniuses have created without the financing Trump provided? Did you read the part about his investments? I doubt the technical geniuses used schlock for their technical requirements. They used Trump's money. A basement or garage, chewing gum and scotch tape will only get you so far. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 54 minutes ago, merjet said: I don't believe him, and Trump tried to take credit for a non-event. "Ford has never announced any plans to move either its Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville, which produces the Lincoln Navigator, or the Louisville Assembly Plant, which produces the Lincoln MKC, to Mexico." Merlin, Well, if the Ford PR Department says something, I guess it's true. But the problem is Trump wasn't talking about Ford's public announcements. I don't think he even worked on any PR stuff with Bill Ford (except my speculation about his tweets). He certainly didn't try to take any credit for the Ford PR Department not announcing anything. He did talk about Ford's future plant location plans, though... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I was thinking about what Ba’al said, that a scientist would be preferable for President. I remember touring Monticello, home of Thomas Jefferson. He was a farmer, a philosopher, an inventor, and Prez. That is probably the closest we will ever get to a scientist in the oval office. He invented hundreds of things if I remember correctly. I wonder if any scientist will ever run for President? Rand Paul is a doctor, so several doctors are in congress or have run for the top spot. Ben Franklin tinkered with electricity but the only government office he held was Postmaster General and Ambassador to France. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, Peter said: That is probably the closest we will ever get to a scientist in the oval office. Peter, See here. Quote A total math nerd, James Garfield developed a trapezoid proof of the Pythagorean theorem, a finding that saw his work published in the New England Journal of Education (given the anti-intellectual streak that runs through much of US politics today, it may be a while before another published scientist gets elected to office). Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: See here. And there's Jimmy Carter: Quote He had a bachelor of science degree from the U.S. Naval Academy and was trained as an engineer. Believe me, I don't want a scientist (or semi-scientist) in a Mexican standoff with Iran--or with Mexico for that matter. We've already seen what that looks like. Maybe a scientist one day could invent virtual balls they could hoist to replace the vacuum in between their legs, but so far, that's in the realm of unicorns... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Bob, What new technology would a lot of geniuses have created without the financing Trump provided? Did you read the part about his investments? I doubt the technical geniuses used schlock for their technical requirements. They used Trump's money. A basement or garage, chewing gum and scotch tape will only get you so far. Michael Only so far. Poor Tom Edison.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Bob, What new technology would a lot of geniuses have created without the financing Trump provided? Did you read the part about his investments? I doubt the technical geniuses used schlock for their technical requirements. They used Trump's money. A basement or garage, chewing gum and scotch tape will only get you so far. Michael Challenge: name a single technology or invention that came into existence because Trump invested in it and would not have come into existence if Trump had not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 minute ago, BaalChatzaf said: Challenge: name a single technology or invention that came into existence because Trump invested in it and would not have come into existence if Trump had not. Bob, This is getting silly. Read my post where I quoted the Wikipedia article and take your pick. You don't like Trump. I get it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said: Challenge: name a single technology or invention that came into existence because Trump invested in it and would not have come into existence if Trump had not. What is your point? Do you know what your point is? Do you have a point? The point that your words seem to suggest is the Marxist idea that the little guys do all the work and deserve all the money and the big boss exploits them and doesn't deserve any money and so you are thumbs down on Trump because he is an exploiter (you seem to think). Consider an example of a large project. A skyscraper. There is a hierarchy. At the lowest level are the unskilled workers. They push a broom and clean up and fetch and carry. Slightly higher are the apprentices, the apprentice carpenters, apprentice bricklayers, and so on for many trades. Higher than that are the journeymen, journeyman carpenter etc. Most trades take 4 years to learn. Then there is the foreman who is the boss of the outfit for one trade, the carpenter foreman, the plumber foreman, etc. Sometimes there is a boss above the foreman in a given trade. He might be the contractor or the subcontractor. The contractor hires the subcontractors. Before they begin construction of the skyscraper, architects and engineers plan it. Before the planning begins, a business decision must be made. This is not done by arbitrary whim. Is there a market demand for this building? How much will this building cost to build, considering materials and labor and whatever else? How much will this building cost to maintain, considering property tax and repairs and heating and lighting and whatnot? How much revenue will this building generate, from rents or whatever? Someone has to figure out all this stuff, which itself is a job. Then there is the question of money. Do you know anything you can do without money? Not much. Where does the money come from? Maybe from a bank loan. Then we are talking collateral and how to pay the loan back with interest. Building a skyscraper is very complexicated and the top guy (Trump or whoever) has to have the knowledge and experience and brain to make it happen. Ayn Rand wrote a whole book, Atlas Shrugged, explaining what happens when the top guys go on strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 It wasn't only the top guys, although she concentrated on them. You see, if you remove one top guy he's replaced by whoever was just below him. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Bob, This is getting silly. Read my post where I quoted the Wikipedia article and take your pick. You don't like Trump. I get it. Michael I like Trump for the purpose I selected him. He will wreck the current political system. I prefer my capitalists to be very high tech. Donny Schlock does not qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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