How can an ethical objectivist celebrate Passover or Easter this weekend?

[Selene]

Maybe,

by imagining that each painted egg is a secret individualistic code from mother reality that is the first letter of objectivism.

Maybe...

[BaalChatzaf]

Maybe,

by imagining that each painted egg is a secret individualistic code from mother reality that is the first letter of objectivism.

Maybe...

Is there a problem with rejoicing in the end of slavery?

When Moses was a Prince of Egypt he saw an Egyptian taskmaster beating up a Hebrew slave. Suppressing his genetically wired in Jewish urge to be fair minded and study the issue from all possible angles such as considering the socioeconomic factors that led the taskmaster to be a taskmaster in the first place, Moses slew the slave beating son of a bitch and buried his body in the sand. Unfortunately sand is not a very good way of burying a body and the killing became known so Moses had to flee. The rest is mytho-history.

Once the Israelites saw they had to flee, Moses said to them; load up your camels and get off your asses, we are on our way to The Promised Land.

In later days, Roosevelt said to the workers, light up your Camels and sit on your asses -- This is the Promised Land.

Happy Passover. Chag Somayach (happy holiday). Yom tov!

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited April 10, 2009 by BaalChatzaf

[Selene]

Ba'al:

Is that from Exodus? Not the Leon Uris model. Does it mean:

"So it is said, so it is written."?

And if it does mean that is that the same as the Arabic Muslim- "Ahh, it was written."

I really appreciate your knowledge of Judaism as I know enough, but you can never have enough of one of the great religions of history.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Ba'al:

Is that from Exodus? Not the Leon Uris model. Does it mean:

"So it is said, so it is written."?

And if it does mean that is that the same as the Arabic Muslim- "Ahh, it was written."

I really appreciate your knowledge of Judaism as I know enough, but you can never have enough of one of the great religions of history.

Adam

In Judaism, the metaphor of inscription has a place. During the ten days between Rosh Ha Shanah (the religious New Year) and Yom Ha'Kippurim ( the Day of Judging or Day of Atonement) it is believed that the Holy One Blessed be He inscribes each of us in a book for prosperity, or even death. At the close of the Day of Judging one is sealed in the Book for the coming year. The usual wish during that period is -- may you be inscribed in the Book of Life. The idea behind the thought is that G-D is the celestial book-keeper and bean counter (among other things).

Muslims are a great deal more fatalistic. The operative phrase in Arabic is Muktab (inscribed, written, ordained).

Going back to the late bronze age when writing came into fashion the idea that ideas and orders could be written down and had an effect on actual events made writing take on some magic properties. Hence such phrases as .... it is written... (meaning ordained and sealed by the powers that be). With the Egyptians writing was a very big deal because that his how Pharo transmitted his orders to his underlings. This gave the scribes a very important place in the Egyptian power structure. Also scribes were the calculators and mathematicians which made them have even more mojo. In those days of limited literacy the power of the pen controlled the power of the sword.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited April 10, 2009 by BaalChatzaf

[Selene]

Thank you.

I was speaking with my client and friend who is a Hungarian Jew and is a minimalist practicing individual who observes the basics and his Israeli friend who shall we say was is in the same line that you were in.

At any rate, we had a discussion about an Israeli "law" or "religious" agreement wherein, essentially, a person is "contracted" to hold the leftover Seder food for a week and then returns it in some way. Sorry about the lack of detail, which I can acquire from my friend, but are you familiar with anything in Judaic myth or law that fits that "story".

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Thank you.

I was speaking with my client and friend who is a Hungarian Jew and is a minimalist practicing individual who observes the basics and his Israeli friend who shall we say was is in the same line that you were in.

At any rate, we had a discussion about an Israeli "law" or "religious" agreement wherein, essentially, a person is "contracted" to hold the leftover Seder food for a week and then returns it in some way. Sorry about the lack of detail, which I can acquire from my friend, but are you familiar with anything in Judaic myth or law that fits that "story".

