Report: Bush mulled sending troops into Buffalo

[Christopher]

Report: Bush mulled sending troops into Buffalo

WASHINGTON – The Bush administration in 2002 considered sending U.S. troops into a Buffalo, N.Y., suburb to arrest a group of terror suspects in what would have been a nearly unprecedented use of military power, The New York Times reported.

Vice President Dick Cheney and several other Bush advisers at the time strongly urged that the military be used to apprehend men who were suspected of plotting with al Qaida, who later became known as the Lackawanna Six, the Times reported on its Web site Friday night. It cited former administration officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The proposal advanced to at least one-high level administration meeting, before President George W. Bush decided against it.

Dispatching troops into the streets is virtually unheard of. The Constitution and various laws restrict the military from being used to conduct domestic raids and seize property.

According to the Times, Cheney and other Bush aides said an Oct. 23, 2001, Justice Department memo gave broad presidential authority that allowed Bush to use the domestic use of the military against al-Qaida if it was justified on the grounds of national security, rather than law enforcement.

Among those arguing for the military use besides Cheney were his legal adviser David S. Addington and some senior Defense Department officials, the Times reported.

Opposing the idea were Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser; John B. Bellinger III, the top lawyer at the National Security Council; FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III; and Michael Chertoff, then the head of the Justice Department's criminal division.

Bush ultimately nixed the proposal and ordered the FBI to make the arrests in Lackawanna. The men were subsequently arrested and pleaded guilty to terrorism-related charges.

Scott L. Silliman, a Duke University law professor specializing in national security law, told the Times that a U.S. president had not deployed the active-duty military on domestic soil in a law enforcement capacity, without specific statutory authority, since the Civil War.

[BaalChatzaf]

Report: Bush mulled sending troops into Buffalo

WASHINGTON – The Bush administration in 2002 considered sending U.S. troops into a Buffalo, N.Y., suburb to arrest a group of terror suspects in what would have been a nearly unprecedented use of military power, The New York Times reported.

Vice President Dick Cheney and several other Bush advisers at the time strongly urged that the military be used to apprehend men who were suspected of plotting with al Qaida, who later became known as the Lackawanna Six, the Times reported on its Web site Friday night. It cited former administration officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The proposal advanced to at least one-high level administration meeting, before President George W. Bush decided against it.

Dispatching troops into the streets is virtually unheard of. The Constitution and various laws restrict the military from being used to conduct domestic raids and seize property.

According to the Times, Cheney and other Bush aides said an Oct. 23, 2001, Justice Department memo gave broad presidential authority that allowed Bush to use the domestic use of the military against al-Qaida if it was justified on the grounds of national security, rather than law enforcement.

Among those arguing for the military use besides Cheney were his legal adviser David S. Addington and some senior Defense Department officials, the Times reported.

Opposing the idea were Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser; John B. Bellinger III, the top lawyer at the National Security Council; FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III; and Michael Chertoff, then the head of the Justice Department's criminal division.

Bush ultimately nixed the proposal and ordered the FBI to make the arrests in Lackawanna. The men were subsequently arrested and pleaded guilty to terrorism-related charges.

Scott L. Silliman, a Duke University law professor specializing in national security law, told the Times that a U.S. president had not deployed the active-duty military on domestic soil in a law enforcement capacity, without specific statutory authority, since the Civil War.

Sending in soldiers to effect an arrest would have violated this law:

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.

The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act during peacetime.

The only time to bring in soldiers is when normal law enforcement is unequal to the danger or the task.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Reidy]

This is as close to meaningless as you can get without publishing a few blank column inches. He thought about it and talked about it and nothing came of it. I can't form an opinion because there's nothing to form an opinion of (unless it be of the journalistic irresponsibility of the story you quote).

[jeffrey smith]

This is as close to meaningless as you can get without publishing a few blank column inches. He thought about it and talked about it and nothing came of it. I can't form an opinion because there's nothing to form an opinion of (unless it be of the journalistic irresponsibility of the story you quote).

It's somewhat illuminating: it reinforces the fact that Bush is actually a person of some intelligence, and an independent will that was not controlled by Darth Cheney, so he didn't fall for the claim that he could ignore the Constitution and the enacted laws of the United States whenever he pleased. It further illuminates the attitude of those people who adhered to the "unitary executive" theory, which claimed that POTUS could ignore the Constitution and the enacted laws of the United States, and who were responsible, inter alia, for the "torture memos".

