Ayn Rand and the World She Made

[Dragonfly]

May I ask a silly question? What does the amount or seriousness of Frank O'connor's drinking have to do with the correctness or importance of Ayn Rand's philosophy?

It reflects badly on Rand, as the link between his drinking and her behavior (like having an affair with a younger man for which he had to sanction, taking him away from his beloved farm while claiming that he hated that life there) is too obvious (he once exclaimed "I want to leave her! But where would I go?"). But some people think that Rand should be perfect according to her own philosophy (otherwise the philosophy would be erroneous and taking away one element makes the whole edifice crumble), therefore it cannot be true that she hurt Frank and therefore his drinking must be, if not denied completely, at least downplayed considerably, so that the link between that and Rand's behavior can be denied. That's the reason that we see this interminable discussion.

[Selene]

May I ask a silly question? What does the amount or seriousness of Frank O'connor's drinking have to do with the correctness or importance of Ayn Rand's philosophy?

It reflects badly on Rand, as the link between his drinking and her behavior (like having an affair with a younger man for which he had to sanction, taking him away from his beloved farm while claiming that he hated that life there) is too obvious (he once exclaimed "I want to leave her! But where would I go?"). But some people think that Rand should be perfect according to her own philosophy (otherwise the philosophy would be erroneous and taking away one element makes the whole edifice crumble), therefore it cannot be true that she hurt Frank and therefore his drinking must be, if not denied completely, at least downplayed considerably, so that the link between that and Rand's behavior can be denied. That's the reason that we see this interminable discussion.

DG:

Ahh, the not very objective "O"bjectivists. One of the fascinating observations that I made in my analysis of the Objectivist movement.

What a waste of time and energy.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ellen Stuttle didn't cut out the sentence about Frank's father suffering from arteriosclerosis. The Valliantquoating, well, now Moellerquoating, was strictly Michael Moeller's.

Robert,

I wrote that in the middle of the night and I could have sworn that it was missing in Stuttle's post.

Since you mentioned it, I looked just now and facts are facts. I stand corrected.

Thank you for the correction.

(btw - My low opinion of her is pretty obvious. But I don't believe she changed her passage to include what I pointed out was missing. The error was mine. I don't believe she is capable—yet—of doing what Valliant did on Wikipedia with his sockpuppet brigade, or what ARI has been doing with eliminating Branden references in Rand's works and generally bowdlerizing the unpublished stuff when they finally publish it.)

Michael

[Jonathan]

May I ask a silly question? What does the amount or seriousness of Frank O'connor's drinking have to do with the correctness or importance of Ayn Rand's philosophy?

It reflects badly on Rand, as the link between his drinking and her behavior (like having an affair with a younger man for which he had to sanction, taking him away from his beloved farm while claiming that he hated that life there) is too obvious (he once exclaimed "I want to leave her! But where would I go?"). But some people think that Rand should be perfect according to her own philosophy (otherwise the philosophy would be erroneous and taking away one element makes the whole edifice crumble), therefore it cannot be true that she hurt Frank and therefore his drinking must be, if not denied completely, at least downplayed considerably, so that the link between that and Rand's behavior can be denied. That's the reason that we see this interminable discussion.

I've always thought that it's interesting that the same persnickety, nit-pickety standards aren't applied to anyone other than Frank. In fact, the people who get most upset about the idea that Frank is reported to have abused alcohol, and who demand more witnesses and more proof, have no problem accepting undocumented accusations that others, like, say, William F. Buckley or Mario Lanza, were serious alcoholics (my personal theory regarding Lanza is that he didn't abuse alcohol at all, but only gargled with booze to stimulate his vocal cords, which I think is much more plausible than Frank having rows of empty liquor bottles because he used them to mix his paints).

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dragonfly,

Basically I agree with you. But there is another, much more petty reason this thing about Frank's drinking drags on.

Look at who the people who argue about this with real passion are.

Objectivist Liar and Hater Lindsay Perigo

The Grande Dame of (whatever) Ellen Stuttle

Bully in Training Michael Moeller

(Some minions over on SLOP, but they don't count.)

What do these people stand to gain by this?

I could spell it all out, but it essentially boils down to one word: audience.

They want an audience to present their sick, twisted view of life to. One of the best ways to get an audience is to scapegoat someone (like Barbara). Everybody will rubberneck at a car wreck on the highway. But behind the vanity and the yelling and the nitpicking and the pretzel reasoning, I believe there is a real urge for power. Bullying kind of power. Not the power to build anything of value (these folks don't). They want the power to destroy others.

