Nullification

[Dennis Hardin]

How many Americans are ready to bleed and die for their liberty? Some are. Are there enough?

Ba'al Chatzaf

If the federal government attempted to instigate a large scale repression of the American people comparable to what the Chinese did in the afermath of Tianamen, there would be a bureacratic bloodbath that would make Robespierre look like Little Bo Peep.

I rather enjoy the fantasy of ten thousand government employees, numerous congressmen and such like having their heads paraded about on pikes. But if the army stays with the government any uprising is in for much pain. There will be blood.

Ba'al Chatzaf

There lies the question - IF the army stays with the government... what if the army itself splits?

Consider the extent of the public outcry over the killing of 4 student protestors by the National Guard at Kent State University in May of 1970, despite the fact that a majority of people believed the protestors were to blame. If the military began killing any significant number of American protestors, the populace would revolt in massive numbers, and the military would likely collapse due to the lack of public support. Despite its ever increasing power, the state is not generally regarded as a sovereign moral authority—independent of the citizenry--in the United States.

Americans have a totally different perspective on the value of the individual human life than the super ant heap mentality so common elsewhere across the globe.

[GALTGULCH8]

Consider the extent of the public outcry over the killing of 4 student protestors by the National Guard at Kent State University in May of 1970, despite the fact that a majority of people believed the protestors were to blame. If the military began killing any significant number of American protestors, the populace would revolt in massive numbers, and the military would likely collapse due to the lack of public support. Despite its ever increasing power, the state is not generally regarded as a sovereign moral authority—independent of the citizenry--in the United States.

Americans have a totally different perspective on the value of the individual human life than the super ant heap mentality so common elsewhere across the globe.

Dennis,

I appreciate your remarks. I thought you might be interested to know about the oathkeepers. Here is a copy of their oath:

<<<" "Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, veterans, Peace Officers, and Fire Fighters who will fulfill the Oath we swore, with the support of like minded citizens who take an Oath to stand with us, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God. Our Oath is to the Constitution

Our motto is "Not on our watch!">>>

Their website is www.oathkeepers.org and I understand it is growing fast. They make the point that they would not follow an order to fire upon citizens and the like. They are evidently aware that the politicians are not keeping the oath of office which they take to uphold the Constitution. The more the merrier.

Unfortunately there are not yet enough people in this country who have grasped certain issues having to do with the limits on the Federal government which the Founders imposed by only granting certain explicit powers to the Congress.

Here is a list of the kinds of orders they will not obey:

<<<"OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

Click here to read full length version.

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep

the peace” or to “maintain control."

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.">>>

Edited October 18, 2010 by gulch8

[Selene]

Consider the extent of the public outcry over the killing of 4 student protestors by the National Guard at Kent State University in May of 1970, despite the fact that a majority of people believed the protestors were to blame. If the military began killing any significant number of American protestors, the populace would revolt in massive numbers, and the military would likely collapse due to the lack of public support. Despite its ever increasing power, the state is not generally regarded as a sovereign moral authority—independent of the citizenry--in the United States.

Americans have a totally different perspective on the value of the individual human life than the super ant heap mentality so common elsewhere across the globe.

Dennis,

I appreciate your remarks. I thought you might be interested to know about the oathkeepers. Here is a copy of their oath:

<<<" "Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, veterans, Peace Officers, and Fire Fighters who will fulfill the Oath we swore, with the support of like minded citizens who take an Oath to stand with us, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God. Our Oath is to the Constitution

Our motto is "Not on our watch!">>>

Their website is www.oathkeepers.org and I understand it is growing fast. They make the point that they would not follow an order to fire upon citizens and the like. They are evidently aware that the politicians are not keeping the oath of office which they take to uphold the Constitution. The more the merrier.

Unfortunately there are not yet enough people in this country who have grasped certain issues having to do with the limits on the Federal government which the Founders imposed by only granting certain explicit powers to the Congress.

Here is a list of the kinds of orders they will not obey:

<<<"OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

Click here to read full length version.

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep

the peace” or to “maintain control."

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.">>>

Gulch:

I disagree that there are not "enough people". I have been a member for a little over a year, but even prior to this organization forming, we were close to the pivotal one third (1/3) number.

