SATIRE AS A MORAL MESSAGE?

[Kevin Haggerty]

Hey Michael,

I've been good, very productive and I've actually gotten paid for my creativity (not much, but more than I've made for what I do best in a good long while). It's a great feeling, one that I dearly want to have occasion to feel more and more as time goes by.

Y'know, I gotta stick to my disagreement here. I don't think Rand has a clue about humor. Really. I'm gonna stick my neck out and say that if we can look at humor objectively (very difficult when we have such strong reactions to some people's idea of a joke), humor is, in terms of reality, healthy. Period. If folks are truly busting a gut over the most disgusting, vicious joke, it's doing their mind and body some good.

We can mix our hatreds into it, of course, our racism, sexism, etc. but I believe that what makes the joke funny qua funny is not the racism, sexism, etc. but, and you can quote me on this, the inversion of accepted norms. Thus in a clausterphobically p.c. context, an un-p.c. joke will be much funnier than in a context that is more free of fauning social conservatism. Children (and childish adults) are far more likely to laugh at prat-falls, fart jokes and the like because children are still learning that life is a whole lot messier and chaotic than their well-intentioned parents would have them believe. A fart joke in that context is a moment of relief (sorry) from the conventional lies we teach children about being "good boys and girls."

A wise friend of mine once told me that people ridicule other people whom they feel have unjustified power. Boys on the virge of adolescence will be particularly aggressive in their ridicule of girls because they intuitively know the power such creatures will soon have in their lives. We ridicule out of fear and out of envy, but the underlying meaning of ridicule is psychological balance. Psychologically, girls can be too powerful in a hormonally overwhelmed boy's world and so he conpensates by making fun of them. To the degree that his joke is actually funny (i.e.: makes him laugh) the balancing is certainly necessary and healthy.

Of course a joke can be taken too far; it can start out as a healthy expression of ambivalence and turn into an ugly, humorless put-down. I think the exchange in this thread between Nick and Gary illustrates this in Gary's responses. He begins by finding holes in Nick's argument and ends by being simply insulting. As always, what makes a joke a hateful insult or delicious irony comes down to that old Oist favorite: context.

-Kevin

[Paul Mawdsley]

Nick wrote:

*If you are going to throw crap at me for that, then go for it. It doesn’t bother me.*

I don’t buy that, Nick. You have consistently demonstrated that a lot bothers you. What you have not demonstrated is an understanding of your own causal role, your own responsibility, in initiating the crap that is thrown at you. For all you have read, for all the diversity of ideas you have brought together, and for the value you might bring to a forum such as this, you have no clue why others get tired of what you have to say. It has nothing to do with your ideas. It has everything to do with presentation and marketing strategy.

Consider asking yourself the following questions:

• What do I do to turn people off?

• Do I listen to others to understand their point of view or do I just to look for opportunities to express my own?

• Are the conclusions I have reached about others justified or should I consider reevaluating?

• Is the person I am presenting to others a reflection of my authentic self or is it a self-defensive/offensive alter-ego I use in certain social contexts?

• Can I affect the answers to these questions and change my social dynamics?

I suggest these questions because, even though it is not a place to get stuck, sometimes a little self-reflection is in order. You seem to be very good at rubbing people the wrong way. I can be good at that too. I have a sense I may have gently rubbed some people here the wrong way too. I can have a tendency to slip into a type of psychological solipsism where I stop listening to others for the sake of understanding their points of view, I become obsessed with expressing my own, I jump to conclusions about others, and I present a self-defensive/offensive alter-ego. When I’m like this I have noticed I tend to turn others off. However, I have found I can change this process and change my social dynamics. I’m not locked into this mode. I find the answer always comes down to being more centred inside my own authenticity.