I have been told offline that Perigo has great musical tastes and this is one of his redeeming factors. He does like some great music when he's not acting like a groupie, but he also gushes over a lot of schlock. But supposing it was all great. That doesn't mean much. Google "desert island discs" and take a look at what Hitler had in his secret stash: "Tchaikovsky, Borodin and Rachmaninov" (see, for example, a Times article here). Apparently Hitler even had "value swoons," to use Perigo's silly term for giving yourself over to an artistic experience, when listening to great music.

So what does it really mean to like great music? Well... it means you like great music. Not much else if you start looking at the rest of the human being, especially character. Or did Hitler have a "heroic sense of life"?

The rest of the world just doesn't care all that much about Frank's alcohol problem. Look around the Internet and see if you encounter the monkey-shines you see going on over at SLOP about this.

Michael

[Xray]

May I ask a silly question? What does the amount or seriousness of Frank O'connor's drinking have to do with the correctness or importance of Ayn Rand's philosophy?

It reflects badly on Rand, as the link between his drinking and her behavior (like having an affair with a younger man for which he had to sanction, taking him away from his beloved farm while claiming that he hated that life there) is too obvious (he once exclaimed "I want to leave her! But where would I go?"). But some people think that Rand should be perfect according to her own philosophy (otherwise the philosophy would be erroneous and taking away one element makes the whole edifice crumble), therefore it cannot be true that she hurt Frank and therefore his drinking must be, if not denied completely, at least downplayed considerably, so that the link between that and Rand's behavior can be denied. That's the reason that we see this interminable discussion.

Imo by claiming that Frank O'Connor was "John Galt on strike", Rand did a mental makeover of her spouse to justify him as her husband.

[Neil Parille]

Jonathan,

I agree with the points you've made in two previous posts. Apparently exhibiting signs of being affected by alcohol in the morning can't constitute evidence of a drinking problem to Ellen since we don't know the quantity of alcohol consumed.

In any event, I would like to know what people such Don Ventura and others have said about Frank's drinking. I hope whoever has possession of Barbara's material would put it on the web, just as I hope the ARI gets around to publishing 100 Voices.

-Neil Parile

Edited January 9, 2010 by Neil Parille

[9thdoctor]

It's also possible that Frank told Ventura that he had been drinking heavily since the 50s.

Indeed, in vino veritas.

It seems the only handful of hay Ellen has is that Barbara introduced the topic of St. Francisco’s excess drinking during the mid-fifties part of her narrative, coinciding with The Affair, when her main source met him in the early sixties. Heard of a flashforward or foreshadowing? Or are we to believe he started drinking in the ‘60’s, for no discernable reason? Could be, I guess. After Rand stopped the extra-marital sex maybe she filled the gap by making extra demands on her husband, and his reaction was to hit the bottle. Ok, but Barbara’s story makes better sense to this reader.

FWIW I’ve taken to calling him St. Francisco in reaction to the “hero-diminution” talk coming out of the leper colony, I don’t think of it or intend it as mockery of the man. He called himself Francisco the Lobbyist, after all, so this is an upgrade of sorts.

[Robert Campbell]

Most telling from my point of view is the absence of complaints by ARIan insders.

Bob Mayhew panned Jennifer Burns' biography, employing that now-infamous analogy go to Judas writing the biography of Jesus, but said nothing about Frank O'Connor's drinking.

Harry Binswanger panned Jennifer Burns' biography to his loyalty-oath-signing audience, then condemned Anne Heller's biography in public. Not a word about Frank O'Connor's drinking.

Nobody's been protesting lately, except Lindsay Perigo and those who expect to profit from sucking up to him.

Robert Campbell

[jeffrey smith]

I have been told offline that Perigo has great musical tastes and this is one of his redeeming factors. He does like some great music when he's not acting like a groupie, but he also gushes over a lot of schlock. But supposing it was all great. That doesn't mean much. Google "desert island discs" and take a look at what Hitler had in his secret stash: "Tchaikovsky, Borodin and Rachmaninov" (see, for example, a Times article here). Apparently Hitler even had "value swoons," to use Perigo's silly term for giving yourself over to an artistic experience, when listening to great music.

Michael

Actually, his taste in music is a good reflection of his personality. He is addicted to Romantic warhorses like Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov, and keeps touting artists who have been dead for a number of years, to say the least (most notably, Il Lanza and Der Wunderlich); he seems to have very little interest in exploring anything new--either new artists, new composers, or even works by older composers he is not familiar with. This is a man who called Tallis' Spem in Alium (the motet for 40 voices, each with an independent vocal line, one of the greatest musical pieces of the Renaissance) "anal retentive". Ellen Stuttle was wont to take him to task on his apparent lack of real musical knowledge*, which would usually result in him taking pride in exhibiting his musical ignorance. I have always imagined him as having a sexual fantasy that involved himself, Tchaikovsky and Van Cliburn engaging in--well, never mind.

