On Abortion...

[Michelle]

This makes me no less disturbed by abortion, but I think allowing abortion to that point and disallowing it afterward is a reasonable solution.

Field mice quicken in the womb. Does that make them persons?

You're deliberately distorting the context of the argument to the point where it becomes meaningless.

No. I am being an Aspie* I take everything I hear and read quite literally. I am genetically wired to be literal minded and I cannot help it anymore than you can help breathing. Context is what is in front of my nose.

Ba'al Chatzaf

*one who as Asperger's Syndrome.

Alright. Apologies. In view of this, I'll explain myself more precisely.

A human being and a mouse are fundamentally different creatures on a biological level. Asking 'are they persons?' then about the mice, is not a question that delves deeper into the issue, but a question that distorts the biological context of human childbirth in the first place. The question is at what time do children become persons who have rights. I would say this is when they become conscious creatures, but many think this is only when they're aware enough to conceive of rights. Of course, this would leave children as creatures without rights for many years.

[Michelle]

This makes me no less disturbed by abortion, but I think allowing abortion to that point and disallowing it afterward is a reasonable solution.

Field mice quicken in the womb. Does that make them persons?

You're deliberately distorting the context of the argument to the point where it becomes meaningless.

No. I am being an Aspie* I take everything I hear and read quite literally. I am genetically wired to be literal minded and I cannot help it anymore than you can help breathing. Context is what is in front of my nose.

Did you bother reading what I wrote ( based on medical fact, by the way) about the undeveloped state of newborn humans? We come from the oven (so to speak) half-baked. It seems those who have reservations about abortion and infanticide tend to ignore the underlying fact of human under-development at birth. There is a good evolutionary reason for it, by the way. If humans stayed in the womb until their brains were nearly fully formed a woman would need a pelvic opening the twice the average diameter to give birth. Popping out infants half-baked is a survival characteristic selected for by Natural Selection. Being helpless for nearly two years is the price of our intelligence.

Ba'al Chatzaf

*one who as Asperger's Syndrome.

I don't think the fact that newborns are not fully aware creatures gives one license to murder them.

[Michelle]

And, geez, am I the only person who doesn't think the Spartans and Romans were good models for social organization and emulation?

Edited May 31, 2009 by Michelle R

[tjohnson]

This question will never be solved on philosophical grounds. Here are the issues. The mother has certain rights and the unborn child or fetus has rights at some point during the gestation (nowadays anyway, I guess not in Sparta). The only question is at what point in the pregnancy does the fetus get it's rights? There is no Right answer, there is only a When answer.

[Michelle]

This question will never be solved on philosophical grounds. Here are the issues. The mother has certain rights and the unborn child or fetus has rights at some point during the gestation (nowadays anyway, I guess not in Sparta). The only question is at what point in the pregnancy does the fetus get it's rights? There is no Right answer, there is only a When answer.

Honestly, when the major difference between a born child with rights and an unborn child without rights is spacial in nature, I don't think a good argument can be made for abortion.

[tjohnson]

Honestly, when the major difference between a born child with rights and an unborn child without rights is spacial in nature, I don't think a good argument can be made for abortion.

What do you mean 'spatial'?

[Selene]

Bob:

So your argument is that when a person has been in a coma and is no longer aware, I can just walk by and put a 9mm slug into their temple, or do I have to be the person's natural mother to do that?

Or, would you have the state dictate the precise manner of murder which would be ok?

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

And, geez, am I the only person who doesn't think the Spartans and Romans were good models for social organization and emulation?

No! When I read about the Battle of The Hot Gates, my inner Warrior is stirred. When I read about Roman waterworks, flush toilets, straight roads on which the chariots and wagons Ran On Time, it touches my Inner Fascist.

I mean this quite sincerely. When the United States missed its One Great Opportunity to establish the Pax Americana after WW2, the world was let in for an age of pain and destruction. We blew it Big Time. Our society is doomed (as is every other great society) to fail, whither and die. But we could have put the world into proper shape with the Pax Americana. Rome was the first great (nearly) global economy and society. The Romans showed what could be done by binding the nations with roads and trade. We did not get back to this level until the mid 19th century with steam locomotives and fast traveling ships.

As for Sparta, as screwed up as the Spartans were, they showed what military might could accomplish. Every great society since the Spartans has adopted Spartan military tropes as their organizing princple for making war and keeping the peace.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michelle]

Honestly, when the major difference between a born child with rights and an unborn child without rights is spacial in nature, I don't think a good argument can be made for abortion.

