A Modern Day Muslim Scopes Trial

[Selene]

"Dutch court will hear case against far-right MP

Wed Feb 3, 2010 7:38am EST

Related News

• Dutch far-right MP on trial over anti-Islam remarksWed, Jan 20 2010
• Trading emotionally? Dutch device warns of stressTue, Oct 13 2009

AMSTERDAM, Feb 3 (Reuters) - An Amsterdam court said on Wednesday it will hear the case against right-wing Dutch MP Geert Wilders on charges of inciting hatred and discrimination against Muslims, rejecting his request to be judged in the Supreme Court."

Dutch far-right MP on trial over anti-Islam remarks

Aaron Gray-Block AMSTERDAM Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:56pm EST AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Right-wing Dutch MP Geert Wilders said on Wednesday that freedom of speech in his country was threatened, as he went on trial in Amsterdam charged with inciting hatred and discrimination against Muslims.

World

The Freedom Party leader, who has faced death threats over his political views, made the film "Fitna" in 2008 which accused the Koran of inciting violence and mixed images of terrorist attacks with quotations from the Islamic holy book.

He was also charged because of his outspoken remarks in the media, such as an opinion piece in a Dutch daily in which he compared Islam to fascism and the Koran to Adolf Hitler's book "Mein Kampf".

"I believe in my heart and soul that freedom in the Netherlands is being threatened," Wilders told the court. "It is not only our right, but our obligation as free people to speak out against every ideology that restricts freedom."

In a five-minute speech to the court in which he also quoted Thomas Jefferson, author of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, Wilders predicted future generations would ask how "we in 2010, in this place, in this room" defended freedom.

The prosecutor, reacting to the many complaints about Wilders, originally said he was protected by the right to free speech, but a court overruled him and ordered that Wilders be charged. The MP faces a maximum of one year and three months imprisonment if convicted on both counts.

Both prosecution and defense said the case lies at the heart of the constitutional state, exploring the line between the right to freedom of speech and the ban on discrimination in the traditionally tolerant Netherlands.

Defense lawyer Bram Moszkowicz challenged the court's jurisdiction and the prosecution's case, saying that the Supreme Court should handle the case because Wilders was a politician.

"Wilders has made all his comments in his capacity as a member of parliament," Moszkowicz said, adding that Wilders had the right to comment on developments in society.

Prosecutor Birgit van Roessel said Wilders' remarks must be tested against the "existing legal framework."

COMBATIVE

A fierce opponent of Islam in European culture, Wilders -- with his trademark blonde hair -- is popular among Dutch voters worried about immigration and its impact on Dutch society.

The Freedom Party became the second-largest Dutch party in the European Parliament last year, and recent polls indicated it could become the biggest party in the Dutch parliament in national elections due in May 2011.

"I remain combative and still convinced that this political process will only lead to an acquittal," Wilders has said.

Outside the court, a crowd of protesters gathered behind police barriers to voice support for Wilders, carrying banners saying "Freedom Yes" and "Wilders trial, a political trial".

An anti-racism group placed 100 comments by Wilders online at www.watwilwilders.nl to back its allegation that he is responsible for xenophobia and discrimination and that his remarks are not only criticism of a religion.

Official figures show Muslims made up about 5 percent of the Dutch population in 2007-08.

The court must now rule on the challenge to its jurisdiction and adjourned the case to February 3 when it will decide how to proceed.

Besides expert witnesses, Moszkowicz plans to call Mohammed Bouyeri, the convicted killer of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh. Wilders has said Bouyeri is "living proof" that Islam inspires violence, but the prosecution is opposed to Bouyeri giving evidence."

Folks:

What will happen in Europe if this modern hero is acquitted?

Adam

Post Script:

Apparently my access to the Portal Tab does not bring up anything but white space under the banner.

My suspicion is that it is Ms. Xray's aura attempting to "game" the program as Michael has mentioned. Therefore, we may all be present for the first "Objectivist Miracle"!