I think his exaltation of romantic music is simply another dimension of his Randolatry (or perhaps he simply wants to attribute to Rand his own tastes in music, although they seem to closely match). Never mind that Rand's description of what romantic music should be is impossibly vague. Perigo likes to cite the description of Halley's piano concerto Rand included in Atlas Shrugged. Problem is, when you look at the description, it describes not just the great Romantic works, but also a lot else that Rand presumably would not want tagged as "great Romantic music." For one thing, it describes most of Soviet or Socialist Realism--Shostakovich's 12th Symphony, for example, which is subtitled "The Year 1917" and meant to depict the Bolshevik Revolution with emphasis on Lenin in musical terms. I would seriously doubt Rand would want that on the concert programs of Galt's Gulch, but her verbal description of the concerto fits the Twelfth to a T. And he shows no sign of understanding the complexity involved in writing good music. Counterpoint is not for him.

His whole thing about "value swooning" is actually derivative from Western occultism; those who are curious can research sex magick and the role of orgasm in tantra. But unlike Perigo, the occultists had specific goals in mind when cultivating their orgasms; Perigo seems to have no clue about what to do in that department.

Jeffrey S.

*I should mention that during the time I was active on SOLOP, Ellen was quite ready to challenge Perigo, and even knock him upside the head a few times.

Edited January 10, 2010 by jeffrey smith

[Greybird]

The new project to which this Website is clearly being dedicated — the re-aiming, or hijacking, of every thread to serve duty in the war between MSK and Perigo — is clearly succeeding.

I, for one, don't give the slightest sliver of a damn about this thread making reports as to what Perigo and his cronies think of Anne Heller's work. Mainly because they're not posting here.

When this thread reverts to being an unexciting pumpkin and actually gets back to Heller, and the four footmen revert to being mice, have them come wake me up.

[Chris Grieb]

Most telling from my point of view is the absence of complaints by ARIan insders.

Bob Mayhew panned Jennifer Burns' biography, employing that now-infamous analogy go to Judas writing the biography of Jesus, but said nothing about Frank O'Connor's drinking.

Harry Binswanger panned Jennifer Burns' biography to his loyalty-oath-signing audience, then condemned Anne Heller's biography in public. Not a word about Frank O'Connor's drinking.

Nobody's been protesting lately, except Lindsay Perigo and those who expect to profit from sucking up to him.

Robert Campbell

Robert; I think as has been said on other occasions silence speaks volumes. I wish someone would ask Mayhew or Binswanger did Frank have a drinking problem. I suspect if the questioner is not asked to leave you would never get an answer.

[Robert Campbell]

Steve,

There are exactly two sources of opposition to Anne Heller's work:

(1) The leaders at the Ayn Rand Institute and their acolytes (e.g., Drs. Peikoff, Binswanger, and Mayhew)

(2) Lindsay Perigo, Jim Valliant, and whatever is left of their coterie.

I haven't noticed you saying we shouldn't refer to Binswanger or Mayhew because they never post here.

Robert Campbell

[Neil Parille]

Robert,

As you know, Valliant has said that won't (or perhaps can't) comment on Heller's book until the paperbook version (if ever).

I imagine that he isn't happy with it, because it sides with theBrandens on almost every issue disputed by him.

As far as silence speaking volumes, I wonder if the delay in publishing 100 Voices has anything to do with a Leonard Peikoff Institute versus archive dispute. It looks like the book was cited both by Heller and Burns for some negative stuff.

-Neil Parille

Edited January 10, 2010 by Neil Parille

[9thdoctor]

The new project to which this Website is clearly being dedicated — the re-aiming, or hijacking, of every thread to serve duty in the war between MSK and Perigo — is clearly succeeding.

He's on to us! Circle the wagons! Deny, Deny!!

When this thread reverts to being an unexciting pumpkin and actually gets back to Heller, and the four footmen revert to being mice, have them come wake me up.

A bizarre reference to Cinderella, best I can tell. Not an illustrative metaphor, in any event. Look up Rip Van Winkle, and take a cue. Sweet dreams Schoolmarm.

I wish someone would ask Mayhew or Binswanger did Frank have a drinking problem. I suspect if the questioner is not asked to leave you would never get an answer.

That’s been answered definitively by His Holiness, who once related a tale of St. Francisco overtipping, on just one occasion mind you, and defied a drunk to survive however briefly in “that apartment”.

