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For my sake....


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#1 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 05:57 AM

Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 37a: Every man is obliged to say - for my sake was the world created -.;

If I am not for myself, then who is for me? --- R. Hillel

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע

#2 Brant Gaede

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:01 AM

"The world began when I was born and the world is mine to win."

--Brant

Rational Individualist, Rational self-interest, Individual Rights--limited government libertarian heavily influenced by Objectivism


#3 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 10:07 AM

Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish?

Ba'al Chatzaf
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#4 Selene

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 10:22 AM

Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish?

Ba'al Chatzaf


Yes.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#5 Xray

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 10:44 AM

Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish? Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes.

It too think it was mere coincidence.

#6 Brant Gaede

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:27 PM

Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish? Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes.

It too think it was mere coincidence.

Why?

--Brant

Rational Individualist, Rational self-interest, Individual Rights--limited government libertarian heavily influenced by Objectivism


#7 Reidy

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

Not entirely, but I think it's way overstated. Jeff Walker, Ron Merrill and Adam Reed, in particular, have put forth some silly and unwarranted conjectures on this as if they were established truths. Walker at one time had a book in the works.

The Jews have historically taken an interest in ideas, for a variety of reasons. One is that for centuries they weren't allowed to own real estate in Europe, so they gravitated towards scholarship and moneylending.

The original inner circle all came to Rand through connections of family, friendship, love and marriage. Given the original Rand / Branden connection, the result is pretty much what you'd expect.

Beyond this, no.

#8 daunce lynam

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:28 AM

I think many arrived at Objectivism through being
"a stranger and afraid/ in a world I never made"
-Housman

#9 whYNOT

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:45 AM

I think many arrived at Objectivism through being "a stranger and afraid/ in a world I never made" -Housman


Good insight, specially if you didn't see the NB essay in VoS titled "Alienation."
His challenge and response to Housman's lines -

"Why didn't you?"
"To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge". Nicolaus Copernicus (An original objectivist) 1473-1543 ***No man may be smaller than his philosophy...***

#10 Xray

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:36 AM


Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish? Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes.

It too think it was mere coincidence.

Why?

--Brant

Isolated quotes from religious scriptures are not significant anyway to warrant conclusions going in a specific direction.
In addition, the first part of the section containing the quote was left out; the complete paragraph reads:

http://www.come-and-...nhedrin_37.html
THE HOLY ONE, BLESSED BE HE, FASHIONED EVERY MAN IN THE STAMP OP THE FIRST MAN, AND YET NOT ONE OF THEM RESEMBLES HIS FELLOW. THEREFORE EVERY SINGLE PERSON IS OBLIGED TO SAY: THE WORLD WAS CREATED FOR MY SAKE.

Accepting the premise of a "Holy One" as the creator of man is as un-Objectivist as it can get. :smile:

#11 Ninth Doctor

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:34 AM

Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish?


There’s no evidence any of them had religious upbringings. How do you know that any were exposed to this Hillel quote? Is there not plenty to be found in Jewish culture that works against your implied thesis? Oh, and Isabel Paterson and Rose Wilder Lane were Christian, what about that?
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#12 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:30 AM


Does anyone think it was mere coincidence that the "first generation" Objectivists were brought up Jewish?


There’s no evidence any of them had religious upbringings. How do you know that any were exposed to this Hillel quote? Is there not plenty to be found in Jewish culture that works against your implied thesis? Oh, and Isabel Paterson and Rose Wilder Lane were Christian, what about that?


Being Jewish is more cultural than religious. Even among the unobservant there is a discernible Jewish sensibility and outlook. The Jewish "mentality" (if I may use the term) includes an inclination to go for the root of things and for the jugular. Also there is a discernible "smart ass" aspect to being Jewish. You can see it in the stand-up routines of Jewish comics.

Jews tend not to be wishy-washy. This inclination seems to be there no matter how observant or non-observant the Jewish person.

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע

#13 Reidy

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:02 AM

All standup comedians have what you describe. Bob Hope and Phyllis Diller are cases in point.

#14 Ninth Doctor

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:57 AM

Being Jewish is more cultural than religious. Even among the unobservant there is a discernible Jewish sensibility and outlook. The Jewish "mentality" (if I may use the term) includes an inclination to go for the root of things and for the jugular. Also there is a discernible "smart ass" aspect to being Jewish. You can see it in the stand-up routines of Jewish comics.

Jews tend not to be wishy-washy. This inclination seems to be there no matter how observant or non-observant the Jewish person.

This is as wishy-washy as the description of all individuals born under a given zodiac sing. Ayn Rand was a "smart ass"? Come on.

Tell you what, for every Rabbi Hillel quote you can trot out, I could pull out 100 verses from the psalms that contradict whatever good premises you think you're tracing. And I could come up with quotes from Buddha, Confucius, and the Christian tradition that bear individualist and proto-Objectivist interpretations. So what?
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#15 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:50 PM


Being Jewish is more cultural than religious. Even among the unobservant there is a discernible Jewish sensibility and outlook. The Jewish "mentality" (if I may use the term) includes an inclination to go for the root of things and for the jugular. Also there is a discernible "smart ass" aspect to being Jewish. You can see it in the stand-up routines of Jewish comics.

