Natural born citizen- March on Washington- May 26

[BaalChatzaf]

The natural state of things is tyranny; it is why we must fight so furiously. Most people on Earth do not think. Just envision what a staggering burden that places on mankind, and then add the weight of subjective, whimsical, mystical and altruistic tendencies. However, this doesn't mean we start attacking the Constitution, and declaring it antiquated when the reality is that Man is forever outnumbered by men.

Capital "M" Man forever outnumbered by men, you say. And if it is forever then real men are undone. You are reifying abstractions, a sure and certain perscription for brain rot and an essentially Platonic approach. Since the reality is what is, the only solution is to change the reality. In Atlas Shrugged, John Galt and his associates changed the social, economic and political reality by removing themselves. That is concrete action which produced (in the fictional context) concrete results. I am afraid Man (with a capital "M") never existed outside the heads of some people. Men (the plural) do exist. There are over six billion of them (us, actually, and you are included too).

You may be overlooking the fact that humans are extremely adaptable. That is good news and that is bad news. It is good news because we can change our procedures and alter the material conditions of the world (with the scope of physical laws). It is bad news because it means we can adapt ourselves to less than ideal conditions of life. In short, people can learn to put up with a lot of sh*t. Since most people can render themselves sufficiently comfortable in the world of altruism and since most people apparently do not really care what happens after they are dead, it looks like altruism and un-freedom has a built in advantage. Staying free requires constant struggle. Most people do not like to struggle.

You might want to consider this. Even if we win back our liberty in our lifetime (or your life time, since I am an old coot) it will be dissipated again in three generations. It is a battle that is difficult to win even for a short time and easy to loose over longer time spans. The only solution I can see is to breed a new type of human who for genetic causes is incapable of altruism and self sacrifice. We need to become Vulcans. A highly unlikely outcome since we do not nearly understand our genetic makeup. If you think of entropy as drift toward the more probable state and away from the less probable state, I think we lose in the long run. Actually we do lose in the long run. In the long run, we die.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[George H. Smith]

The natural state of things is tyranny; it is why we must fight so furiously. Most people on Earth do not think. Just envision what a staggering burden that places on mankind, and then add the weight of subjective, whimsical, mystical and altruistic tendencies. However, this doesn't mean we start attacking the Constitution, and declaring it antiquated when the reality is that Man is forever outnumbered by men.

The U.S. Constitution has both good and bad features. Libertarians and Objectivists should defend the Constitution only when a given provision is consistent with individual rights. The trick, for libertarians and Objectivists, is knowing when to take a stand. For example, if a person refuses to pay taxes, we should not criticize his action as unconstitutional, even if it is.

The Constitution does not say that a person must be born in the U.S. (or in one of its territories) to meet the qualifications for president. Rather, it says: "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President...."

The requirements for a "natural born citizen" (a phrase taken from the writings of the 17th century English jurist Lord Coke) are specified in Title 8 of the U.S. Code. One of its provisions reads:

"•Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years...."

Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, was born in Kansas in 1942. She was a U.S. citizen who lived in the U.S. for well over five years before Obama was born. Thus, according to my reading of the above provision in Title 8, Obama would still qualify as a "natural born citizen" of the U.S., even if he was born in Kenya.

For more on Title 8, see:

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

Ghs

[Prometheus]

The natural state of things is tyranny; it is why we must fight so furiously. Most people on Earth do not think. Just envision what a staggering burden that places on mankind, and then add the weight of subjective, whimsical, mystical and altruistic tendencies. However, this doesn't mean we start attacking the Constitution, and declaring it antiquated when the reality is that Man is forever outnumbered by men.

Capital "M" Man forever outnumbered by men, you say. And if it is forever then real men are undone. You are reifying abstractions, a sure and certain perscription for brain rot and an essentially Platonic approach. Since the reality is what is, the only solution is to change the reality. In Atlas Shrugged, John Galt and his associates changed the social, economic and political reality by removing themselves. That is concrete action which produced (in the fictional context) concrete results. I am afraid Man (with a capital "M") never existed outside the heads of some people. Men (the plural) do exist. There are over six billion of them (us, actually, and you are included too).

You may be overlooking the fact that humans are extremely adaptable. That is good news and that is bad news. It is good news because we can change our procedures and alter the material conditions of the world (with the scope of physical laws). It is bad news because it means we can adapt ourselves to less than ideal conditions of life. In short, people can learn to put up with a lot of sh*t. Since most people can render themselves sufficiently comfortable in the world of altruism and since most people apparently do not really care what happens after they are dead, it looks like altruism and un-freedom has a built in advantage. Staying free requires constant struggle. Most people do not like to struggle.

You might want to consider this. Even if we win back our liberty in our lifetime (or your life time, since I am an old coot) it will be dissipated again in three generations. It is a battle that is difficult to win even for a short time and easy to loose over longer time spans. The only solution I can see is to breed a new type of human who for genetic causes is incapable of altruism and self sacrifice. We need to become Vulcans. A highly unlikely outcome since we do not nearly understand our genetic makeup. If you think of entropy as drift toward the more probable state and away from the less probable state, I think we lose in the long run. Actually we do lose in the long run. In the long run, we die.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Of course the only alternative it to change what reality is. I was never advocating anything else. My observation that Man is outnumbered by men is not a Platonic, subjective abstraction. It is an objective fact that I am outnumbered by what we call "society", or what I call men. So long as collectivism is the primary philosophy on Earth, that fact will remain. Individuals do not recognize the primacy of We, but society today does. This pits any arbitrary collective against any one person.

Only until we act, and create the change to which you allude, will I no longer be outnumbered. I will then be an equal with every man, and he will have the same relationship. Genetics will not decide our fate; ideas will. Ideas which are based on truth, and which are advanced. Society must crumble for all to see the lies on which it was founded. You are right to say that our newfound freedom will quickly dissipate, but that does not mean we surrender. Those fleeting moments, in which the statist rock is rolled off the individual's chest, are worth fighting for.

As much as tyranny is the natural and entropic state, freedom is the natural state in the mind of any individual. It matters not how many times tyranny smashes freedom, for it can never be truly vanquished so long as men aspire to attain it!

Death is not a defeat. It is the immoral world disappearing from our senses. If liberty is not open to Man, vanishing from a tyrannical world is no loss at all.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Prometheus

[syrakusos]

Maybe I should apologize for fanning the flames, but a conservative friend of mine sent me this link.

The First Lady called Kenya the President's home.

Maybe she was speaking metaphorically.

Personally, I never called any place except Cleveland, Ohio, "home." In fact, yesterday, I was speaking in a foreign language with an immigrant and he asked me my ethnicity and I said, "I'm from Cleveland."

But that's me.

[Chris Grieb]

I have said this a couple of times on OL. Is there any evidence that Obama's mother was ever in Kenya? Obama's birth was announced in the Hawaiian newspapers when it occurred. Just a suggestion to who ever needs it. GET A LIFE!

[Christopher]

I've posted my opinion on this whole topic before, but I think this has nothing to do with Objectivist philosophy. If anything, Galt's issue with Obama's citizenship is anti-Objectivist and totally irrational. This whole arbitrary approach to law - hating it when it doesn't serve you but accepting it when it furthers your goals (in the absence of any ideology) - is the same self-serving nature that 95% of the population already has.

Who cares whether Obama is a fully-certified natural-born citizen! Baahh!