[Selene]

This is as close to meaningless as you can get without publishing a few blank column inches. He thought about it and talked about it and nothing came of it. I can't form an opinion because there's nothing to form an opinion of (unless it be of the journalistic irresponsibility of the story you quote).

Precisely.

However, a cursory list that makes Chris a tad incorrect as to history.

Draft riots in NY City Civil War

MacArthur and the routing of the Army Pensioners in 1928 ?

The use of American troops and planes to subdue the Black Wall Street in the Mid west.

The use of Federal Troops at Kent State.

The use of Federal Troops in Kansas by Ike

The use of Federal Troops by Kennedy.

I personally saw, with my own eyes and I have a photo of mobilized federal troops at specific locations during the anti-war march on Washington.

And that is just off the top of my head.

Watch out for those Coast Guard dudes commin off the Great Lake into Buffalo - HOORAH!

Adam

[Contumacious]

Report: Bush mulled sending troops into Buffalo

WASHINGTON – The Bush administration in 2002 considered sending U.S. troops into a Buffalo, N.Y., suburb to arrest a group of terror suspects in what would have been a nearly unprecedented use of military power, The New York Times reported.

Vice President Dick Cheney and several other Bush advisers at the time strongly urged that the military be used to apprehend men who were suspected of plotting with al Qaida, who later became known as the Lackawanna Six, the Times reported on its Web site Friday night. It cited former administration officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The proposal advanced to at least one-high level administration meeting, before President George W. Bush decided against it.

Dispatching troops into the streets is virtually unheard of. The Constitution and various laws restrict the military from being used to conduct domestic raids and seize property.

According to the Times, Cheney and other Bush aides said an Oct. 23, 2001, Justice Department memo gave broad presidential authority that allowed Bush to use the domestic use of the military against al-Qaida if it was justified on the grounds of national security, rather than law enforcement.

Among those arguing for the military use besides Cheney were his legal adviser David S. Addington and some senior Defense Department officials, the Times reported.

Opposing the idea were Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser; John B. Bellinger III, the top lawyer at the National Security Council; FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III; and Michael Chertoff, then the head of the Justice Department's criminal division.

Bush ultimately nixed the proposal and ordered the FBI to make the arrests in Lackawanna. The men were subsequently arrested and pleaded guilty to terrorism-related charges.

Scott L. Silliman, a Duke University law professor specializing in national security law, told the Times that a U.S. president had not deployed the active-duty military on domestic soil in a law enforcement capacity, without specific statutory authority, since the Civil War.

Sending in soldiers to effect an arrest would have violated this law:

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.

The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act during peacetime.

The only time to bring in soldiers is when normal law enforcement is unequal to the danger or the task.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The Posse Comitatus Act is no more.

Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free.

~ Federalist Paper No. 8, in which Alexander Hamilton displayed an atypical ardor to defend liberty against state power.

"this is Nero at his worst. The Constitution is gone." Those were the trenchant words spoken extemporaneously when Justice James Clark McReynolds read his dissent from the bench

U.S. Supreme Court

U.S. v. BANKERS' TRUST CO., 294 U.S. 240 (1935)

The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the use of any part of the Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marines, including their reserve components, as a posse comitatus ("armed force") or otherwise to execute the laws, except as authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress. Congress has created a number of statutory exceptions to the Posse Comitatus Act, which fall into four major categories: (1) insurrections and civil disturbances, [4] (2) counterdrug operations, [5] (3) disaster relief, [6] (4) counter-terrorism and weapons of mass destruction."

[Chris Grieb]

This is as close to meaningless as you can get without publishing a few blank column inches. He thought about it and talked about it and nothing came of it. I can't form an opinion because there's nothing to form an opinion of (unless it be of the journalistic irresponsibility of the story you quote).

Precisely.

However, a cursory list that makes Chris a tad incorrect as to history.

Draft riots in NY City Civil War

MacArthur and the routing of the Army Pensioners in 1928 ?

The use of American troops and planes to subdue the Black Wall Street in the Mid west.

The use of Federal Troops at Kent State.

The use of Federal Troops in Kansas by Ike

The use of Federal Troops by Kennedy.

I personally saw, with my own eyes and I have a photo of mobilized federal troops at specific locations during the anti-war march on Washington.

And that is just off the top of my head.

Watch out for those Coast Guard dudes commin off the Great Lake into Buffalo - HOORAH!

Adam

Adam; Some corrections: MacArthur's use on troops in DC was in 1932. Eisenhower used Federal troops in Arkansas in 1957. Kennedy used Federal troops at the University of Mississippi in 1962. Finally wasn't there some use of Federal troops in Waco.