Adam

Ah! No, you are referring to selling the chometz (grain material and yeast that can cause a loaf to rise). The biblical injunction is that no chometz be found in your dwellings during passover. But suppose you have a lot of this stuff and you don't want to throw it out? Say a lot of cornflakes or packaged flour. What is done is that this stuff is "sold" to a gentile. That is the material is set aside for the contracting gentile who has the option of picking it up at the and paying the Jewish contractee for it or letting the option to purchase slide and the ownership returns to the original owner. So what to do with the stuff? You put it in a container or area and seal it off saying this container or area is assigned to the gentile and the contents can be picked up. At this point the container or area is no long a part of your dwelling. It is rented out or let out, so to speak.

Now I have never heard of a gentile exercising the option, but it is possible. What a surprise that would be!

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited April 10, 2009 by BaalChatzaf

[Selene]

Lol

That's exactly it. I knew that a "gentile" was mentioned in our back and forth discussion, but I was not sure of the context. Plus my friend was extremely critical of the entire practice and especially annoyed with Israeli's and there general attitude towards Americans and each other, lol.

So the Arabic it is written is kinda like a Calvinist on a camel.

Thanks again.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Lol

That's exactly it. I knew that a "gentile" was mentioned in our back and forth discussion, but I was not sure of the context. Plus my friend was extremely critical of the entire practice and especially annoyed with Israeli's and there general attitude towards Americans and each other, lol.

So the Arabic it is written is kinda like a Calvinist on a camel.

Thanks again.

Adam

The issue is how to keep the commandments without causing physical or monetary damages to one's self. The method is akin the the midieval notion of "saving the appearances". The legal requirements are satisfied, yet no harm flows from keeping the law. It took a lot of smarts to figure out how to keep the law but not let the keeping put a dent in one's life. The Rabbis were extremely clever in thinking up ways to "save the appearences". How to keep G-D happy and not lose any ground thereby.

You will notice that working with the Jewish law and its subtleties produced a talent that was of general utility in the world at large. That is why Talmudic training helped Jews to be first rate lawyers, accountants, mathematicians and so forth. There is something to be said for a religion that absolutely insists that one does not park his brains outside the "church". Rather one is enjoined to bring his wits and everything else inside. An observant Jew is not only heart and soul with his path but heart, mind and soul. Even a not so religious person, such as I am has profited greatly from his Jewish upbringing. When I was younger I read Torah and Talmud cover to cover in Hebrew and Aramaic. It did not do me a bit of harm. Rather it did me a great deal of good. At no time did I have to turn off my brain.

This formal-logical approach to the religious practice produces a high degree of abstraction handling skill. And one can even bring his feelings along for the trip, too.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited April 10, 2009 by BaalChatzaf

[Selene]

Precisely. As I have mentioned before, I served on the School Board with two Orthodox Rabbis who were also administrators in the School System and we thoroughly enjoyed real argumentation. We did not always wind up on the same side of the vote, but we bore no personal issues.

My upbringing was not Judaic, but I was surrounded by exceptionally intelligent inquisitive people who tended to be friends with the same type of folks. No airs, just firm investigation and logical thought.

I frankly believe there should be a federal class action suit under a particular piece of federal law. I am currently putting together one regarding a certain pattern of elements that 1) is biased in application as part of the "scheme", defined as "a design or plan formed to accomplish some purpose; a system", as in a legislative scheme; and 2) the causes financial, physical and psychological damage using tax dollars on a "specific" class.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Is there a problem with rejoicing in the end of slavery?

Bob,

It depends on how you rejoice.

In the USA, the icing on that cake was to elect President Obama...

Michael

[Alfonso Jones]

Is there a problem with rejoicing in the end of slavery?

Bob,

It depends on how you rejoice.

In the USA, the icing on that cake was to elect President Obama...

Michael

That's not icing on that cake.

Bill P

[Selene]

You can have your icing and your cake and eat it and still have it, yes?

