South Carolina Church Shooting

[Selene]

We should remember one or the Reverend Jackson's refreshingly direct statements:

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating.

Remarks at a meeting of Operation PUSH in Chicago (27 November 1993). Quoted in "Crime: New Frontier - Jesse Jackson Calls It Top Civil-Rights Issue" by Mary A. Johnson, 29 November 1993, Chicago Sun-Times (ellipsis in original). Partially quoted in "In America; A Sea Change On Crime" by Bob Herbert, 12 December 1993, New York Times.

This was a perceived sense that the percentages of being robbed or mugged were lower if the footsteps had a white body in the shoes.

A...

[Mikee]

My question to you, to anyone, why would a person in the United States feel real fear in the presence of a stranger who is black rather than a stranger who is white?

They probably had either a bad experience in the past or they were given anecdotal information from one who had a bad experience, or they have only been watching and reading a select side of the media. I've actually have no problem with that but that why someone feels a certain why gives them no further justification then the black mass murderer who blamed his pass treatment

How did we get there?

I dont have the answer to that. Are you assuming that we should be at this junction of fearing a certain race and therefore being just a little extra-protective of yourself and family? My whole point in bringing all of my examples of white violence up was never to show racism on their part, justification of racism on my part, or any ill will I feel toward them (or you) because I don't have any of those feelings. The whole point was to show how ridiculous it is to look at some numbers (as i could easily do reading Nation of Islam propaganda) and use that to conclude that white people are generally evil. That is stupid for black people to do it and its stupid for Peter to do it.

Who benefits from this situation?

Don't know and don't care. Irrelevant to this whole discussion. We can start a new thread though...

Why would I label you a racist? Is it because the standard line is every black man who defends against statistics used out of context can only do this by deciding that the other person is a racist? When out of my 500 posts have I given the impression that I'm that sort of person? Are those people out there? Yes, of course but that not me.

Also, when was that my "answer to everything" ? Again, I had a thread on Affirmative action, many people disagreed with me, was my responses to them indicative of one who is looking to accuse those individuals as being racist? I don't even know where you got that from. I'll state for the record-

I don't think you are a racist even though you have disagreed with one of my posts. I don't thing Greg is a racist (far from it) though we have disagreed on numerous posts. In fact I'm one of those guys who truly does think that racism (white toward black) has declined tremendously and I personally have never felt a day of racism in my life, not working for a white guy (we've gone on bike rides together and I've been to all his houses) not dating a white Jewish girl for 3 years and being around her family, not going to a predominatly white college and not going to this 4th of July cookout (5th year running) where out of 50 people my family will be possibly once again the only black people there

Hey, you made the hypocritical statement

Again, the way you feel should have little bearing on how you act in such situations

I'm having a bit of trouble sorting out exactly what you're replying to in places. I'd like to point out that your misunderstanding something I'm saying does not equal hypocrisy on my part. I am not a hypocrite.

"They may have had a bad experience..." Lot's of bad experiences by many people, understandably. The black community, those who identify as such, has been taken for a ride for decades. They've been bought by the race hucksters and the left and the self interested and self serving bureaucracy and pols to their detriment. Quotas and affirmative action are an insult, as is welfare and any number of entitlements. These are a detriment, not a reparation. The black community has been climbing a foothill, not the mountain. They've gotten high enough to see the mountain and know they are not on the path up the mountain. The mountain is over there, on the other side of the dark forest and through the swamp. I think many, many people in the black community know they've been sold a bill of goods and are justifiably angry. Especially the good people. When even the good people are angry, the bad apples feel justified in any actions to express their feelings. And they do act out, they take what they want and they don't care who they hurt in the process. So I think the fear is real, not imaginary, the rate of crime committed by young black men is higher and that the incarceration rates would be higher even without any racial cognizance of the police force at all if that were possible. The root cause is social engineering for political gain gone bad.

[moralist]

This explains why Police are way more likely to draw down on a black than on a white:

Also explains why judges are more likely to convict and give harsher sentences??

Absolutely, Derek.

Blacks are only f**king themselves by embedding rotten values into their culture. It's completely self inflicted.

Just why do you think white people make such a fuss over a decent upright ethical honorable responsible productive black man?...

...because he actually has the BALLS to break free from his rotten black culture to live like an American!