People are real and like to be treated as such. They are not just psychic entities in someone’s imagination. They have intrinsic value and deserve the respect of their real person being perceived without distortion. Healthy people also like to perceive others without the projected pretence of an inflated self-image. They like to listen to those who listen to them. Authentic psychological visibility is profoundly important in the generation and maintenance of relationships. It requires the interactive expression and perception of authentic selves. This also happens to be a key element of the process that generates, expresses and maintains healthy self-esteem. If you value your ideas, why not consider reevaluating your presentation and marketing strategy? If you value yourself, why not reevaluate the image you project? If you value others, why not reevaluate the image of them you have in your mind and the attention you pay to who they are? I have.

Paul

[Kat]

Happy Birthday Roger and hello Kevin, it's great to see you back in action and good form, too! I agree that Rand was quite lacking in the humor department, but she was a philosopher, not a comedian so I don't really fault her for simply not getting it. That wasn't her department.

Nick, I agree that that tsunami song was way over the line and not funny. Sometimes tastelessness is humorous, but in the case of a disaster like the tsunami, Katrina or 911, there is not much about the situation worth laughing about. I did find some of your other comments to be a bit inflamatory and rather PC. No need to be so affected. An occasional ethnic joke does not make someone a racist. Lighten up.

Kat

[Barbara Branden]

I think there is a valid point to Nick's objections that is worth considering.

I must say that I often find ethnic humor very funny indeed -- including Jewish humor, which is amost always self-directed. I don't know how many of you will remember this, but there was a period a number of years ago when there was a spate of Polish jokes that were killingly funny. I had a coffee mug which made me laugh whenever I saw it. On it was written: Polish Mug -- and when wondered what could make a mug Polish, one saw that the handle was on the inside!

However, when humor has a nasty bite to it, and when that bite is directed at a group that has been persecuted and that still is often regarded with the animus that created the persecution, that's another matter. I, for one, would not be amused by jokes about Jews that contained insults of the sort commonly used against them in Nazi Germany -- or jokes about Japanese that were reminiscent of the racism that sent them to camps during World War !!.

Barbara

[gary williams]

I know the following to be true.

MSK is bored with this thread & this forum, that is why Victor is here!

(Am I wrong? You needed a challenger, now you have it! You can't fool me.)

et tu...

Pol Pot is an Asian and evil.

Hitler was white and evil.

Mussollini was evil and white.

Mao was Asian and evil.

African tribes hunted Africans to sell to Arabs who sold slaves to Anglos.

Hitler was evil.

Tojo was evil.

Stalin was evil.

Che Guevara was evil.

Franklin Roosevelt was evil.

Fidel Castro is evil.

Hugo Chaves is evil.

Do you agree Nick?

Also -

People are real and like to be treated as such. They are not just psychic entities in someone’s imagination. They have intrinsic value and deserve the respect of their real person being perceived without distortion. Healthy people also like to perceive others without the projected pretence of an inflated self-image. They like to listen to those who listen to them. Authentic psychological visibility is profoundly important in the generation and maintenance of relationships. It requires the interactive expression and perception of authentic selves. This also happens to be a key element of the process that generates, expresses and maintains healthy self-esteem. If you value your ideas, why not consider reevaluating your presentation and marketing strategy? If you value yourself, why not reevaluate the image you project? If you value others, why not reevaluate the image of them you have in your mind and the attention you pay to who they are? I have.

This is from a man, a real man, who once was snapping at my jugular.

Canuck Bastard!

Now I call him.....friend. He earned my respect.

It really isn't that hard! Just use reason.

gw

[C. Jordan]

Here are a few jokes, ethnic and otherwise. For the record: I'm ancestrally Polish.

A guy walks into Wrczewski's Bar and says, "Hey, guys, I've got a great Polack joke."

The bartender says: "Look at the sign, you idiot. EVERYONE IN HERE IS A POLACK. Are you sure you want to tell it?"

The man thinks. "Maybe if I tell it slowly?"

My fiancée is somewhat older than I am. She remembers the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644.) Me? I'm not that old. I only remember the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911.)