Edited April 11, 2009 by Selene

[Alfonso Jones]

You can have your icing and your cake and eat it and still have it, yes?

Sure, and, to continue to mutate the metaphor . . . your grandchildren will pay the bill for the cake.

Sad, pitiful and irresponsible Obama!

Bill P

[Barbara Branden]

I once did volunteer work at the Simon Weisenthal Museum. During discussions she and I were having about Judaism and morality, the head librarian gave me a book written by Weisenthal that she thought would interest me. It did. The titlle of the book is The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness . The story Weisenthal tells is this:

While imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, he was summoned one day to the hospital bedside of a dying member of the SS. The man knew he was dying and was haunted by the memory of the monstrous crimes he had committed-- such as helping to set fire to a house that 300 Jews were not allowed to escape from, and watching without protest as they and their children burned to death. He was desperate to confess his sins and to be forgiven -- by a Jew. He begged Weisenthal to forgive him. Weisenthal listened as the man recounted his crimes and his request for absolution; then he sat in silence for a few moments, and then he rose and left the room without having said a word. .

The question the book asks is: What would you do? At the end of the story, fifty-three well-known men and women give their varied answers.

At her request, I told rhe librarian my answer. I said that I would never forgive the SS man, that I had no right to speak for the dead and in their name, that no one had the right to forgive him for the evils he had done to others. I said that if I chose, I could forgive someone for his sins against me; but by what right could I presume to forgive the evils perpetrated against others? I said that only those he had wronged could forgive him -- and thry were dead.

The librarian smiled -- she knew I was not a practicing Jew -- and she said that I probably didn't know it. but that my answer was perfectly consistent with Judaism. She was correct; I didn't know it. She said that Judaism taught that not even God himself had the power to forgive a man for the evils he had done, that only his victims had that power.

I was rather startled to learn of the limitation Jews imposed on the power of God --startled and pleased. Ba'al, do you know where in Jewish writings this concept can be found? I'd be interested to know how it is explained and justified.

Barbara

[BaalChatzaf]

Is there a problem with rejoicing in the end of slavery?

Bob,

It depends on how you rejoice.

In the USA, the icing on that cake was to elect President Obama...

Michael

It also depends on what one rejoices over. The Israelites and a mixed multitude took a hike from Egypt, from slavery and never returned. It took 40 years (or so the story tells), but the Israelites grew a generation of sons and daughters that never knew slavery.

That is worthwhile remembering.

I am sorry that so many of my countrymen have re-upped for bondage. A very bad mistake.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

I was rather startled to learn of the limitation Jews imposed on the power of God --startled and pleased. Ba'al, do you know where in Jewish writings this concept can be found? I'd be interested to know how it is explained and justified.

Barbara

The general rule is to square it with the one who was wronged. And saying sorry is not sufficient. One must compensate the one who is wronged if it is possible. Then after a person squares it with the one offended or damaged he may make his peace with G-D.

As you can see Judaism is founded on specifics and not on sentiment. The first order of business is to deal with the facts. Later on tender feelings may prevail. That is why the early gentile followers of Jesus accused the Jews of being "legalistic".

Barbara, have you noticed that if one strips away the supernatural aspects of Judaism, what one has left is something that bears a resemblance to Objectivism? Keep in mind Judaism started as a late bronze age, early iron age religion. It evolved into an effective ethical system over the years. The Jews were the first to succeed in turning superstition into ethics. The Greeks did to a certain extent, also. Read -The Timeaus- by Plato. You will observe a confluence of ethics and supernatural religion.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

I wonder if the ancestors of any of today's Jews were Jews in the time of Christ. The lost tribes of Israel and all of that.

--Brant

[SherryTX]

We don't really celebrate Passover or Easter per se, but have no issue taking part in the "pagan" elements, such as egg painting and pretending a bunny is coming. It is a fun ritual. This year we are starting a new one: going out for sushi or another restaurant with our Objectivist friends.

But on to a more serious note....