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

There is no such thing as "black culture." There is bad culture and good culture, and you may express it in the plural if you prefer, but the proper reference isn't racial--it isn't collectivist.

--Brant

[moralist]

There is no such thing as "black culture."

Yeah, right...

[Derek McGowan]

Really Greg, really. So you are going all sweeping and stereotypical on me too. I'm quite certain you have black friends/partners/clients. Please post an image of them and their families and say how they compare to the black culture image you posted above.

What part of black culture did the Cosby show represent?

What part of black culture does this family represent?

Sorry, I tried to post more images of portraits I've painted but its just not working out so I guess I'm stuck with the one

Epic Fail

But my point remains, if 30% of blacks are on welfare (and that is huge compared to 5% of whites) there is still another 70% of blacks who don't follow today's youth culture/stereotype

Maybe I could post an image of a trailer park and say that that is white culture?

[Derek McGowan]

My question to you, to anyone, why would a person in the United States feel real fear in the presence of a stranger who is black rather than a stranger who is white?

They probably had either a bad experience in the past or they were given anecdotal information from one who had a bad experience, or they have only been watching and reading a select side of the media. I've actually have no problem with that but that why someone feels a certain why gives them no further justification then the black mass murderer who blamed his pass treatment

How did we get there?

I dont have the answer to that. Are you assuming that we should be at this junction of fearing a certain race and therefore being just a little extra-protective of yourself and family? My whole point in bringing all of my examples of white violence up was never to show racism on their part, justification of racism on my part, or any ill will I feel toward them (or you) because I don't have any of those feelings. The whole point was to show how ridiculous it is to look at some numbers (as i could easily do reading Nation of Islam propaganda) and use that to conclude that white people are generally evil. That is stupid for black people to do it and its stupid for Peter to do it.

Who benefits from this situation?

Don't know and don't care. Irrelevant to this whole discussion. We can start a new thread though...

Why would I label you a racist? Is it because the standard line is every black man who defends against statistics used out of context can only do this by deciding that the other person is a racist? When out of my 500 posts have I given the impression that I'm that sort of person? Are those people out there? Yes, of course but that not me.

Also, when was that my "answer to everything" ? Again, I had a thread on Affirmative action, many people disagreed with me, was my responses to them indicative of one who is looking to accuse those individuals as being racist? I don't even know where you got that from. I'll state for the record-

I don't think you are a racist even though you have disagreed with one of my posts. I don't thing Greg is a racist (far from it) though we have disagreed on numerous posts. In fact I'm one of those guys who truly does think that racism (white toward black) has declined tremendously and I personally have never felt a day of racism in my life, not working for a white guy (we've gone on bike rides together and I've been to all his houses) not dating a white Jewish girl for 3 years and being around her family, not going to a predominatly white college and not going to this 4th of July cookout (5th year running) where out of 50 people my family will be possibly once again the only black people there

Hey, you made the hypocritical statement

Again, the way you feel should have little bearing on how you act in such situations

I'm having a bit of trouble sorting out exactly what you're replying to in places. I'd like to point out that your misunderstanding something I'm saying does not equal hypocrisy on my part. I am not a hypocrite.

Sorry about that, the quotes just stopped appearing in the boxes. I answered each question you asked in order.

Also I use hypocrite and contradiction interchangeably so I am at fault for not further clarifying-

If you say that you can understand when someone uses their feelings as justification to use physical force on someone but in another instance say that you are stunned that someone used their feeling to use physical force- that is a contradiction. If somehow you would like to try to make them different because in one instance people were killed and in another they weren't then my question is

If I were a police officer and a part of the Nation of Islam, taught to fear the oppressive white, you would defend my actions if I locked up every white male I saw on the basis of my fear?

If your 5 year old son was acting out at school doing the exact same thing as the black boys in the group and I, as the principle, decided, based on my fear of whites, that only your son should be suspended from school, you would defend my actions?

Sitting in a court room headed by a black judge, you witness 10 cases of auto theft. 8 of them were black defendants and two being white. The black judge gives all the black defendants a pass but locks up the white defendants with the maximum sentences. When asked why he did such a racially motivated thing, the judge says that he fears white oppression. So, you would defend him on that?

[Derek McGowan]

There is no such thing as "black culture."

Yeah, right...

White culture!

[Brant Gaede]

"Black culture" = racism.