I know a few jokes about the Army, and some of them are vulgar. The rest are obscene. From whom do I hear them? Usually from soldiers.

Here's a Russian joke, told by a Russian:

"General Shmirnov told his men, you are stupid. Those Russians over there are not rich. General, they say, how do you know? Is easy, says the General: they still live in Russia."

I know plenty of ethnic jokes. But don't tell me jokes about my own group. Why not? I might agree with them.

As to my singing, people have heard me sing "Growing Up." They ask me, who sings that song? I tell them it's Peter Gabriel.

"That's great," they reply. "Now let's keep it that way."

Or, why does Peter Gabriel sing "Growing Up"? So that I won't have to.

Did someone out there make fun of my singing? Dude, you can't do that. I have a younger brother. It's his job to make fun of my singing.

I'll close with a couple of Belgian jokes. They're popular in France and in the Netherlands.

"Why do birds fly over Belgium with one wing?"

[flap one arm and hold your nose]

Two Europeans meet. "Good evening," said one gentleman. "I'm with the Belgian Ministry of Culture."

"I'm pleased to meet you, sir," said the other. "I am an Admiral in the Swiss Navy."

*****************************************

epilogue: "Well, Chrys: did you tell your jokes at the Objectivist Living Forum? And did they ask you to come back and do more comedy?"

"Yes and no, dear."

"What do you mean?"

"They actually dared me to come back."

[gary williams]

or jokes about Japanese that were reminiscent of the racism that sent them to camps during World War !!.

I would like anyone to name someone who has done so.

Has anyone here done so?

Sorry Barbara,

Can't let this one go.

And what about German Americans in camps?

Do they count?

Or did you simply not know that German Americans were put into camps?

They were.

Of course you do not hear their desendents whining!

Makes all the difference!

What about other something-Americans?

Here is a true story -

My uncle from my Irish side was captured in Korea.

He never told many stories, as us soldiers are prone to not do.

But he was fond of this story -

He was captured by the Chinese.

He was tortured for approx. 9 months. (I bet it was by white guys.)

He was found to know nothing, so with the allies coming closer and closer to the Chinese position.....he was to be executed!

One very brutal guard, as he told it, was determined to make his death, well brutal!

The Chinese guard stuck his pistol into my uncles.......um...rectum.......

and pulled the trigger.

I do not know much about the suffering he recieved due to his wound...

But you can imagine what being shot up your yahoo must feel like.

But I do know that to him, his greatest moment was being discovered...... by an Irish soldier in the Queens Armed Forces!

In his words -

"I told him..."They shot me in me arse! If I were English, that would'a taken me head clean off!!!""

Classic!

True story, as told by a Korean war veteran.

I wonder where I get me sense of humor?

Damn Irish!

Of course he was shot up his ass by an Asian.

Nevermind, that means nothing to the touchy feely victims of today!

Pearl Harbor was attacked by Asians.

Nevermind, that means nothing to the touchy feely victims of today!

Nanking was raped by Asians.

Nevermind, that means nothing to the touchy feely victims of today!

Korea was forced to provide sex slaves to Asians.

Nevermind, that means nothing to the touchy feely victims of today!

Race is repugnant to me.

Pick a race, any race and I will show you men who are evil.

I will show you horrors that you can not imagine.

Only the mind rules.

gw

[gary williams]

I know a few jokes about the Army, and some of them are vulgar. The rest are obscene. From whom do I hear them? Usually from soldiers

I'm game!

Vulgar and obscene are my middle names!

Go for it.

gw

[NickOtani]

I don’t buy that, Nick. You have consistently demonstrated that a lot bothers you. What you have not demonstrated is an understanding of your own causal role, your own responsibility, in initiating the crap that is thrown at you. For all you have read, for all the diversity of ideas you have brought together, and for the value you might bring to a forum such as this, you have no clue why others get tired of what you have to say. It has nothing to do with your ideas. It has everything to do with presentation and marketing strategy.

