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Nervous in the Service


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#1 daunce lynam

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:14 AM

Marine Sgt Gary Stein, who started a Tea Party facebook page, has said that he would "not follow unlawful orders" from his commander-in-chief Obama, thus putting his superiors in a quandary about the intersections of private free speech and the military constraints on political advocacy.

Thoughts?

#2 Reidy

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.

He's free to make good on his promise as long as he's willing to take the consequences. This would make him a celebrity, somewhat in the mold of Oliver North, and he could parlay his celebrity into talk shows, a book, lecture engagements, political candidacy and all the rest once he left the service (as he'll want to do at the first opportunity if he's sincere).

#3 Peter Taylor

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:10 PM

Peter Reidy wrote:
If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.
end quote

Peter is correct. When I was in basic training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, we were required to take a class on what we could and could not say, which led us into the ethics of being a POW and what we would be allowed to say if in the enemy’s hands. And that was, ‘We could say nothing.’ We were allowed to speak our mind’s during the meeting and I brought up the point that the ability to resist coercian is tough, and under torture, most people “break.” I was able to speak my piece but at the end of the meeting we were all told to keep our mouths shut from now on. And of course we could not publicly criticize the chain of command EXCEPT TO EACH OTHER.

You are taught to march, to historical cadence chants, in Basic. Then we were allowed to utilize the song lyrics we heard on the radio. Someone cleverly incorporated the lyrics from, “My Baby Wrote Me a Letter,” into our daily marches and we chanted that for about two weeks until stopped by our Seargent who said the lyrics had encouraged two guys to go AWOL to be reunited with their girlfriends who had threatened to leave them. Anyone who violated the rule would be on permanent KP. Freedom of speech is OK, within limits in the military. If you are told to shut up, you shut up. Those joining the military are under different rules and temporarily do not enjoy all the liberties of the Constitution. That is just the way it is.
Peter Taylor


Semper cogitans fidele,
Independent Objectivist,
Peter Taylor

#4 daunce lynam

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:36 PM

I would be interested to know what Shane B. who is career Air Force, and Aristo who has just joined it, think about this one.
Maybe they would just say, "Oh well..the Marines.."

#5 PDS

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:56 PM

If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.

He's free to make good on his promise as long as he's willing to take the consequences. This would make him a celebrity, somewhat in the mold of Oliver North, and he could parlay his celebrity into talk shows, a book, lecture engagements, political candidacy and all the rest once he left the service (as he'll want to do at the first opportunity if he's sincere).


The lecture tour would likely have to wait until his stint in Leavonworth is complete. Assuming he doesn't leave the service, as suggested.

#6 Selene

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:58 PM

Peter Reidy wrote:
If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.
end quote

Peter is correct. When I was in basic training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, we were required to take a class on what we could and could not say, which led us into the ethics of being a POW and what we would be allowed to say if in the enemy’s hands. And that was, ‘We could say nothing.’ We were allowed to speak our mind’s during the meeting and I brought up the point that the ability to resist coercian is tough, and under torture, most people “break.” I was able to speak my piece but at the end of the meeting we were all told to keep our mouths shut from now on. And of course we could not publicly criticize the chain of command EXCEPT TO EACH OTHER.

You are taught to march, to historical cadence chants, in Basic. Then we were allowed to utilize the song lyrics we heard on the radio. Someone cleverly incorporated the lyrics from, “My Baby Wrote Me a Letter,” into our daily marches and we chanted that for about two weeks until stopped by our Seargent who said the lyrics had encouraged two guys to go AWOL to be reunited with their girlfriends who had threatened to leave them. Anyone who violated the rule would be on permanent KP. Freedom of speech is OK, within limits in the military. If you are told to shut up, you shut up. Those joining the military are under different rules and temporarily do not enjoy all the liberties of the Constitution. That is just the way it is.
Peter Taylor


Well I don't know...
But I been told...
Eskimo pussy is mighty cold!
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#7 Selene

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:59 PM

I would be interested to know what Shane B. who is career Air Force, and Aristo who has just joined it, think about this one.
Maybe they would just say, "Oh well..the Marines.."


Brant also
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#8 daunce lynam

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:05 PM



Well I don't know...
But I been told...
Eskimo pussy is mighty cold!


Cold is comparative "when the ice-worms nest again"!

#9 Selene

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:44 PM

Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.



The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#10 daunce lynam

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:51 PM

Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=xr0YqkXgwOA

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty


Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?

#11 Selene

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:54 PM


Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=xr0YqkXgwOA

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty


Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?


Unfortunately no.