There it is an aura hitting the programatic wall!

Edited February 3, 2010 by Selene

[ValueChaser]

Adam asks, "What will happen in Europe if this modern hero is acquitted?" If he is acquitted, hopefully it will make some politicians and regular people in some western European countries question the laws that prohibit the denial of the Holocaust--for what is freedom of speech but the freedom to give one's thoughts a material form in language, so long as one is not using the property of one's respective opponent to do so? The politician's supporters who are saying that this is a political crime are right to say it, because he is being threatened with force just for what he expresses in words. In terms of the content of his message, I just wish he understands that while Islam is the problem child of religions now, the belief--in any religion--that infidels possess no human rights should be treated as such is the fundamental problem in religion-motivated crimes.

[Selene]

Adam asks, "What will happen in Europe if this modern hero is acquitted?" If he is acquitted, hopefully it will make some politicians and regular people in some western European countries question the laws that prohibit the denial of the Holocaust--for what is freedom of speech but the freedom to give one's thoughts a material form in language, so long as one is not using the property of one's respective opponent to do so? The politician's supporters who are saying that this is a political crime are right to say it, because he is being threatened with force just for what he expresses in words. In terms of the content of his message, I just wish he understands that while Islam is the problem child of religions now, the belief--in any religion--that infidels possess no human rights should be treated as such is the fundamental problem in religion-motivated crimes.

I agree in part, but I have a few definitional questions.

Is a "religious motivated murder" the same as a "hate motivated murder", e.g., a "hate crime"?

Is a murder more or less of a murder because the criminal had a "specifically legislated motive"?

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

[quote name='ValueChaser' date='03 February 2010 - 03:15 PM' I just wish he understands that while Islam is the problem child of religions now, the belief--in any religion--that infidels possess no human rights should be treated as such is the fundamental problem in religion-motivated crimes.

Islam is not a religion. It is a psychosis.

The religion has two kinds of adherents --- deluded and violently insane.

Proof: Read the daily newspapers. Not a single day goes off without the new Muslim Call to Prayer: The explosion of the suicide bomb or the I.E.D.

Every day: Allah hu'akbar --- Boom. Allah hu'akbar --- Boom. There will be no end to it until either the dar al Harb is ended or the dar al Sala'am is ended.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

I agree in part, but I have a few definitional questions.

Is a "religious motivated murder" the same as a "hate motivated murder", e.g., a "hate crime"?

Is a murder more or less of a murder because the criminal had a "specifically legislated motive"?

Adam

Murder is murder, regardless of the motive. The rules of evidence and the punishments should be the same regardless of motive.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

I agree in part, but I have a few definitional questions.

Is a "religious motivated murder" the same as a "hate motivated murder", e.g., a "hate crime"?

Is a murder more or less of a murder because the criminal had a "specifically legislated motive"?

Adam

Murder is murder, regardless of the motive. The rules of evidence and the punishments should be the same regardless of motive.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Psst Bob I know that you know the answer.

Geez!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Islam is not a religion. It is a psychosis.

The religion has two kinds of adherents --- deluded and violently insane.

By this meaning, so are Christianity and Judaism.

This is bigotry.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I moved this topic from "Politics" to here, but I left a link behind.

I do hope we can have an intelligent discussion about this issue. Frankly, it's too important for bigotry, which ultimately gets ignored after irritating good and bad people alike.

Michael

[ValueChaser]

Adam asks, "What will happen in Europe if this modern hero is acquitted?" If he is acquitted, hopefully it will make some politicians and regular people in some western European countries question the laws that prohibit the denial of the Holocaust--for what is freedom of speech but the freedom to give one's thoughts a material form in language, so long as one is not using the property of one's respective opponent to do so? The politician's supporters who are saying that this is a political crime are right to say it, because he is being threatened with force just for what he expresses in words. In terms of the content of his message, I just wish he understands that while Islam is the problem child of religions now, the belief--in any religion--that infidels possess no human rights should be treated as such is the fundamental problem in religion-motivated crimes.