On an atheist mom email list I belong to, one of the members of the list stated this:

"Every year at this time I like to feast and reflect on how thousands of innocent children were killed to further the political aims of the ancient Hebrews. It really warms my heart.

Happy Passover, the original terrorist holiday."

That is sarcasm, of course. Of course, I think most people are aware how it all started (back in Egypt), but he is referring specifically to the fact that is when it all went down in the New Testament against Jesus. And of course, all the persecution from Hebrews against Christians in the first century.

Although the Hebrews were finally released from their bondage out of Egypt, they still had slaves, which I find extremely ironic. No, not on the same scale the way Egypt treated their slaves over all, but still participated in slavery.

I do understand that Christianity is much more emotional than Judaism, but I do not see how they are a better religion. They had their genocides in the Old Testament, as Christianity had their crusades, as well as the Muslims. I see harm in all of them (even the Buddhists, though they don't appear as violent as most religions.)

I guess I am confused?

(By the way Barbara - that was a great story, and I appreciate you sharing.)

[BaalChatzaf]

Happy Passover, the original terrorist holiday."

I guess I am confused?

(By the way Barbara - that was a great story, and I appreciate you sharing.)

You are confused. Except for the last of the ten plagues, nine were natural plagues or natural appearing plagues. Each and every time Pharoh had the choice of letting the Israelites go forth. Each time he reneged. On the last plague (the death of the first born) he finally broke. As to the last plague it was the Egyptians who decreed the death of every Israelite male infant. What can one say? Payback is a bitch.

The whole point of the story as that Pharoh brought misery upon his people because of his wilfulness and and arrogance. He refused to send forth the Israelites until disaster finally broke his will.

Of course it is only a story, but a story with a point. Pharoh's tyranny, cruelty and arrogance were his undoing. All he had to do, was to do the right thing. He refused. And what is the point of this mythical tale? That evil deeds ultimately have evil consequences upon those who do the evil deed.

The modern version of this story happened to the South in the U.S. in the middle of the 19th century. Their defense of slavery, caused them to rise up in rebellion against the law which in turn lead to a war that brought destruction and misery upon their own heads. Richmond was wrecked as thoroughly by artillery as a modern bombing attack could have wrecked it. The Shenandoah Valley was burned to the ground by Sheridan and did not start producing again for nearly ten years. All because the ruling class of the Confederacy was stubborn, blind, arrogant and stupid on the matter of slavery. It was not God who brought ruin, but men who would not permit lawlessness to go unpunished.

An interesting side light of the doings in the South was that Negro slaves taught Christianity by their white masters from the Bible immediately took up the story of Moses and the Israelites as their very own story. There is an old black spiritual that goes like this: Go down Moses, go down Moses go down to the Egypt land; go down Moses, go down Moses and tell Old Pharoh to Let My People Go! Our Cantor even sang that old black spiritual at our Passover Seder.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[thomtg]

I once did volunteer work at the Simon Weisenthal Museum. During discussions she and I were having about Judaism and morality, the head librarian gave me a book written by Weisenthal that she thought would interest me. It did. The titlle of the book is The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness . The story Weisenthal tells is this:

While imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, he was summoned one day to the hospital bedside of a dying member of the SS. The man knew he was dying and was haunted by the memory of the monstrous crimes he had committed-- such as helping to set fire to a house that 300 Jews were not allowed to escape from, and watching without protest as they and their children burned to death. He was desperate to confess his sins and to be forgiven -- by a Jew. He begged Weisenthal to forgive him. Weisenthal listened as the man recounted his crimes and his request for absolution; then he sat in silence for a few moments, and then he rose and left the room without having said a word. .

The question the book asks is: What would you do? At the end of the story, fifty-three well-known men and women give their varied answers.

At her request, I told rhe librarian my answer. I said that I would never forgive the SS man, that I had no right to speak for the dead and in their name, that no one had the right to forgive him for the evils he had done to others. I said that if I chose, I could forgive someone for his sins against me; but by what right could I presume to forgive the evils perpetrated against others? I said that only those he had wronged could forgive him -- and thry were dead.