With the marxist mafia in the White House it appears to be a certainty.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#12 daunce lynam

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:02 PM



Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=xr0YqkXgwOA

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty


Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?



Unfortunately no.

With the marxist mafia in the White House it appears to be a certainty.


I don't quite understand, do you think it should be a constitutional issue or it shouldn't?

As I perceived it (hastily) the issue is, a serving soldier has the constitutional right to refuse to obey an unlawful order (Sgt Stein) or he doesn't (PDS and Cpl Taylor)

#13 Selene

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:12 PM




Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=xr0YqkXgwOA

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty


Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?



Unfortunately no.

With the marxist mafia in the White House it appears to be a certainty.


I don't quite understand, do you think it should be a constitutional issue or it shouldn't?

As I perceived it (hastily) the issue is, a serving soldier has the constitutional right to refuse to obey an unlawful order (Sgt Stein) or he doesn't (PDS and Cpl Taylor)


Carol:

Not having been in the military, I am not certain as to all the restrictions placed on an active duty Marine.

I know he does not have to obey an unlawful order. However, my understanding is that, as an active duty Marine, he does not have a full range of
free speech as guaranteed by the first amendment.

I think he is toast.

Adam
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#14 Selene

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:12 PM

Carol:

This seems to be gathering steam...
Posted Image
The Marine Corps Times previews its cover story about anti-Obama Marines at their 'Battle Rattle' blog.
According to the article, of the 792 active-duty troops and mobilized reservists who responded to this year's Military Times Poll, 44 percent said that they disapprove of the way Obama is handling his job as commander in chief.
The article cites hot button issues such as repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," relaxing restrictions of women in combat, and steep budget cuts, behind the disapproval numbers.
The report highlights the recent controversy over a Tea Party Facebook page operated by active Marine Sgt. Gary Stein.
The full article is available only to Marine Times subscribers.

Video preview below: This story is about 45 seconds into the video below in the article...

http://campaign2012....-marines/438681
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#15 daunce lynam

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:42 AM

Yeah. I saw that Sgt. Stein has a couple of months to go in his current hitch and had reapplied to re-up. Looks like Reidy was right, he is planning for a post-military career as Marine martyr for free speech and the Constitution. I foresee multi media in his future.

#16 Selene

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:33 PM

Army Reserve Reprimands Soldier Who Backed Ron Paul

March 30, 2012 11:40 AM

IOWA CITY, Iowa (CBSDFW.COM/AP) - A soldier who went on national television in his military fatigues to endorse Texan Ron Paul’s presidential campaign has been reprimanded but not dismissed from the Army Reserve, a spokeswoman said Friday.


The Army determined that Jesse D. Thorsen violated policies that bar soldiers from participating in political events in their official capacities or while in uniform. Experts say a reprimand may become a problem if Thorsen seeks a promotion or could be used to justify more serious punishment if he gets in trouble again

http://dfw.cbslocal....acked-ron-paul/
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#17 Selene

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:19 PM

Yeah. I saw that Sgt. Stein has a couple of months to go in his current hitch and had reapplied to re-up. Looks like Reidy was right, he is planning for a post-military career as Marine martyr for free speech and the Constitution. I foresee multi media in his future.


Carol:

Here is his chance.

SAN DIEGO – The Marine Corps said Wednesday it has decided to discharge a sergeant for criticizing President Barack Obama on Facebook.

The Corps said Sgt. Gary Stein will be given an other-than-honorable discharge for violating Pentagon policy limiting speech of service members.

The San Diego-area Marine has served nearly 10 years in the Marine Corps. He has said he was exercising his free-speech rights.

The discharge will mean he loses all benefits.

A federal judge previously denied a request to block military discharge proceedings against Stein, who called Obama an enemy on Facebook.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz1t5bNA0JV

[/left]
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#18 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:02 AM

Now you know why Hitler required everyone in the Wehrmacht to take a loyalty oath to him (Hitler) personally.

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע

#19 daunce lynam

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:38 PM

Baal, I fail to understand your comment. Of course emperors and dictators have always demanded personal loyalty explicitly or implicity. But the guidelines of the American military about following orders are fairly clear. Do you support Sgt. Stein's action?

#20 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:30 AM

Baal, I fail to understand your comment. Of course emperors and dictators have always demanded personal loyalty explicitly or implicity. But the guidelines of the American military about following orders are fairly clear. Do you support Sgt. Stein's action?


Stein knew going in that dissing his superior officers was a no no. He did not have to enlist, you know. If he soured on the service when his contractual term was expired he did not have to re-up.

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע




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