"White culture" = racism.

Both caused by the labels, assuming racism really isn't in one's head.

The labels can help create racist attitudes for both these groups including auto-racism aka reverse racism.

If you're in prison you likely have to be a practicing racist for group protection.

Blacks are most susceptible to racism because of their general minority status and skin color.

It used to be, at least in one southern state surrounding New Orleans, maybe still is, you could be officially classified as "black" or "negro"--at least not the other "n" word--if you were as little as 5% black. Today there is so much white blood in black people it's easy sometimes to spot the relatively recent immigrant from Africa by the striking depth and purity of the color of the skin. Maybe we should refer to American blacks as "chocolates"?

Hey, Greg, you've fallen into the racist trap. It's happened to me too. All the time. I have to keep crawling out. You're in danger of staying down there. I'm sure you'd do business with a black if he acted "white" and you perceived he had your "American values."

--Brant

I'm a "green"--the color of money: makes me a "greenist" or "greener," more or less, depending on how green my blood is?--NO!--(my parents weren't pure green, btw--I became green by choice [what did you choose to become? (channeling Ayn Rand)])

[moralist]

Really Greg, really. So you are going all sweeping and stereotypical on me too.

Of course not, Derek,

Each individual decides what moral values they live by regardless of their color. I was explaining why the response of law enforcement is different for blacks than for whites. And that reason is the values that many blacks chose to live by.... the obvious example of that culture being 72% fatherless black babies. If you think that doesn't "nurture" screwed up adults with rotten values, think again. The response they elicit from the Cops is completely self inflicted.

The values I live by and promote are American values... and they're colorblind.

Greg

[moralist]

There is no such thing as "black culture."

Yeah, right...

White culture!

Oh God... now you're going to get Jonathan going now.

That fugly creature he idolizes represents his values!

Greg

[Selene]

Are Latinos white or black or neither?

[Peter]

Mikee asked: My question to you, to anyone, why would a person in the United States feel real fear in the presence of a stranger who is black rather than a stranger who is white? end quote

And Adam answered: This was a perceived sense that the percentages of being robbed or mugged were lower if the footsteps had a white body in the shoes. end quote And Adam also quoted the Reverend Jackson to bolster what IS CONSIDERED common sense by an overwhelming number of people. Why arent you still kissing ass, Adam? Strange. Did you get razzed by your friends for being imbecilic?

Someone who does not see a greater threat from a wolverine than say a rabbit, is having a severe problem with epistemology (thinking.) They have a blind spot. They lack sense that is *common* and their uncommon sense is a true bias towards a lie. A reasonable person can say, "That statistic isnt me" when discussing group statistics, but will still know the statistic IS VALID. An unreasonable person will accept the group statistic about their chances for a medical condition, say high blood pressure leading to stroke, but then ignore what 99 percent of actuarial scientists, police officers on the beat, and those observing the daily comings and goings in a particular neighborhood, are demonstrating. Just imagine trying to get insurance in flood prone areas, or homeowner's insurance in The Projects. Are those statistically minded insurance providers unreasonably biased against beach house owner or minorities?

Remember movies or TV shows about neighborhoods in Manhattan or most small towns from your memory? Thats not hard to do. Why there's Carey Bradshaw from "Sex and the City" and George Castanza from "Seinfeld," walking safely down the streets after dark. The streets are PORTRAYED as safe for a person walking them. Now switch to the Hollywood portrayal of ANY minority neighborhood's street after dark. It feels like the actor is walking through a jungle. Some would have us think those portrayals reflect bias or racism. To do that we would need to suspend our disbelief. Insisting that we must not judge, not presume, and not accept proof to the contrary that predominantly black neighborhoods are more dangerous is ludicrous. Would anyone on OL or in the world walk a dangerous neighborhood and PRETEND it is safe for political correctness? No one would but we have some who will call us racist if we show common and scientific sense. Or speak the truth.

Adam asked: Are Latinos white or black or neither? end quote

My advice is dont be stupid. You know that Latino is not a race, and it does not connote *neither*. A person could be a mixture of races but be part of the Latino culture and heritage. I remember hearing that many Central American countries and Mexico have people with Indian blood which would technically be Asian. They have Spanish (Caucasian) genes and can also have (Negroid) genes. When Castro was exporting his communistic warriors to fight for communism in developing countries in Africa the majority were of African ancestry. And many commentators made a big deal of the fact that Cuban boat people were of mostly Spanish genes leaving the darker skinned Cubans behind. That ties back to my (condemned as racist) question asking how a group could remain a slave for 300 years? I saw your picture of Spartacus. Those ancient dudes certainly rioted. And now one of our free, formerly indentured American minorities is constantly rioting. Why didnt they riot . . . well you get my perplexity.