I don’t care what you buy, Paul. And, I don’t live to please other people. If I turn you or other people off, so be it. Don’t read me. It’s your choice.

Do I listen to others to understand their point of view or do I just to look for opportunities to express my own?

I think I give others an opportunity to say what they are going to say, and then I judge them on it. That’s what I’ve done with GW. Perhaps with you I floated a hypothesis, waiting for you to correct me if I was wrong. You threw a hissy fit. Had I responded with equal authenticity, I’d probably be banned by now.

…Healthy people also like to perceive others without the projected pretence of an inflated self-image. They like to listen to those who listen to them. Authentic psychological visibility is profoundly important in the generation and maintenance of relationships. It requires the interactive expression and perception of authentic selves. …

I don’t need this lecture, Paul. If you think I have an inflated self-image and I’m not treating you well, why not look at yourself? I’m pretty satisfied with the way I am, even if I do rub "some" people the wrong way.

I agree that Rand was quite lacking in the humor department, but she was a philosopher, not a comedian so I don't really fault her for simply not getting it. That wasn't her department.

Have you read Robert Nozick? Some of his stuff reads like a comedy routine with rim shots.

Nick, I agree that that tsunami song was way over the line and not funny. Sometimes tastelessness is humorous, but in the case of a disaster like the tsunami, Katrina or 911, there is not much about the situation worth laughing about. I did find some of your other comments to be a bit inflamatory and rather PC. No need to be so affected. An occasional ethnic joke does not make someone a racist. Lighten up.

Kat, if you read my posts carefully, you’ll see that I never said an occasional ethnic joke makes one a racist. I did talk about banter among friends. I was very specific about when something can be offensive or a threat to flourishing human survival. Do you think someone suggesting that I would not condemn Poll Pot because he was Asian and that I am anti- White is not being a bit inflammatory?

However, when humor has a nasty bite to it, and when that bite is directed at a group that has been persecuted and that still is often regarded with the animus that created the persecution, that's another matter. I, for one, would not be amused by jokes about Jews that contained insults of the sort commonly used against them in Nazi Germany -- or jokes about Japanese that were reminiscent of the racism that sent them to camps during World War !!.

Thanks, Barbara. I‘m glad that at least you and Kat are willing to denounce attempts at humor like the racist tsunami song. I also lived in Germany for many years and visited the museums which displayed the cartoons and propaganda used to make Jews look mean and scary, like Pluto in Popeye cartoons, while Nazis looked clean-cut, like Dick, Jane, and Sally. This stuff needs to be identified and denounced.

bis bald,

Nick

[Paul Mawdsley]

I’m pretty satisfied with the way I am, even if I do rub "some" people the wrong way.

Good for you Nick. Good luck with that.

Paul

[Paul Mawdsley]

Nick wrote:

*I don’t live to please other people.*

Considering what image one projects and how others perceive oneself is not the equivalent of pleasing others. It is increasing one’s awareness of the available information about one’s existence. There are many ways to react to, or act upon, the understanding gained from such information. Pleasing others would not necessarily be high on my list unless it is someone I truly care about; and then it would only be to the extent that it was authentically in my self-interest. Not considering the image one projects and how others perceive oneself is the equivalent of disowning elements of oneself, ignoring important information about reality, and not in one’s self-interest.

Note: While this post was inspired by something Nick wrote, it’s intent is more to express a thought into the aether. I know Nick is not interested.

Paul

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Paul,

As a side issue, I don't think pleasing others is a bad thing. Because it was elevated to a premise level in The Fountainhead and contrasted with indifference to others at the premise level for artistic reasons, I see many people think pleasing others in itself is a sign of moral weakness. This is a false dichotomy. The choice is not please others or have integrity. The choice is to think for yourself about crucial issues or accept what others think. Pleasing others is secondary (by a long shot) to that.

