Rand's gender hierarchy

[Dragonfly]

You couldn't possibly be talking about that item in Objectivist thought Rand-bashers love to mock, context, now could you?

You couldn't possibly mean that values exist within a context?...

Of course values exist within a context, that is why they are subjective. Calling such values objective is as silly as the notion of "contextual certainty".

Is the objective of the game to checkmate the King or not? If it is, this is an objective value.

No. Being "an objective" is not the same as being "an objective value", these are quite different animals even if both contain the word "objective".

It is the same objective for all players, too. That is, if they want to play chess.

It may be the same objective for most players, but not necessarily for all players, and therefore it is subjective.

[Brant Gaede]

If "objective" and "subjective" are not used we could talk about something important or shut up.

--Brant

Edited August 10, 2009 by Brant Gaede

[Xray]

"Being objective means..."

Objective is ________________

Objective (as adjective) is:

1 - based on facts, or making a decision based on facts, rather than on your feelings or beliefs.

2 - existing independent of any perceiver's consciousness.

Objectivity therefore is the recognition of the fact that reality exists independent of any perceiver's consciousness.

Reality exists as an objective absolute — facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

[Selene]

"Being objective means..."

Objective is ________________

Objective (as adjective) is:

1 - based on facts, or making a decision based on facts, rather than on your feelings or beliefs.

2 - existing independent of any perceiver's consciousness.

Objectivity therefore is the recognition of the fact that reality exists independent of any perceiver's consciousness.

Reality exists as an objective absolute — facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

Give me the objective standard of value that we can employ to determine a fact.

[Xray]

You couldn't possibly mean that values exist within a context?...

Of course values exist within a context, that is why they are subjective.

Simple as that.

DF:

Michael:

Is the objective of the game to checkmate the King or not? If it is, this is an objective value.

No. Being "an objective" is not the same as being "an objective value", these are quite different animals even if both contain the word "objective".

They are are different animals indeed. "Objective" as a noun actually means "goal", and goals are subjectively chosen.

DF:

It is the same objective for all players, too. That is, if they want to play chess.

It may be the same objective for most players, but not necessarily for all players, and therefore it is subjective.

Correct. For example, one can sit down to play a chess game with the intention (for whatever personal reasons) of letting the other party win. Doesn't happen very often I assume, but still can happen.

In that case, the value sought is not to win the game, but another personal value which the player holds higher in that situation.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Give me the objective standard of value that we can employ to determine a fact.

Where do you get the idea that one needs a "standard of value" when dealing with facts?

[jeffrey smith]

31 pages and no one (including you whom I specifically asked) has been able to come up with an example of an action not motivated by self-interest.

Need more be said? There exists no such action of course.

I use self-interest as the neutral, denotative term, since it does not carry the negative connotation of "selfishness".

Each human individual is hardwired with specific characteristics: as volitional, and a goal-seeker who attributes value to this or that. This is a fact no one would dispute.

The self-interest principle operating 100 % of the time is necessary for survival. There is no part time self-interest.

Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person who trades a value X to want a lower value in exchange for what he/she gives. The goal is ALWAYS a higher value one wants to get in return.

Agree?

Disagree, anyone? If yes, please say why. TIA.

X-Ray, someone in fact did come up with an example of a real life person who did not act out of self interest. That was you; the example was J. Korczak. The fact that you misapply your definitions to try to make everything fit into your dogma does not change that. Acting to fulfill a value principle is not acting in self interest. It is acting to fulfill a value principle. Apparently the idea that some people do things because they think it's the correct thing to do [whether they are correct in thinking that way is of course a different subject and the answer will vary from situation to situation], regardless of the consequences to themselves and their loved ones, is something that your brain can not handle. But it does happen. It's happened numberless times in human history.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for your definition of sacrifice.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dragonfly,

Talk around it all you want, there are objective rules to chess. (I have no idea what a valid subjective rule could be.) Within those rules, there are objective values and objectively insignificant components and even objective foul play.

I don't see how that can be denied and claim any measure of validity.

I have no idea what is gained by trying to hijack the word "objective" for such subjective usage like pretending and preaching that no objective values exist.

At least, I am heartened that you are not of the same mind as Xray, who believes that "objective" means one thing and one thing only (that is, until she wants it to mean something else, like a partial copy-paste from a dictionary, but in Xray-speak that doesn't count...).

I am also heartened by the increasing influence in the world of Ayn Rand's idea of objective values.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

[Selene]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Excellent Brant, just excellent.

Maybe since we can't get a definition that everyone can sign onto for either sacrifice and objective.

Maybe we should try defining value.

Damn that was funny, Brant.

Yankees just moved ahead of Boston with back to back 8th inning homers by Damon and Teischera (?) 3-2 therefore all is back in balance in the universe.

Adam

[merjet]

Dragonfly, did you not get the significance of these? (re post #623)

[Xray]

Dragonfly, did you not get the significance of these? (re post #623)

It looks like you didn't understand DF's clear explananation in post # 623.

Where do you have difficulty?

[merjet]

It looks like you didn't understand DF's clear explananation in post # 623.

Where do you have difficulty?

If you believe I have difficulty, why don't you give me your "explananation"?

[Xray]

Dragonfly,

Talk around it all you want, there are objective rules to chess. (I have no idea what a valid subjective rule could be.) Within those rules, there are objective values and objectively insignificant components and even objective foul play.

And what do objective rules have to do with objective values? Nothing.

It is also an "objective rule" in most countries to drive on the right side. Doesn't make it an "objective value" - it is merely an arbitrary regulation. As are the rules in chess, football, etc.