What do you mean 'spatial'?

At a certain point, a child is developed enough to exist outside of the womb, but for a period of time before it is actually born. At this point, the major difference between a born and an unborn child is spatial in nature. One exists outside of the womb. The other inside.

[Michelle]

And, geez, am I the only person who doesn't think the Spartans and Romans were good models for social organization and emulation?

No! When I read about the Battle of The Hot Gates, my inner Warrior is stirred. When I read about Roman waterworks, flush toilets, straight roads on which the chariots and wagons Ran On Time, it touches my Inner Fascist.

I mean this quite sincerely. When the United States missed its One Great Opportunity to establish the Pax Americana after WW2, the world was let in for an age of pain and destruction. We blew it Big Time. Our society is doomed (as is every other great society) to fail, whither and die. But we could have put the world into proper shape with the Pax Americana. Rome was the first great (nearly) global economy and society. The Romans showed what could be done by binding the nations with roads and trade. We did not get back to this level until the mid 19th century with steam locomotives and fast traveling ships.

As for Sparta, as screwed up as the Spartans were, they showed what military might could accomplish. Every great society since the Spartans has adopted Spartan military tropes as their organizing princple for making war and keeping the peace.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ancient Rome and Sparta are older equivalents of some of the totalitarian movements which arose in the twentieth century. Their societies were nationalistic (and thus collectivistic). Not conducive to any kind of liberty at all.

Americans, as a whole, desire liberty and the right to pursue their own individual dreams. I don't see how throwing babies off of cliffs especially aids us as a people.

And, personally, I've never understood this admiration for Sparta. So they were good at killing people. Woopee. By this standard, the Soviet Union was positively heroic. Maybe this requires some kind of testosterone-induced madness I'm (obviously) not susceptible to.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Michelle R

[BaalChatzaf]

And, personally, I've never understood this admiration for Sparta. So they were good at killing people. Woopee. By this standard, the Soviet Union was positively heroic. Maybe this requires some kind of testosterone-induced madness I'm (obviously) not susceptible to.

You are quite right. It is a Guy Thing. Even so, you enjoy you liberty and your feminine virtue large because some muscular, brave guys killed our enemies on the battlefield.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[tjohnson]

You are quite right. It is a Guy Thing. Even so, you enjoy you liberty and your feminine virtue large because some muscular, brave guys killed our enemies on the battlefield.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Nowadays it's more like some computer geek sits at his workstation and manipulates a remote control weapon on the battlefield.

[Selene]

GS:

Sometimes your sheer naivete and ignorance about military operations is stunning.

Just ask any person who just came back from these current "strolls through pretty poppy fields" or is there another phrase O'Biwan is using

to describe the hand to hand combat that is going on while you sit well protected by those "computer geeks".

Adam

[tjohnson]

...is going on while you sit well protected by those "computer geeks".

You are assuming there is a well-defined threat to my person that I need protection from. I reject that assumption. If my government wishes to send our military over to Afghanistan and risk their lives for some perceived threat that's unfortunate, but I can't stop foolish governments any more than you can.

[Selene]

GS:

That was not my point and you know it,

Adam

[tjohnson]

GS:

That was not my point and you know it,

Adam

Nope, I'm really not sure what your point was.

[galtgulch]

Galt

I think we've advanced just a bit since the time of the Spartans.

The time of quickening is not concerned with the organic humanity of the creature, but with its development of consciousness, when it thus becomes a person.

Before consciousness, a developing child is no more a person than a cadaver. The only difference is that of potentiality.

This makes me no less disturbed by abortion, but I think allowing abortion to that point and disallowing it afterward is a reasonable solution.

Michelle,

In my work I have assisted at what was then called a therapeutic abortion back in the mid sixties at which time I found the procedure to be horrific, I identified with the creature which came out in identifiable pieces, I am still troubled by it to this day and as I write this I can picture what I saw with horror and sadness. I remember talking with the doctor who performed the abortion in a private hospital in Buffalo NY where all the medical residents were Catholic and were unwilling to assist. As a third year student I was assigned the opportunity to observe as it is really a one man job to dilate the cervix with smooth curved metal instruments of incrementally larger size starting with the end of the smallest which would fit into the uterine cervical canal. I recall, that although I am not and was not either Catholic or religious that before the procedure began while the patient was anesthetized and such, that I made the sign of the cross over her bottom because I knew something was going to be killed.