I can think of one typical situation where pleasing others is a critical virtue - the customer for a capitalist. He better please his customers, otherwise he won't have any. There is a virtuous character in The Fountainhead who existed for the sole purpose of pleasing others: Henry Cameron's business manager. He was the appeaser of customers. He was the one who kept Cameron's nasty disposition from chasing his customers away. Here's a quote from The Fountainhead about him:

He had had an astute business manager, a mild, self-effacing little man of iron who, in the days of his glory, faced quietly the storms of Cameron's temper and brought him clients; Cameron insulted the clients, but the little man made them accept it and come back.

An entertainer or artist must think about pleasing others - some at least - otherwise he won't have an audience. Despite the image promoted of Ayn Rand as being not concerned with pleasing others, she was actually very concerned about finding her kind of public and pleasing it. She was extremely image-conscious. (I think the lessons she learned in Hollywood would be a wonderful essay one day.)

The choice to please others is always a value choice. Do you live to please others? That's not the issue and it is a forced manner of stating the issue. If you sacrifice your knowledge of truth in order to please others, you chose others above truth and make a very poor choice. Peter Keating is a prime example of this.

However, if you decide to please others in order to maintain a value, you are making a very wise choice. For example, if the "other" is the woman you love passionately and her happiness is a primary concern, I would say pleasing her is wise. (I'm not talking about caving into her whims either.) If your value is to see your business grow, pleasing your customer is wise. If your value is to present an artistic work in public or become an entertainer, pleasing your audience is wise.

It is not a sin - not even an Objectivist sin - to be a nice person.

Now to get back to the subject of this thread, humor is another form of pleasing others. When you make someone laugh, you make them feel good. By being the source of what prompted the laughter, you are the source of them feeling good. So one of the values of making jokes or presenting humor is to please others.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that. This is not an evil act in itself. The reason you wish to please others is more the issue.

This is where I part ways with Rand's view on humor. Her focus is on looking down on something - mocking (and that makes the mocker feel good, I suppose, so it is properly "selfish"). Kevin's focus above is that humor prompts others to feel good. My own view is that it is both (even broader, actually).

One thing is certain. Humor can be a form of being nice and it can be a form of exercising cruelty. How you use humor is a value choice.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

So I get home from swing dance class last night, and for some reason I'm thinking about the whole humor thread discussion... I walk into my roomie's bedroom, he's sitting there watching a war film called Crossfire, which is a cheese thing where they're rescuing lepers from some commie Asian camp... We're laughing away at this thing because it's so bad it's almost good. They used the same dozen Asian guys for all the battle scenes, they must've gotten mowed down like fifty times. Same guys over and over... I ask him, do you have any boundaries on your humor? He looks at me and shoots me a riddle:

Q: "Why did the leper fail his driving test?"

A: "Because he left his foot on the brake."

Gotta admit that was a great delivery, and I laughed my ass off. I guess that makes me an insensitive guy. I should turn in my Unitarian ring.

Or not.

[Dragonfly]

That reminds me of:

Q: "What did the leper say to the prostitute?"

A: "Keep the tip"

I'm really fond of "tasteless" jokes (which no doubt proves how depraved I am), I must have somewhere a nice book "Truly Tasteless Jokes" (alas, I can't find it now). Only, it's just like having sex: not suitable in all places at all times.

[NickOtani]

Yes, comedians and entertainers like to please an audience. It isn't a sell-out if the audience is pleased by what the comedians and entertainers enjoy presenting to them. However, if a Black comedian, for example, is pressured by an audience to do Amos and Andy type humor, which he hates, then he is pressured to sell-out, to to be something other than what he authentically wants to be. He is pressured to live for others, not himself.

Rick Nelson sang a song about this when the audience at Madison Square Garden didn't seem to accept the music he wanted to play. He said, "I can't please everybody; I gott'a learn to please myself." I agree with him.

