Black Hole

[BaalChatzaf]

It has been said that the ultimate flaw of Democracy is that when you give the People (through their representatives) the key to the treasury, the majority will loot it. Well, given the Abomination recently passed by Congress it has happened. The Democrats have been waiting for twenty years for complete control of the government and now they have it. The "bailout" is an obscene orgy of pork stuffing. Little of the allocation will have the effect of boosting the economy.

What they have done is created a fiscal Black Hole. They have gone so deep into debt that if the next three generations of Americans dedicated their entire lives to paying down this debt they could not succeed. The debt cannot be repaid! The characteristic of a Black Hole is that once in, never out. Exiting would violate physical laws. Our legal system and contractual system as it is will make it impossible to get out.

We are so deep in the hole that it looks like fiscal and financial collapse is just a matter of a few years. When it happens, all of our physical capital will still be intact. Most of our intellectual capital will still be intact. We will simply have to cancel the system and start from scratch.

There is only one problem with this: We have enemies Out There armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and when we go bust it is questionable whether we will still have a capable military. So what will happen.

If we were not surrounded by enemies, going bust might actually be a blessing in disguise. But given the military realities of the world I have some grave concerns.

I am not worried for myself. I weep and tremble for my children and grandchildren.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

Baal; Good points and good post. All of these problems have me shaking my head a lot.

[galtgulch]

I have some grave concerns.

I am not worried for myself. I weep and tremble for my children and grandchildren.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Buy silver and gold!

Hopefully by then there will be enough people who have taken the trouble to learn about Objectivism and Austrian Free Market Economics to restart.

www.campaignforliberty.com 103918 It is growing around the clock and around the world. 18Feb 103987

gulch

Edited February 18, 2009 by galtgulch

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

The USA government will have no choice but to follow the footsteps of Brazil.

1. Issue special bonds to pay people under different kinds of ruses and enticements.

2. When those no longer work, shove the bonds down people's throat by law and invent things like "compulsory loan" for different kinds of consumption.

3. Change the rules all over the place using the same obscure wording that the bill was drafted in, especially regarding redemption, so defaulting is easy and permanent.

Debt problem solved for our grandchildren.

The Chinese (who are going to be the ones to loan us all the money from Obama's plan) get left holding the stick. They may not like that, so this might create a different kind of problem for our grandchildren...

Michael

[galtgulch]

Bob,

The USA government will have no choice but to follow the footsteps of Brazil.

1. Issue special bonds to pay people under different kinds of ruses and enticements.

2. When those no longer work, shove the bonds down people's throat by law and invent things like "compulsory loan" for different kinds of consumption.

3. Change the rules all over the place using the same obscure wording that the bill was drafted in, especially regarding redemption, so defaulting is easy and permanent.

Debt problem solved for our grandchildren.

The Chinese (who are going to be the ones to loan us all the money from Obama's plan) get left holding the stick. They may not like that, so this might create a different kind of problem for our grandchildren...

Michael

More than likely we are going to experience a degree of fascism not socialism. As Ayn Rand explained the difference between the two, in one there remains nominal ownership, in name only, while the govt dictates most everything about how your business or property is used. In the other the govt owns everything including you and the land you are standing on and proceeds to push you around for the alleged benefit of whomever the dictator decides. Obama has the attitude: "I won. I trump that!"

What Obama says, goes!

He may not bring back the Fairness Doctrine and has assured us he will not, but I expect that he will just give it another name, which amounts to the same thing. ACORN now has a couple of billion dollars taken from us and will be using some of it to try to close down talk radio and any site on the internet which contradicts or criticizes those in power now.

More reason than ever to rise up and join www.campaignforliberty.com 18Feb 103990, 9PM 104024

gulch

Edited February 19, 2009 by galtgulch

[Christopher]

Not necessarily a political issue though, is it? A quick analysis will demonstrate that the majority of Federal debt ( >90% I believe) has been issued under Republican executive leadership (although many are quick to highlight that Congress is often Democratically-ruled during such times). Equally, Bush passed a stimulus bill equivalent to Obama's (and despite a democrat-based congress, executive branch introduced the bill, won popular support for it, and was the primary driver).

All that politics aside, I have an eerie feeling about the future of the US financially. I don't even mind paying back loans that the government makes for me when I receive in the process, but the fact is I personally will receive little to no benefit directly from any stimulus package. The best government in a 2-party system is one where neither party dominates (and where both parties can't agree on anything). The less government does, the better off we are - no matter whose hands the government is in.

Christopher

btw: anyone know of a forum here that rants against democracy as form of government? It might be nice.

[galtgulch]

Not necessarily a political issue though, is it? A quick analysis will demonstrate that the majority of Federal debt ( >90% I believe) has been issued under Republican executive leadership (although many are quick to highlight that Congress is often Democratically-ruled during such times). Equally, Bush passed a stimulus bill equivalent to Obama's (and despite a democrat-based congress, executive branch introduced the bill, won popular support for it, and was the primary driver).