Adam asks:

Is a "religious motivated murder" the same as a "hate motivated murder", e.g., a "hate crime"?

Not to me, content or intensity of motive should neither mitigate nor exaggerate the actions of a particular murder.

Adam asks:

Is a murder more or less of a murder because the criminal had a "specifically legislated motive"?

Not to me, but some U.S. jurisdictions are starting a tradition to the contrary. I was simply trying to illustrate the practical effects of Islam and Christianity when one takes their admonishments against infidels seriously and takes up weapons against them, i.e., when one reads in these texts the definitions of individual rights and then infringes on the rights of the "subhuman class" by killing some of its members; some crimes are not committed out of a religious context and I did not want to pinpoint the secularly motivated ones. . .because I wanted to reference crimes that are committed not only by people who are motivated by some or all of the ideas of Islam when they commit crimes, but also from other religions who are performing the same crime simply because their religious text "said so."

Edited February 4, 2010 by ValueChaser

[Selene]

Or, like those nice friendly secular mass murderers like

Stalin pre and post 61,000,000

Pol Pot 2,000,000 +

Mao 57,000,000 to 75,000,000

Fidel 1,000,000 +

and Bulgaria, Rumania, East Germany and on and on.

just pick a marxist secular government because it feels much better when you are being slaughtered for the workers of the world...

don't ya think?

Adam

sorry semi-rant not directed at you

[ValueChaser]

Your subtitle to the post reads "On what day will the 'peaceful' European Muslim riot?" I think that the Amsterdam government is motivated less by fear of Muslim riots and more by political correctness. I am fairly sure that Muslims in Amsterdam see legal things that go against their religion all the time, and resign themselves to it. I don't remember with certainty whether or not Muslims in Western Europe rioted when the cartoons of Mohammed were published, but I beleive they didn't, they only protested. Correct me if I'm wrong about what went on at that time.

[Selene]

Your subtitle to the post reads "On what day will the 'peaceful' European Muslim riot?" I think that the Amsterdam government is motivated less by fear of Muslim riots and more by political correctness. I am fairly sure that Muslims in Amsterdam see legal things that go against their religion all the time, and resign themselves to it. I don't remember with certainty whether or not Muslims in Western Europe rioted when the cartoons of Mohammed were published, but I beleive they didn't, they only protested. Correct me if I'm wrong about what went on at that time.

I ran a quick search - there was more, but probably DG can give us a better idea.

Posted Oct 16, 2007 by ■ dpa news Moroccan-Dutch youths rioted in Amsterdam overnight Tuesday. A group of dozens of youths in the Slotervaart neighbourhood in western Amsterdam set cars on fire, damaged several other cars and threw stones through the windows of a police station. Slotervaart, Amsterdam Moroccan-Dutch youths rioted in Amsterdam overnight Tuesday. A group of dozens of youths in the Slotervaart neighbourhood in western Amsterdam set cars on fire, damaged several other cars and threw stones through the windows of a police station. The riots followed the death of 22-year old Dutch-born Bilal Bajaka, of Moroccan descent. On Sunday, Bajaka entered the police station of Slotervaart, stabbing two police officers with a knife. Although having sustained serious injuries, one of the officers, a policewoman, shot and killed her alleged attacker on the spot. The two police officers were later brought to the hospital where their condition was described as "serious but stable." The police and Amsterdam municipality officials announced at a press conference Monday that a national investigation had been launched into the incident. The police also added that Bajaka had a criminal record. From the age of 13 up to his death on Sunday, the police said, Bajaka had been involved in several major criminal incidents, including armed robberies and a series of violent incidents. He was allegedly part of a criminal gang. In addition, police said he was personally acquainted with Mohammed Bouyeri, the convicted killer of the late film director Theo van Gogh, as well as with other Moroccan-Dutch terrorist suspects. Mohammed Bouyeri and the others allegedly involved in terrorist activities also came from the Slotervaart neighbourhood. The atmosphere in Slotervaart was grim following the police press conference on Monday. Moroccan-Dutch residents of Slotervaart complained to reporters they were "sick and tired" of continuous "negative news reports" about fellow Moroccan-Dutch, adding they felt increasingly stigmatized. Several television reporters who came to report on the fatal incident at the police station were threatened by Moroccan-Dutch youths. Responding to the riots, Ahmed Marcouch, Moroccan-born chairman of the Slotervaart city council, said "it is always the same horrible people spoiling things for everyone." dpa rl fs