J. Alfred Prufrock was concerned with how other people would see him. He was concerned that people will see the bald spot on his head. "They will say, 'My but his hair is growing thin.'"

I'd rather be a Henley than a Prufrock.

bis bald,

Nick

[gary williams]

Q: "Why did the leper fail his driving test?"

A: "Because he left his foot on the brake."

Q: "What did the leper say to the prostitute?"

A: "Keep the tip"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Those wacky lepers!

Q: Why was the leper hockey game canceled?

A: Because they had a face off at center ice!

gw

[CNA]

Thank you, Barbara. I also laughed at the Polish mug. That's just great. I've heard some hilarious ones as well. My mother is Cherokee Indian and Polish and she at times lived up to those jokes. We've all at times have made fools of ourselves, embarrased ourselves, etc. No one is perfect. But when I've made an ass of myself, I've never had a problem with it and I am able to laugh at myself when it is appropriate.

CJ, I wouldn't mind hearing your vulgar and obscene Army jokes !!

Rich sent me an email called Disorder in the Courts and are actual exchanges between doctors and lawyers or laywers and deponents and some are quite hilarious. I know I've heard some whoppers in my day as well and sometimes tough to keep it together while it is going on.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Nick and Gary,

Do you guys really, I mean really, believe that the other is a racist of some sort? Or are you just in the middle of some kind of Mexican Standoff?

Er...

Oops...

//;-))

Michael

[Roger Bissell]

I have two quadruplegic jokes to share. The first one is pretty offensive and cruel, but it is the setup for the second one, which is (IMO) incredibly hilarious. But perhaps that's just me. I'd appreciate other opinions on this, because perhaps I'm just too freakin' insensitive. OK, here goes...

What do you call a quadruplegic in a swimming pool?

Bob.

What do you call a quadruplegic dog in a swimming pool?

Bob Barker.*

(This is funniest -- or less unfunny -- if you know that Bob Barker was, for many years, a tv game-show host. Even that knowledge, however, will probably not salvage the joke for you, if you have a pet dog that you treat like a person.)

[Paul Mawdsley]

Sorry to interrupt the humour for another aside.

Michael, you wrote:

*...if you decide to please others in order to maintain a value, you are making a very wise choice. For example, if the "other" is the woman you love passionately and her happiness is a primary concern, I would say pleasing her is wise. (I'm not talking about caving into her whims either.) If your value is to see your business grow, pleasing your customer is wise. If your value is to present an artistic work in public or become an entertainer, pleasing your audience is wise.*

I see in what you wrote the same three categories of healthy “pleasing” motivation that I would point to also: there is the motivation to please oneself; there is the motivation to please someone you care for deeply because they are, and to the extent they are, an extension of one’s own interests; and there is the motivation to please someone else as an act of trade. These are all, ultimately, about acting on our own judgement and our own vision for the primary purpose of our own positive responses. Unhealthy pleasing is acting for the primary purpose of someone else’s positive responses so one can bask in the self-image one sees in their, or in some Absolute’s, feedback. Healthy pleasing is an assertion of a strong self. Unhealthy pleasing is an attempt to fill the spiritual void where a self should be.

When I said, “Pleasing others would not necessarily be high on my list unless it is someone I truly care about; and then it would only be to the extent that it was authentically in my self-interest,” I was referring to the second category of “pleasing” motivation. Thanks for drawing my attention to the other categories.

This started with my statement, “Considering what image one projects and how others perceive oneself is not the equivalent of pleasing others.” It is managing the value of what we have to trade with others for the purpose of pleasing ourselves. The higher the value of what we have to trade, the more value we will get in exchange. It is so easy to make the mistake of cutting oneself off from information about how others perceive us in the interests of independence. I think people with psychologically solipsistic tendencies often do this in the interests of independence only to sacrifice opportunities for growth.

Paul

Now, let me get out of the way so others can be funny.