[Peter]

Mikee eloquently wrote: They've been bought by the race hucksters and the left and the self interested and self serving bureaucracy and pols to their detriment. Quotas and affirmative action are an insult, as is welfare and any number of entitlements. These are a detriment, not a reparation. The black community has been climbing a foothill, not the mountain. They've gotten high enough to see the mountain and know they are not on the path up the mountain. The mountain is over there, on the other side of the dark forest and through the swamp. I think many, many people in the black community know they've been sold a bill of goods and are justifiably angry. Especially the good people. When even the good people are angry, the bad apples feel justified in any actions to express their feelings. end quote

Well said. I think the solution is the same for America's general philosophical trend towards totalitarianism. Education. Clear thinking. Keep emergency funds for emergencies but stop generational welfare payouts. Lower taxes. Elect a decent human being to Congress and the Presidency as is being done on the local level. I remember Rand saying east minus west equals zero when discussing Communism. When discussing subsidized payments to moochers and taxation and theft from others to pay for it, just say Hell no. No more. And then do something about it.

[moralist]

Are Latinos white or black or neither?

For leftists, latinos are a "race".

Greg

[Selene]

Why arent you still kissing ass, Adam? Strange. Did you get razzed by your friends for being imbecilic?

Adam asked: Are Latinos white or black or neither? end quote

My advice is dont be stupid. You know that Latino is not a race, and it does not connote *neither*.

Such childish arguments.

There is one change, I can now state that you are somewhat intelligent.

A...

[Derek McGowan]

There is no such thing as "black culture."

Yeah, right...

White culture!

Oh God... now you're going to get Jonathan going now.

That fugly creature he idolizes represents his values!

Greg

But you gotta admit, that was FUNNY right

How about this one

Seriously though, it would appear that some otherwise thoughtful individuals may be suffering from a lack of on-the-ground- information about the full black community. So enough of these charts and numbers, enough of accusing people of being racist. How about I start a thread where you can ask anything you want about the life of a black person in Baltimore City. I'll provide straight answers, I'll even record a tour of city (via go pro and bicycle) I won't clean up anything or try to persuade. I'll just give as much access as I can. What do ya say?

[william.scherk]

Blacks are responsible for the disproportional response by law enforcement because of their values. 72% of black babies have no father. This is a black value. Blacks freely chose to embed it into their culture.

Greg, where did you get this graphic? It isn't found at the webpage you linked to -- so nobody can check the figures or discover from whence they were derived.

Fatherless children are:

• • 5 times more likely to commit suicide
  • 32 times more likely to run away
  • 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
  • 14 times more likely to commit rape
  • 9 times more likely to drop out of high school
  • 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
  • 9 times more likely to end up in a state-operated institution
  • 20 times more likely to end up in prison.

http://www.fathermag.com/news/2778-stats.shtml

One problem with confirmation bias and motivated reasoning is that only partial 'evidence' is forked up, only evidence that fits the pre-conceived conclusion or prejudice. This is known as cherry-picking (seeking only warrants that serve to confirm a notion, avoiding any warrants that disconfirm).

The biggest problem with copy-pasta lists of supposed truths as you have forked here, Greg -- the underlying statistics are unexaminable. The list from the page you cited has zero references. The offsite link that purports to be the source of the statistics is 404.

If you had climbed a little higher into the cherry tree, you might have come across the same list -- but with references included.

In other words, the list of statistics in your copy-pasta is worthless -- since the underlying sources are unexaminable. Adding to the cognitive whoopee of the pasta list is the prepended 'source' notation -- which you excised in your excerpt:

According to Getting Men Involved: The Newsletter of the Bay Area Male Involvement Network, Spring 1997:

Begin quote:

So, the statistics might as well have been discharged from somebody's asshole for the truth-value contained.