Edited February 4, 2010 by Selene

[BaalChatzaf]

Your subtitle to the post reads "On what day will the 'peaceful' European Muslim riot?" I think that the Amsterdam government is motivated less by fear of Muslim riots and more by political correctness. I am fairly sure that Muslims in Amsterdam see legal things that go against their religion all the time, and resign themselves to it. I don't remember with certainty whether or not Muslims in Western Europe rioted when the cartoons of Mohammed were published, but I beleive they didn't, they only protested. Correct me if I'm wrong about what went on at that time.

I ran a quick search - there was more, but probably DG can give us a better idea.

Posted Oct 16, 2007 by ■ dpa news Moroccan-Dutch youths rioted in Amsterdam overnight Tuesday. A group of dozens of youths in the Slotervaart neighbourhood in western Amsterdam set cars on fire, damaged several other cars and threw stones through the windows of a police station. Slotervaart, Amsterdam Moroccan-Dutch youths rioted in Amsterdam overnight Tuesday. A group of dozens of youths in the Slotervaart neighbourhood in western Amsterdam set cars on fire, damaged several other cars and threw stones through the windows of a police station. The riots followed the death of 22-year old Dutch-born Bilal Bajaka, of Moroccan descent. On Sunday, Bajaka entered the police station of Slotervaart, stabbing two police officers with a knife. Although having sustained serious injuries, one of the officers, a policewoman, shot and killed her alleged attacker on the spot. The two police officers were later brought to the hospital where their condition was described as "serious but stable." The police and Amsterdam municipality officials announced at a press conference Monday that a national investigation had been launched into the incident. The police also added that Bajaka had a criminal record. From the age of 13 up to his death on Sunday, the police said, Bajaka had been involved in several major criminal incidents, including armed robberies and a series of violent incidents. He was allegedly part of a criminal gang. In addition, police said he was personally acquainted with Mohammed Bouyeri, the convicted killer of the late film director Theo van Gogh, as well as with other Moroccan-Dutch terrorist suspects. Mohammed Bouyeri and the others allegedly involved in terrorist activities also came from the Slotervaart neighbourhood. The atmosphere in Slotervaart was grim following the police press conference on Monday. Moroccan-Dutch residents of Slotervaart complained to reporters they were "sick and tired" of continuous "negative news reports" about fellow Moroccan-Dutch, adding they felt increasingly stigmatized. Several television reporters who came to report on the fatal incident at the police station were threatened by Moroccan-Dutch youths. Responding to the riots, Ahmed Marcouch, Moroccan-born chairman of the Slotervaart city council, said "it is always the same horrible people spoiling things for everyone." dpa rl fs

There goes your Muslim. Different mountain, different god.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Robert Campbell]

Value Chaser,

There are fairly frequent Muslim riots in different parts of Europe.

Our mainstream media would rather not report them.

In his book Surrender: Appeasing Islam, Sacrificing Freedom, Bruce Bawer says

Riots gripped immigrant suburbs in France in the autumn of 2005, but weeks passed before most mainstream American media mentioned them—and when they finally did, they either covered up or drastically de-emphasized the rioters' Muslim identity. Few cited the cries of "Allahu akbar" that filled the French suburban streets. (p. 65)

Robert Campbell

[Chris Grieb]

Everyone: Just keep repeating Islam is a religion of PEACE. It will save you till a follower of the religion cuts your throat.