[Contumacious]

This is as close to meaningless as you can get without publishing a few blank column inches. He thought about it and talked about it and nothing came of it. I can't form an opinion because there's nothing to form an opinion of (unless it be of the journalistic irresponsibility of the story you quote).

Precisely.

However, a cursory list that makes Chris a tad incorrect as to history.

Draft riots in NY City Civil War

MacArthur and the routing of the Army Pensioners in 1928 ?

The use of American troops and planes to subdue the Black Wall Street in the Mid west.

The use of Federal Troops at Kent State.

The use of Federal Troops in Kansas by Ike

The use of Federal Troops by Kennedy.

I personally saw, with my own eyes and I have a photo of mobilized federal troops at specific locations during the anti-war march on Washington.

And that is just off the top of my head.

Watch out for those Coast Guard dudes commin off the Great Lake into Buffalo - HOORAH!

Adam

Adam; Some corrections: MacArthur's use on troops in DC was in 1932. Eisenhower used Federal troops in Arkansas in 1957. Kennedy used Federal troops at the University of Mississippi in 1962. Finally wasn't there some use of Federal troops in Waco.

Yes the Delta Force was there - the FBI should also be considered a paramilitary force.

[Selene]

This is as close to meaningless as you can get without publishing a few blank column inches. He thought about it and talked about it and nothing came of it. I can't form an opinion because there's nothing to form an opinion of (unless it be of the journalistic irresponsibility of the story you quote).

Precisely.

However, a cursory list that makes Chris a tad incorrect as to history.

Draft riots in NY City Civil War

MacArthur and the routing of the Army Pensioners in 1928 ?

The use of American troops and planes to subdue the Black Wall Street in the Mid west.

The use of Federal Troops at Kent State.

The use of Federal Troops in Kansas by Ike

The use of Federal Troops by Kennedy.

I personally saw, with my own eyes and I have a photo of mobilized federal troops at specific locations during the anti-war march on Washington.

And that is just off the top of my head.

Watch out for those Coast Guard dudes commin off the Great Lake into Buffalo - HOORAH!

Adam

Adam; Some corrections: MacArthur's use on troops in DC was in 1932. Eisenhower used Federal troops in Arkansas in 1957. Kennedy used Federal troops at the University of Mississippi in 1962. Finally wasn't there some use of Federal troops in Waco.

Yes. Thank you, I knew there were some quick guesses in there.

As to Waco, I spoke to the owner of the larger florist in town and she stated clearly that Koresh would come into town every week with a slew of kids to buy ice cream and could have easily been apprehended.

However, Reno and Clinton chose a military path with Abrams Tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles, which last time I checked were not standard issue to the Mayberry Police Department, or to the Waco Police Department:

One of the reasons for the disastrous February 28, 1993, BATF raid on the Branch Davidians and April 19, 1993,

FBI tank attack

on the same group was that they were both run as military exercises,

planned and executed with the advice of the U.S. Department of Defense.

As Rep. John Conyers later pointed out, "The root cause of this problem was that it was considered a military operation, and it wasn't."[13] Attorney General Janet Reno, on the other hand, discussed the incident, and the President's involvement, as similar to her acting as a general during World War II, with the President not expected to exercise constant oversight.[14] (p.623)She acknowledged that the April 19 implementation of the "Plan B" tank and chemical warfare assault on the Branch Davidians meant that "in effect [the U.S. Army] Delta Force's recommendation was carried out."[15]

As evinced at Waco, there are several loopholes in the Posse Comitatus Act. For one, the prohibition on the use of military personnel and equipment does not mean personnel cannot be used to assist law enforcement, only that they can not be used directly.[16] Thus, throughout the Waco standoff, military personnel had express legal authority[17] to train FBI and other law enforcement officials to use military vehicles.[18] In addition, the proscription on use of the military is limited to personnel; military equipment can be used,[19] although the usual procedure is to remove or cover military markings. The civilian agency must pay the military for use of the equipment.[20].

Here is another that I forgot about:

One of the most egregious abuses of executive power in American history--<a href="http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/caseweb/catalog/topics/GovernmentandBusiness/SteelSeizure.html">President Truman's illegal seizure of the steel mills--was carried out by the military,

which obeyed a plainly unconstitutional order.[11]

http://davekopel.org...aceOfficers.htm

The above link is the source for the Waco and steel mill info.

Adam

Edited July 26, 2009 by Selene