The librarian smiled -- she knew I was not a practicing Jew -- and she said that I probably didn't know it. but that my answer was perfectly consistent with Judaism. She was correct; I didn't know it. She said that Judaism taught that not even God himself had the power to forgive a man for the evils he had done, that only his victims had that power.

[...]

This is an insightful story, Barbara. "Forgiveness" is a topic I've often wondered about, particularly as it relates to justice and mercy. Too bad your post is nested in the humor section of the forum and will not get the readership it deserves.

[SherryTX]

Happy Passover, the original terrorist holiday."

I guess I am confused?

(By the way Barbara - that was a great story, and I appreciate you sharing.)

You are confused. Except for the last of the ten plagues, nine were natural plagues or natural appearing plagues. Each and every time Pharoh had the choice of letting the Israelites go forth. Each time he reneged. On the last plague (the death of the first born) he finally broke. As to the last plague it was the Egyptians who decreed the death of every Israelite male infant. What can one say? Payback is a bitch.

The whole point of the story as that Pharoh brought misery upon his people because of his wilfulness and and arrogance. He refused to send forth the Israelites until disaster finally broke his will.

Of course it is only a story, but a story with a point. Pharoh's tyranny, cruelty and arrogance were his undoing. All he had to do, was to do the right thing. He refused. And what is the point of this mythical tale? That evil deeds ultimately have evil consequences upon those who do the evil deed.

The modern version of this story happened to the South in the U.S. in the middle of the 19th century. Their defense of slavery, caused them to rise up in rebellion against the law which in turn lead to a war that brought destruction and misery upon their own heads. Richmond was wrecked as thoroughly by artillery as a modern bombing attack could have wrecked it. The Shenandoah Valley was burned to the ground by Sheridan and did not start producing again for nearly ten years. All because the ruling class of the Confederacy was stubborn, blind, arrogant and stupid on the matter of slavery. It was not God who brought ruin, but men who would not permit lawlessness to go unpunished.

An interesting side light of the doings in the South was that Negro slaves taught Christianity by their white masters from the Bible immediately took up the story of Moses and the Israelites as their very own story. There is an old black spiritual that goes like this: Go down Moses, go down Moses go down to the Egypt land; go down Moses, go down Moses and tell Old Pharoh to Let My People Go! Our Cantor even sang that old black spiritual at our Passover Seder.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I don't disagree that payback is a bitch, nor that the plagues were natural and not from god. However, that isn't how the religion sees it (nor due Christians). I realize that the slaves saw a parallel with their plight as well.

What I meant is "I am confused?" is I wonder why I have seen a lot of posts (across various Objectivist related boards) that make it seem like Judaism is a religion "better" or less guilty of damage than others.

[SherryTX]

Happy Passover, the original terrorist holiday."

I guess I am confused?

(By the way Barbara - that was a great story, and I appreciate you sharing.)

You are confused. Except for the last of the ten plagues, nine were natural plagues or natural appearing plagues. Each and every time Pharoh had the choice of letting the Israelites go forth. Each time he reneged. On the last plague (the death of the first born) he finally broke. As to the last plague it was the Egyptians who decreed the death of every Israelite male infant. What can one say? Payback is a bitch.

The whole point of the story as that Pharoh brought misery upon his people because of his wilfulness and and arrogance. He refused to send forth the Israelites until disaster finally broke his will.

Of course it is only a story, but a story with a point. Pharoh's tyranny, cruelty and arrogance were his undoing. All he had to do, was to do the right thing. He refused. And what is the point of this mythical tale? That evil deeds ultimately have evil consequences upon those who do the evil deed.

The modern version of this story happened to the South in the U.S. in the middle of the 19th century. Their defense of slavery, caused them to rise up in rebellion against the law which in turn lead to a war that brought destruction and misery upon their own heads. Richmond was wrecked as thoroughly by artillery as a modern bombing attack could have wrecked it. The Shenandoah Valley was burned to the ground by Sheridan and did not start producing again for nearly ten years. All because the ruling class of the Confederacy was stubborn, blind, arrogant and stupid on the matter of slavery. It was not God who brought ruin, but men who would not permit lawlessness to go unpunished.