Within those rules, there are objective values and objectively insignificant components and even objective foul play.

There is no such thing as an objective value, since "value" is always attributed by an individual to this or that in order to achieve a subjectively chosen goal.

A means to achieve an end can be analyzed as suitable or unsuitable. When I want to cook spaghetti and don't put the stove on, this is an unsuitable means to achieve the desired goal.

When water is put on fire, the situation depends on whether it is perceived by an individual as of value to him/her or not.

When John Doe's living room carpet starts catching fire because of a burning candle dropped on the floor, he will value a bucket of water (if his goal is to put the fire out, and not to deliberately set his house on fire).

If I want to cook over open fire and someone pours a bucket of water on it, I won't value the water.

I have no idea what is gained by trying to hijack the word "objective" for such subjective usage like pretending and preaching that no objective values exist.

They don't exist. And isn't you who are hijacking the term objective?

Acording to your reasoning, for example, going to Jehova's witnesses meetings regularly must be an "objective value" too.

For the rules of their religion demand this, and when they abide by the rules, they get the desired recognition and acceptance. That is, attending the meetings clearly serves them to achieve their goal.

Michael, I'm afraid Rand would turn in her grave if you called this an "objective value".

Edited August 10, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

It looks like you didn't understand DF's clear explananation in post # 623.

Where do you have difficulty?

If you believe I have difficulty, why don't you give me your "explananation"?

DF has explained it perfectly already. Feel free to quote from his post the passages you are having difficulty with.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Attention Brant, for according to Rand's logic, "sacrifice" means giving a higher value for a lesser value.

[Selene]

It looks like you didn't understand DF's clear explananation in post # 623.

Where do you have difficulty?

If you believe I have difficulty, why don't you give me your "explananation"?

DF has explained it perfectly already. Feel free to quote from his post the passages you are having difficulty with.

WOW this is a real page turner!

33 pages

[Brant Gaede]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Attention Brant, for according to Rand's logic, "sacrifice" means giving a higher value for a lesser value.

That won't save you.

--Brant

[Selene]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Attention Brant, for according to Rand's logic, "sacrifice" means giving a higher value for a lesser value.

That won't save you.

--Brant

Brant:

Is this going to be pay for view because I have my plastic ready!

Maybe some heavy Wagnerian sounds building in the introduction.

Adam

Edited August 10, 2009 by Selene

[Brant Gaede]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Attention Brant, for according to Rand's logic, "sacrifice" means giving a higher value for a lesser value.

That won't save you.

--Brant

Brant:

Is this going to be pay for view because I have my plastic ready!

Maybe some heavy Wagnerian sounds building in the introduction.

Adam

I like the idea of this paying for itself.

Do you know where we can charter a helicopter?

--Brant

[Selene]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Attention Brant, for according to Rand's logic, "sacrifice" means giving a higher value for a lesser value.

That won't save you.

--Brant

Brant:

Is this going to be pay for view because I have my plastic ready!

Maybe some heavy Wagnerian sounds building in the introduction.

Adam

I like the idea of this paying for itself.

Do you know where we can charter a helicopter?

--Brant

Brant:

Actually, I do know two folks who have had to arrange for transportation like that . I would want the digital-camera angles to be really precise for those OMG moments

when objective reality really makes it's impression.

Maybe Jonathan can be hired for his consultation.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There is no such thing as an objective value, since "value" is always attributed by an individual to this or that in order to achieve a subjectively chosen goal.

This is pure Xray-speak.

Out here in the real world, the English language is used differently. In philosophy, even opposite systems of thought, words also have meaning. But Xray-speak is not present.

Michael, I'm afraid Rand would turn in her grave if you called this an "objective value".

This is pure Xray-ghost-channeling.

Shallow presumptuousness and nothing more.

It's a shame our posts here on OL are not tagged. I would tag Xray's posts under "vanity."

Michael

[Xray]

Michael, I'm afraid Rand would turn in her grave if you called this an "objective value".

This is pure Xray-ghost-channeling.

Shallow presumptuousness and nothing more.

It's a shame our posts here on OL are not tagged. I would tag Xray's posts under "vanity."

Michael

And under what would you "tag" Brant's and Selene's recent posts here?

There is no such thing as an objective value, since "value" is always attributed by an individual to this or that in order to achieve a subjectively chosen goal.

Michael:

This is pure Xray-speak.

Out here in the real world, the English language is used differently. In philosophy, even opposite systems of thought, words also have meaning. But Xray-speak is not present.

Illusory assumptions will get expressed in language too, sure, with distorted use of language reflecting the illusion.

Typical examples are the word combination like "divine reality" or "divine truth" often used by believers.

That there exist objective values is an illusion too. There exist no "objective values" out there, only to be discovered like a new planet.

Just think of the countless alleged "objective values" ideological leaders have advocated in history, often with force.

But valuing this or that is ALWAYS a subjective choice. It's that simple.

Whether it is choosing a loaf of bread or choosing to die for one's belief - the operative principle at work is the same.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Sacrifice (from the Gaede dictionary): throwing Xray into the volcano to appease Ayn Rand.

--Brant

virginity not needed

Just curious: how can sacrificing to appease a "goddess" be reconciled with the notion of individualism and independent thinking?

[Selene]

Don't ya just hate when they use that truth stuff!

"Typical examples are the word combination like "divine reality" or "divine truth" often used by believers."

Ya know, I heared about this lady kept talkin bout a "door of truth" or sum such stuff.

We dropped her in that volcano over yonder ...

want to buy the dvd?