Once the cervix is dilated enough to admit a curette the inside of the uterus is carefully scraped to remove the placenta as well as the embryo or fetus depending on the stage of gestation.

I remember only that the doctor told me that if it weren't done this way that pregnant women would get abortions in back alleys and would show up in the emergency rooms with an infected uterus from the coat hanger used and would more often than not they would die of sepsis. That abortions would be done was a given, a known fact, and as unpleasant and as revolting as the procedure was for doctors to do they saw it as a way to spare women from their own death which was a virtual certainty when done outside hospitals.

So wherever you choose to draw the line, you will be condemning those beyond your gracious allowance to death as they will pursue illegal abortions for you will revive that foul industry by your ban.

www.campaignforliberty.com 31 May 9 PM 155,219 members and growing daily and forever. No matter how long it takes to find citizens who find it appealing that a lone congressman has read every bill proposed by the congress. If he thought that the power being sought by the congress was not granted in Article 1 Section 8 and therefor was not among the enumerated powers he would stand and vote "No!" as he did alone over 300 times in his ten terms in the congress.

Today I asked a few people if they heard of the Campaign For Liberty and told them about it. I told them the above and everyone of them was impressed to learn such a congressman exists. I told them I joined his Campaign For Liberty when there were just 6000 members last summer and that now there are over 155,000 which was more impressive. I told them we intend to support candidates for office who are like minded in their regard for the Constitution, limited government, sound money, no tax on income, etc.

Some ask me to repeat the name. www.campaignforliberty.com which I do a few times so they hear it well. The torch is being passed and will become viral. I mention how it has grown from 40 college campus groups to over 142 colleges and high schools. There is no stopping this movement.

gulch

Edited June 1, 2009 by galtgulch

[kiaer.ts]

You are quite right. It is a Guy Thing. Even so, you enjoy you liberty and your feminine virtue large because some muscular, brave guys killed our enemies on the battlefield.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Nowadays it's more like some computer geek sits at his workstation and manipulates a remote control weapon on the battlefield.

Killing an anarchist or a pacifist should not be defined as "murder" in a legalistic sense. The offense against the state, if any, should be "Using deadly weapons inside city limits," or "Creating a traffic hazard," or "Endangering bystanders," or other misdemeanor. - Robert Heinlein

[Selene]

Galt

I think we've advanced just a bit since the time of the Spartans.

The time of quickening is not concerned with the organic humanity of the creature, but with its development of consciousness, when it thus becomes a person.

Before consciousness, a developing child is no more a person than a cadaver. The only difference is that of potentiality.

This makes me no less disturbed by abortion, but I think allowing abortion to that point and disallowing it afterward is a reasonable solution.

Michelle,

In my work I have assisted at what was then called a therapeutic abortion back in the mid sixties at which time I found the procedure to be horrific, I identified with the creature which came out in identifiable pieces, I am still troubled by it to this day and as I write this I can picture what I saw with horror and sadness. I remember talking with the doctor who performed the abortion in a private hospital in Buffalo NY where all the medical residents were Catholic and were unwilling to assist. As a third year student I was assigned the opportunity to observe as it is really a one man job to dilate the cervix with smooth curved metal instruments of incrementally larger size starting with the end of the smallest which would fit into the uterine cervical canal. I recall, that although I am not and was not either Catholic or religious that before the procedure began while the patient was anesthetized and such, that I made the sign of the cross over her bottom because I knew something was going to be killed.

I remember only that the doctor told me that if it weren't done this way that pregnant women would get abortions in back alleys and would show up in the emergency rooms with an infected uterus from the coat hanger used and would more often than not they would die of sepsis. That abortions would be done was a given, a known fact, and as unpleasant and as revolting as the procedure was for doctors to do they saw it as a way to spare women from their own death which was a virtual certainty when done outside hospitals.

So wherever you choose to draw the line, you will be condemning those beyond your gracious allowance to death as they will pursue illegal abortions for you will revive that foul industry by your ban.

gulch

Gulch:

This argument is specious. I will offer you an opportunity to edit all of it especially that last paragraph which is frankly unworthy of a freshman debate student or a car salesman.

[galtgulch]

Galt

I think we've advanced just a bit since the time of the Spartans.