An interesting side light of the doings in the South was that Negro slaves taught Christianity by their white masters from the Bible immediately took up the story of Moses and the Israelites as their very own story. There is an old black spiritual that goes like this: Go down Moses, go down Moses go down to the Egypt land; go down Moses, go down Moses and tell Old Pharoh to Let My People Go! Our Cantor even sang that old black spiritual at our Passover Seder.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I don't disagree that payback is a bitch, nor that the plagues were natural and not from god. However, that isn't how the religion sees it (nor due Christians). I realize that the slaves saw a parallel with their plight as well.

What I meant is "I am confused?" is I wonder why I have seen a lot of posts (across various Objectivist related boards) that make it seem like Judaism is a religion "better" or less guilty of damage than others.

Edited to add: I apologize - I should have noticed this was in the humor section and brought this up on a separate thread in another section. I will do that this weekend, when I can better explain my question - sorry to distract from the original joke as well as Barbara's story.

[BaalChatzaf]

.

What I meant is "I am confused?" is I wonder why I have seen a lot of posts (across various Objectivist related boards) that make it seem like Judaism is a religion "better" or less guilty of damage than others.

Judaism has a rational objective ethical core within. Strip off the supernatural and ritualistic stuff and what you have left, you could easily agree with. What is left is not tainted by mawkish sentimentality as is Christianity. What is left is hard-core discernment of right and wrong.

I often mention that it is no coincidence that Objectivism was created by someone brought up in the Jewish culture. In fact the "first generation" Objectivists were mostly culturally Jewish although not observant. How come? For starters, Judaism is a properterian religion. It makes a distinction between what is mine and what belongs to someone else. Second, it emphasizes the centrality of contracts. Promises and commitments made for which value is received, must be kept. These are side effects of the original conditions in Judaism flourished. That is in a Bedouin culture where survival was close to the margins. Property had to be guarded, the flocks kept well or starvation and thirst follow rapidly. People had to keep their word. People who live close to the death margin become very tough if they are to survive. There is little room for error.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Alfonso Jones]

.

What I meant is "I am confused?" is I wonder why I have seen a lot of posts (across various Objectivist related boards) that make it seem like Judaism is a religion "better" or less guilty of damage than others.

Judaism has a rational objective ethical core within. Strip off the supernatural and ritualistic stuff and what you have left, you could easily agree with. What is left is not tainted by mawkish sentimentality as is Christianity. What is left is hard-core discernment of right and wrong.

I often mention that it is no coincidence that Objectivism was created by someone brought up in the Jewish culture. In fact the "first generation" Objectivists were mostly culturally Jewish although not observant. How come? For starters, Judaism is a properterian religion. It makes a distinction between what is mine and what belongs to someone else. Second, it emphasizes the centrality of contracts. Promises and commitments made for which value is received, must be kept. These are side effects of the original conditions in Judaism flourished. That is in a Bedouin culture where survival was close to the margins. Property had to be guarded, the flocks kept well or starvation and thirst follow rapidly. People had to keep their word. People who live close to the death margin become very tough if they are to survive. There is little room for error.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Bob - - -

I'm glad you're on this list. At times, you can infuriate - - and I think you enjoy that. But you also make a LOT of sense some of the time, and I'm glad you're here making your points.

Regarding "Propertarian" - - -read LeGuin, I gather?

Bill P

[Selene]

Thom:

Agreed. I was commenting to my friend about how fascinating any thread on this forum can germinate into remarkable observations and inspirations.

I intended this just to be a light thread and since I am just learning to post in a category, I actually "efforted" finding a thread that started as "humor" in the search menu and opened the last post and then started a new topic from there! lol

Perhaps Michael can grab Barbara's shared story as the start of a new thread on the meaning of forgiveness.

Adam