As you know, Valliant has said that won't (or perhaps can't) comment on Heller's book until the paperbook version (if ever).

And when will the Burns/Valliant symposium go forward?

[Selene]

9th

Was that overtipping as at a restaurant or tipping over as in falling down drunk?

I assume the former.

Thanks for the tipped hat icon.

Adam

such children on OL using icons you would think that a follower of Rand would never allow themselves a sense of humor

[9thdoctor]

Was that overtipping as at a restaurant or tipping over as in falling down drunk?

I assume the former.

Someone (probably Robert Campbell) transcribed His Holiness's comments on PAR from '86 or '87, its on this site somewhere. He meant overtipping at a restaurant.

Thanks for the tipped hat icon.

Always a pleasure. At some point I'll post again to the "Soft Drink" thread, and I have some good ones that belong in there. Oh hell, here's one for the road:

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Steve,

I don't see how this thread has been hijacked by criticizing prominent vicious attackers of Anne Heller, and by extension, Barbara Branden, especially at the time they are attacking.

I look, but it's just not happening.

People are discussing Anne Heller's book and its reception.

And they keep discussing Anne Heller's book and its reception.

And they will most likely keep discussing Anne Heller's book and its reception.

Frankly, I don't see you discussing Anne Heller's book and its reception very much at all. The one post you did make about it, you mentioned you did not read it, but from reports, conclude that it contains too much information of the type you don't like. In fact, you mentioned that such information will make you go mad.

So why are you even reading this thread?

I, for one, don't want to see you go mad. And you don't come off as even remotely interested in Anne Heller's book and its reception.

But I see you do post about that which you complain others post about.

Sorry, there no monopolies on certain topics by certain posters on OL. Everybody can comment about Objectivist Liar and Hater Linday Perigo if they wish. You do not have that exclusive privilege.

Enjoy your snooze...

Michael

[Neil Parille]

No word on the when the Symposium will begin. Perigo said a while ago that Jennifer Burns had a family issue that would delay it.

-Neil Parille

[Robert Campbell]

His Holiness's remark about St. Francisco can be seen here:

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7802

There's been no follow-up for the past 22 years.

Robert Campbell

[9thdoctor]

No word on the when the Symposium will begin. Perigo said a while ago that Jennifer Burns had a family issue that would delay it.

-Neil Parille

Yes I know. I should have phrased it as a gentlemen’s wager, whether it will ever take place.

His Holiness's remark about St. Francisco can be seen here:

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7802

There's been no follow-up for the past 22 years.

Robert Campbell

Thank you Brother Robert.

FWIW I’m thinking a better parallel with Catholic hierarchy would have St. Francisco instead in the place of the Paraclete (the Holy Spirit). Nah, Sainthood’s good enough, mustn't get too elaborate, or they'll start arguing over Filioque and the body count will be catastrophic.

Sister Ellen found the following, and provided a link to the SLOP Brethren, I’m providing it here. It’s a lengthy essay about the Heller book by Mark & Erika Holzer, I’ve only read the 1st page so no comment yet.

http://henrymarkholzer.blogspot.com/

There’s a pdf to download.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Ninth Doctor

[Robert Campbell]

ND,

A direct link to the download for Henry Mark Holzer's review of Anne Heller's book is here:

http://www.henrymarkholzer.citymax.com/f/ruminations.pdf

This is part autobiographical reflection, part essay review. Definitely worth a read.

Robert Campbell

[Chris Grieb]

The Holzer's piece is really interesting. Thanks for the link.

[Neil Parille]

I think it is very interesting and has some facts not found in Heller's book.

Although the Holzers were there for only a relatively small amount of time compared to others, they apparently don't find some of the negative things reported by Heller (such as Rand's involvement in the Kent inquisition) out of character.

I do think Mr. Holzer protests too much about his involvement in TWIMC and the copyright issue.

-Neil Parille

Edited January 10, 2010 by Neil Parille

[Chris Grieb]

I think it is very interesting and has some facts not found in Heller's book.

Although the Holzers were there for only a relatively small amount of time compared to others, they apparently don't find some of the negative things reported by Heller (such as Rand's involvement in the Kent inquisition) out of character.

I do think Mr. Holzer protests too much about his involvement in TWIMC and the copyright issue.

-Neil Parille

Neil; W

On the question of the copyrights I was told that Ayn Rand tried to keep Nathaniel Branden from replying to TWIMC by withhold his copyrights. I wonder if she may have been dissuaded by another attorney. I don't think Ayn Rand would have wanted to answer questions from Branden's attorney. Any question can be asked with objection being made by the attorney. The question and answer made be thrown by the judge but the judge does not do this until long after the question has been asked.