The time of quickening is not concerned with the organic humanity of the creature, but with its development of consciousness, when it thus becomes a person.

Before consciousness, a developing child is no more a person than a cadaver. The only difference is that of potentiality.

This makes me no less disturbed by abortion, but I think allowing abortion to that point and disallowing it afterward is a reasonable solution.

Michelle,

In my work I have assisted at what was then called a therapeutic abortion back in the mid sixties at which time I found the procedure to be horrific, I identified with the creature which came out in identifiable pieces, I am still troubled by it to this day and as I write this I can picture what I saw with horror and sadness. I remember talking with the doctor who performed the abortion in a private hospital in Buffalo NY where all the medical residents were Catholic and were unwilling to assist. As a third year student I was assigned the opportunity to observe as it is really a one man job to dilate the cervix with smooth curved metal instruments of incrementally larger size starting with the end of the smallest which would fit into the uterine cervical canal. I recall, that although I am not and was not either Catholic or religious that before the procedure began while the patient was anesthetized and such, that I made the sign of the cross over her bottom because I knew something was going to be killed.

I remember only that the doctor told me that if it weren't done this way that pregnant women would get abortions in back alleys and would show up in the emergency rooms with an infected uterus from the coat hanger used and would more often than not they would die of sepsis. That abortions would be done was a given, a known fact, and as unpleasant and as revolting as the procedure was for doctors to do they saw it as a way to spare women from their own death which was a virtual certainty when done outside hospitals.

So wherever you choose to draw the line, you will be condemning those beyond your gracious allowance to death as they will pursue illegal abortions for you will revive that foul industry by your ban.

gulch

Gulch:

This argument is specious. I will offer you an opportunity to edit all of it especially that last paragraph which is frankly unworthy of a freshman debate student or a car salesman.

Adam,

I stand by it.

I heard that one of the few doctors who perform late term abortions was killed as he served as an usher in the church he attended for years. The killer was often seen there among those who protested his work.

These killers justify murdering doctors who perform abortions because they see it as murdering a murderer and saving the lives of those whom that doctor will not be alive to abort. Needless to say those abortions are harder to get done but probably are done anyway.

I think it is no ones business but the pregnant woman and her doctors whether you like it or not or think it is justified up to a certain point and not beyond that point or not.

I keep pointing out the fact that the issue is not one of viability outside the womb but just when the potential human being becomes an actual human being. If Objectivists hold that the definition of a human being is the possession of a volitional conceptual consciousness and even a newborn child does not fill that criterion certainly unborn potential human beings do not possess the rights of a human being.

Therefor abortions are justifiable at any stage. It is exceeding rare that a woman would need to have her pregnancy terminated in the last trimester for her own health reasons but that would be the likely reason to have it done then.

Do you deny that women would die of sepsis from abortions done outside hospitals? You obviously have an agenda but your ad hominem nonsense is just that for you give no reasons just condescending attacks.

Maybe I should suggest that you reread The Argument From Intimidation in The Virtue Of Selfishness so you will stop humiliating yourself by such an approach.

www.campaignforliberty.com 31 May 9 PM 155,222; 1 Jun 1PM 155,294

gulch

Edited June 1, 2009 by galtgulch

[Selene]

Thanks.

I have read it.

We are both clear as to where we stand.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

I don't think the fact that newborns are not fully aware creatures gives one license to murder them.

That is because you think they are people (persons). You are in error. They are the property of the women who bore them. Eventually they will change enough to become persons (if they are permitted and able to do so).

In Western countries people believe in souls. They think fetuses have souls and it is that which makes them rights bearers. The concept of soul as a separate substance is pure nonsense. There ae no souls. People are made of atoms just like rocks and trees. It is the functional capability of the biological entity that determines if it is a person (a being that is self aware and able to have intentions). For a human to be a person it must have sufficient brain mass and neural interconnects. Infants do not have this.

The rights that infants (in our society) have are conventional and granted by the society in which they are born and enforced by the legal mechanism of that society. I have no difficulty with the convention, qua convention, since it errors on the side of safety, but the notion of being born with intrinsic rights is nonsense. It has no neurological basis. If you want to talk about "natural rights" or "inherent rights" they have to be grounded on physical, biological, physiological and neurological facts. Having a possible future capability does not support a present judgment. Acorns are not oak treas and fetuses are not people (nor are newborns).

Ba'al Chataf