Since you can't bother to back up your contentions with examinable warrants nor with the underlying sources of information, your entire post above is worthless for a reasonable mind. Better you cite your own female intuitive leftist religio-manic garble and epigrams -- or your bible -- because this is not how reason works.

(I won't bother tracking the pre-1997 sources in the excerpt any further, since it couldn't possibly have an effect on your bigoted conclusions about The Blakks. Your contribution here appears to be the same bogus cherry-picking and moral retardation you show in all other attempts at rigorous objective thinking.

Have a nice gay day, Greg, and may your female intuition lead you to better fruits.)

-- I will quote the stupidest line in your hasty pasty: "72% of black babies have no father" ...

(for those equipped with a fully-functioning brain, I will add just one more thought: if a woman gives birth to a child without being married to the father, does this mean the child is fatherless -- or that the child is/was raised in a single-parent household? Hint: check the statistics for 'illegitimate' children in the Nordic countries, particularly Iceland and Sweden ... and you will be faced with the overwhelming Blakkness of the Norse culture ...)

Derek, you are making Peter angry. This is the first sign of a crack in an irrational body of thought. It is a sign of cognitive dissonance. If you press harder, Peter might absorb and understand a glimmer of your objections to bigotry and narrowness of mind. Here's hoping. There are lots and lots of cherries. In a perfect world, he would examine more than a subset of them ... and conclude he has been hasty and unfair in his comments.

My request for a bike+Go cam would be a ride-by an inner-city Baltimore high school during lunch break. It would be interesting to see how many stabbed, shot and strangled folks are left on the concrete once the bell rings. Maybe Francis M Wood high school.

Edited July 1, 2015 by william.scherk

[Selene]

Seriously though, it would appear that some otherwise thoughtful individuals may be suffering from a lack of on-the-ground- information about the full black community. So enough of these charts and numbers, enough of accusing people of being racist. How about I start a thread where you can ask anything you want about the life of a black person in Baltimore City. I'll provide straight answers, I'll even record a tour of city (via go pro and bicycle) I won't clean up anything or try to persuade. I'll just give as much access as I can. What do ya say?

Excellent idea...hey it may go virile and have a reference that is common and activate an honest debate.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Derek,

I've been laughing my ass off.

Go for it.

I think that could become something very interesting.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I want to reiterate something.

The regular posters on OL are all wonderful people.

All of you.

Disagreements, inartful and otherwise, all of you.

Let me go all Godwin's law on everyone a minute and say that this:

... is not a wonderful person.

You folks here are.

Michael

[RobinReborn]

Not that I'm a huge fan of Eric Micheal Dyson but he pointed out on a show that whites look down on a black person who shoots another because they felt that they were disrespected as a thug, but they hold in high regard Alexander Hamilton's duel with Aaron Burr even though that too was simply a respect issue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr%E2%80%93Hamilton_duel

Hamilton might have been black!

http://robinganemccalla.blogspot.com/2010/08/was-alexander-hamilton-black.html

[RobinReborn]

Just skimmed through this thread, no time to respond to everybody but I generally agree with Derek (though sometimes our reasoning is different I think).

The USA would not exist if it weren't able to produce things. The most important thing produced in the USA for its early history was cotton. It's all good and well to claim that the Europeans were the ones who thought of this, but there were laws against teaching slaves to read. When they were brought from Africa they were deliberately mixed in groups where none of them spoke the same language. I could go on about how bad Jim Crow etc were but I won't bother.

The general point is, don't justify history just because it's benefited you or your ancestors. It would be difficult to expect the immediate equalization of economic outcomes right after slavery ended. And there have always been racist opportunist, looking to punish black people because they're easier to punish than white people.

[moralist]

Blacks are responsible for the disproportional response by law enforcement because of their values. 72% of black babies have no father. This is a black value. Blacks freely chose to embed it into their culture.

Greg, where did you get this graphic?

http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/

[RobinReborn]

Derek wrote:

There is good and bad in all of us . . . . end quote

That is all you have to say about different cultures, Derek? Now if Indonesians were constantly in the news I would be talking about them but instead we have crime stories featuring a particular minority; murderous terrorists predominately from Arabic cultures murdering people - here and overseas. PREDICTIVELY, the perpetrators are Arabic or black. Why is it predictable? Because of past experiences not just in the news but statistically.

Actually, it's because most people are so stupid that they trust the news, and therefore the journalists get to create reality rather than report it.