My firm belief is we have achieved the "critical mass" needed and we are growing exponentially.

Adam

[GALTGULCH8]

Gulch:

I disagree that there are not "enough people". I have been a member for a little over a year, but even prior to this organization forming, we were close to the pivotal one third (1/3) number.

My firm belief is we have achieved the "critical mass" needed and we are growing exponentially.

Adam

Adam,

Just roughly how many people do you have reason to believe there are who are sufficiently enlightened? And what is your evidence?

I have no idea just how many Objectivists there are. Nor how many advocates of the Austrian school of economics there are. Not to mention subscribers to the various publications within the movement e.g. Reason, Freedom Daily, The Freeman etc.

There must be quite a bit of duplication regarding memberships and subscribers.

The C4L has stopped their daily counter on their site much to my dismay. They simply claim over 450 thousand members.

1/3 rd of what? Of the 310 million people in the country? Of voters?

Please clarify if you will.

gulch

[Selene]

Gulch:

I disagree that there are not "enough people". I have been a member for a little over a year, but even prior to this organization forming, we were close to the pivotal one third (1/3) number.

My firm belief is we have achieved the "critical mass" needed and we are growing exponentially.

Adam

Adam,

Just roughly how many people do you have reason to believe there are who are sufficiently enlightened? And what is your evidence?

I have no idea just how many Objectivists there are. Nor how many advocates of the Austrian school of economics there are. Not to mention subscribers to the various publications within the movement e.g. Reason, Freedom Daily, The Freeman etc.

There must be quite a bit of duplication regarding memberships and subscribers.

The C4L has stopped their daily counter on their site much to my dismay. They simply claim over 450 thousand members.

1/3 rd of what? Of the 310 million people in the country? Of voters?

Please clarify if you will.

gulch

Gulch:

I am using as my base approximately 100,000,000 to 120,000,000 voters in the last Presidential as an arbitrary marker.

My belief is that there are at least 1/3 who have a solid grasp of the key issue of "...the limits on the Federal government which the Founders imposed by only granting certain explicit powers to the Congress."

Now, how much and how deep that grasp goes is debatable, but I think it runs really deep. People who self identify as conservatives alone are close to that number. Military, police and fire families. Hunters, fishermen and gun owners. There are many more "groups", but essentially there is a deeply rooted understanding of the limits of central power that certainly is a third of that number.

Adam

[GALTGULCH8]

Gulch:

I disagree that there are not "enough people". I have been a member for a little over a year, but even prior to this organization forming, we were close to the pivotal one third (1/3) number.

My firm belief is we have achieved the "critical mass" needed and we are growing exponentially.

Adam

Adam,

Just roughly how many people do you have reason to believe there are who are sufficiently enlightened? And what is your evidence?

I have no idea just how many Objectivists there are. Nor how many advocates of the Austrian school of economics there are. Not to mention subscribers to the various publications within the movement e.g. Reason, Freedom Daily, The Freeman etc.

There must be quite a bit of duplication regarding memberships and subscribers.

The C4L has stopped their daily counter on their site much to my dismay. They simply claim over 450 thousand members.

1/3 rd of what? Of the 310 million people in the country? Of voters?

Please clarify if you will.

gulch

Gulch:

I am using as my base approximately 100,000,000 to 120,000,000 voters in the last Presidential as an arbitrary marker.

My belief is that there are at least 1/3 who have a solid grasp of the key issue of "...the limits on the Federal government which the Founders imposed by only granting certain explicit powers to the Congress."

Now, how much and how deep that grasp goes is debatable, but I think it runs really deep. People who self identify as conservatives alone are close to that number. Military, police and fire families. Hunters, fishermen and gun owners. There are many more "groups", but essentially there is a deeply rooted understanding of the limits of central power that certainly is a third of that number.

Adam

Adam,

So even if that were true it is an admission that we are outnumbered!

Besides, opposition, read statists, will argue that cutting entitlements will be harsh which would guarantee that those on the receiving end will vote in the statists, maybe. Unless they think of the children and grandchildren, and are willing to make personal sacrifice for their sake.

In the end, if that is true, we will depend on the altruistic nature of those who don't really accept our view.

By the way, great videos on http://inflation.us/videos.html

Let me know what you think.

gulch