Jews tend not to be wishy-washy. This inclination seems to be there no matter how observant or non-observant the Jewish person.

This is as wishy-washy as the description of all individuals born under a given zodiac sing. Ayn Rand was a "smart ass"? Come on.

Tell you what, for every Rabbi Hillel quote you can trot out, I could pull out 100 verses from the psalms that contradict whatever good premises you think you're tracing. And I could come up with quotes from Buddha, Confucius, and the Christian tradition that bear individualist and proto-Objectivist interpretations. So what?


Yea. But Psalms are only sung. The real guide book is the Talmud.

For example: San Hedrin 72a: If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first.

Now think back to the Six Day War. Which book was operative then?

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע

#16 whYNOT

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:08 PM



Being Jewish is more cultural than religious. Even among the unobservant there is a discernible Jewish sensibility and outlook. The Jewish "mentality" (if I may use the term) includes an inclination to go for the root of things and for the jugular. Also there is a discernible "smart ass" aspect to being Jewish. You can see it in the stand-up routines of Jewish comics.

Jews tend not to be wishy-washy. This inclination seems to be there no matter how observant or non-observant the Jewish person.

This is as wishy-washy as the description of all individuals born under a given zodiac sing. Ayn Rand was a "smart ass"? Come on.

Tell you what, for every Rabbi Hillel quote you can trot out, I could pull out 100 verses from the psalms that contradict whatever good premises you think you're tracing. And I could come up with quotes from Buddha, Confucius, and the Christian tradition that bear individualist and proto-Objectivist interpretations. So what?


Yea. But Psalms are only sung. The real guide book is the Talmud.

For example: San Hedrin 72a: If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first.

Now think back to the Six Day War. Which book was operative then?

Ba'al Chatzaf


Umm, er - yes, I know the answer!

"The Art of War".

"Pretend inferiority, and encourage his arrogance."

"To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape."

[Sun Tzu]

Shows - nobody has a monopoly on good sense.

"He, who for the sake of learning, lowers himself by exposing his ignorance,
will ultimately be elevated." The Talmud
"To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge". Nicolaus Copernicus (An original objectivist) 1473-1543 ***No man may be smaller than his philosophy...***

#17 william.scherk

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:39 PM

For someone who is so stern about induction in the realm of say, oh, hmmmm, let me think -- oh, yeah -- Psychology, it sure seems strange to see Bob indulging in such generalizations. At least he leaves the impression this is polemic, and not a reasoned statement, less an argument.



It is such a dead end for discussion: Da Jooz, IMO. Of all the interesting things to learn about Jewish life, custom, differences, history, etcetere, to glom onto Rand and the Collective as Jooz is so sterile, to my mind.



And, though I am not a fan of Rand the philosopher in many measures, she did have more than a few smart things to saw in re racism. I think she herself was a chauvinist (her tripe about folk dances), but she certainly pointed to a home truth. You do not get to put on the mantle of greatness simply by sharing a heritage or name or family or city or team or whatever thing was not in your control.



But, hey, back to Da Jooz and what they are all about. More induction, Bob, to the max, baby!


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#18 Ninth Doctor

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:44 PM

But, hey, back to Da Jooz and what they are all about. More induction, Bob, to the max, baby!

At least you're not encouraging seymourblogger to post more. Posted Image
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#19 william.scherk

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:26 PM

One interesting video of interest to Da Jooz. In this video, the Right Reverend Bishop Long (yes, that Bishop Long) is crowned a King in his Atlanta church, with the aid of a 'rabbi.' I am sure Bob may have something to say about this. Me, I just gape in wonder ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVkoQHCXSK8&feature=player_embedded



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#20 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:58 AM

<p>One interesting video of interest to Da Jooz. In this video, the Right Reverend Bishop Long (yes, that Bishop Long) is crowned a King in his Atlanta church, with the aid of a 'rabbi.' I am sure Bob may have something to say about this. Me, I just gape in wonder ...</p>


A con man. Only G-D can anoint a King and He hasn't done so for over 2500 years. The age of Kings is long since over.

Thousands of years ago the Jewish people were warned by Samuel the Prophet about the dangers of having a King (other than G-D by way of the Commandments). See 1 Samuel 9:1 --11:13. Normally I don't do Bible thumping but this is one lesson that we all can afford to learn. On several other occasions the Prophets warned the people against Princes and Potentates. In the Torah, there was never a human King appointed over Israel. There were Cohens and Levies to run the courts and accept the animal offerings, but No Kings. When the Israelites asked Gideon to be a King, Gideon had a hissy fit. How dare you ask me or anyone to be a King over you. You already have a King, and that is G-D who made his will clearly known. And there was only one main commandment: You shall love your neighbor to the same extent and in the same way you love yourselves. R. Hillel made this point several times. Self control shall be your Sovereign. And if force there be, then only in self defense.

Beware of Kings and Potentates. They will avail you naught.

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע




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