All that politics aside, I have an eerie feeling about the future of the US financially. I don't even mind paying back loans that the government makes for me when I receive in the process, but the fact is I personally will receive little to no benefit directly from any stimulus package. The best government in a 2-party system is one where neither party dominates (and where both parties can't agree on anything). The less government does, the better off we are - no matter whose hands the government is in.

Christopher

btw: anyone know of a forum here that rants against democracy as form of government? It might be nice.

Christopher, Michael would point out to you that there is a rant forum devoted to whatever subject you may wish to rant about.

You eerie feeling is shared by many across the country regarding the financial future. The gang in power finds itself in a position to throw money, other peoples money, newly minted money, soon to be inflated out of existence money, at whichever politically motivated targets they can dream of. They are drunk with the thrill of it and there will be no stopping them in this egregiously destructive endeavor. In the process they will endear themselves to people who might otherwise lose a home they could not afford and to employees of companies which would otherwise go out of business. But in the end the recession will be prolonged, unemployment will go up, inflation will push prices out of reach, and savings in dollar denominated investments or accounts will lose value, crime will surge, and the country will be weaker.

Are you familiar with the writings of the Austrian economists, Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard, F.A. Hayek etc? Those of us who have appreciate how the government's tinkering with its interventions, both monetary and fiscal, cause dislocations and unintended consequences such as we are enduring. Politicians never admit their responsibility for what happens and just intervene even more in a futile attempt to correct what they have wrought. Notice Obama claimed that the govt was not responsible for the current crisis and blamed it on irresponsible and greedy whereas it was indeed the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 which led to bankers being forced to lower their standards in return for higher ratings under that law.

www.mises.com www.cafehayek.com http://austrianeconomists.typepad.com/

I remain hopeful because I am aware that better understanding of our plight exists and so the antidote is known to at least many of us across the country. There are teachers and professors who are able to enlighten their students with proper understanding. In time these ideas will find their way into positions of power. Every mind counts and is important. One mind at a time. www.campaignforliberty.com is one of many paths to this objective. Tonight another milestone was reached as there are now over 104000 in the movement and it is taking about a week or so for another increment of 1000 people to be added.

gulch

[Christopher]

The gang in power finds itself in a position to throw money, other peoples money, newly minted money, soon to be inflated out of existence money...

Are you familiar with the writings of the Austrian economists, Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard, F.A. Hayek etc? ...

www.mises.com www.cafehayek.com http://austrianeconomists.typepad.com/

I recently purchased a beautiful bound volume by Mises, though I have yet to read. I may check out that link of yours in any case.

Interesting that you mention the economics of our loss via stimulus plan, I was equally tempted. Economics is complex, confounding, and straight-up confusing. You're right, the government doesn't necessarily steal $800 billion dollars directly, it does a lot of stealing through the hidden mechanism of monetary flow and inflation. I just wish I owned a business near the spigot. Only the smallest percentage of citizens seem to understand the monetary-flow mechanism (myself just recently and only with a rudimentary recognition).

Democracy only works with an educated population, and the level of education required to vote on monetary policies is far above the average level of education in the US. That's not to insult the average US citizen (this stuff is hard), it's just to say that either democracy is the wrong choice in such matters or that government ought to have greater restrictions placed on it. I think everyone on this forum condones the latter.

Christopher

[BaalChatzaf]

For those who do not wish a hard copy of Von Mises book on money and credit go here:

http://mises.org/books/tmc.pdf

About 500 pages of .pdf file.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[tjohnson]

It has been said that the ultimate flaw of Democracy is that when you give the People (through their representatives) the key to the treasury, the majority will loot it.

I have read that the ultimate flaw with democracy is that in a typical situation the majority is usually wrong. This is becoming more of a problem as society becomes more complex because one may need to specialize in a certain area to make educated opinions.

[syrakusos]

In 1900 when the dollar was gold and the government was small

Statistical Incomes

Average of all Industries $ 438/year

State and Local Government Workers $ 590/year

Public School Teacher $ 328/year

Building Trades 37 ¢/hour Working week: 48.3 h.

Medical/Health Services Worker $ 256/year

In 1900, the national debt was

$ 2,136,961,091.67

US Pop was

76,094,000

Average per capita government debt:

$28 per person or about one month's wages, a bit less for most...

Right now the national debt is $10 trillion for 300 million people

or about $30,000 per person, a bit less than one YEAR'S income,

[bmacwilliam]

Democracy only works with an educated population, and the level of education required to vote on monetary policies is far above the average level of education in the US. That's not to insult the average US citizen (this stuff is hard), it's just to say that either democracy is the wrong choice in such matters or that government ought to have greater restrictions placed on it. I think everyone on this forum condones the latter.

Democracy though is not just "majority-rule" carte-blanche. In fact a constitution at least in part exists to protect individuals and minorities from the majority and/or government regardless of the will of either.