[NickOtani]

Nick and Gary,  

Do you guys really, I mean really, believe that the other is a racist of some sort? Or are you just in the middle of some kind of Mexican Standoff?

If you are serious about the question, I’ll try to answer.

I’m sure there is some personality posturing going on here. Gary is presenting himself as the likable, fun-loving guy who is running up against an arrogant, pretentious, stiff, stick-in-the-mud, stick–up-his-ass, buzz killer named Nick, a person who comes here and judges everybody, acts like he is superior to everybody, like he is some kind of Ayn Rand or something. He reminds us of Icabod Craine, and we can run him out of here just as old Icabod was run out of Sleepy Hollow. We’ll all just not take him seriously, and that will drive him crazy. Just watch.

However, there are some times when we should be serious. When I ask someone straight out what he or she thinks of an obviously malicious joke, the correct response is to condemn it. To blow it off is to allow evil when one could do something about it.

I suspect that if Gary were asked about the tsunami song by someone he respected more than he respects me, he would probably condemn it. He’s just not going to take me seriously or concede anything to me in this little flame war. It is not the place where he wants to show his vulnerable side. Someone might treat him like he and others are trying to treat me.

Bis bald,

Nick

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Nick,

I'm trying to lighten things up because I don't want flame wars on OL at all. Period. I want it to stop.

Everybody,

Please? Let's stop flaming? Here is a suggestion.

Nick is sensitive about bigotry. I don't know why, but I am going on a presumption that he has sound personal reasons. However, I don't want to blow anyones high, either. Some of these jokes are outrageously funny and Paul, Roger and Gary are some of my favorite people.

So why not exclude Nick from these jokes? They bother him and I think he is sincere about this. Baiting him only makes him go farther down the road of bad vibes.

And Nick, why not ignore these things when they are not directed at you - and why not stop insinuating that some of the best OL posters are bigots? They are not.

Michael

[NickOtani]

Did Gary not insinuate that I was?

I don't think I did insinuate that anyone else was a bigot.

Don't worry. I'm outta here.

For those who seriously want to get into controversial issues and take a stand, perhaps try to make a difference in the world at the level of messageboard philosophy, I'll be either at the TOC or my own board, NickOtani'sNeo-Objectivism.

bis bald,

Nick

[gary williams]

Please? Let's stop flaming?

Damn it! Party Pooper!

And I was getting ready to suggest that Nick wasn't a 'little' flamer!

Glad I didn't do that; you might' gotten testy with me!

If anyone is waiting for me to go crazy, well too late!

Sanity is over rated!

Screw the Japs.

Screw Whitey.

Screw chinks.

Screw wetbacks.

Screw ragheads.

Screw kikes.

Screw niggers.

Screw dot heads.

Screw fags.

Screw the homeless.

Screw AIDs patients.

Screw lepers.

Screw Canadians.

Screw the French.

Screw MSK.

Screw the Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect Katdaddy.

Screw the spiritual genocide-ist hater , Roger Bissel.

Screw the rabid, anti-Curmudgeon-ite Rich Engle.

Screw the igloo noogier, Paul Mawdsley.

Screw the Dragonlady, Angie.

Screw Dragonfly.

Screw Captain Kirk.

Screw Shania Twain...........................................................................

................................................................

Sorry, I wanted to linger a while on that last one!

My point for the above post?

Some of those mentioned above can handle it.

Some cannot.

Some will get my point.

Some will scream!

Some will get the joke.

Some will seek vengeance for themselves and their kin.

As I have said before; I find the term 'race' to be repugnant.

I see no use for it except perhaps in purely zoological pursuits.

Philosophically, I should think man, by now, should have evolved beyond 'race.'

Racism is for cavemen. Race is the cave they live in. They are living in the past.

Of course there are other cavemen as well -

Those cavemen who also live in the past by being offended by every racial slight that comes their way. Those who feel the need to rise and defend their long dead caveman ancestors.

The time has come to stop living in the past.

That, I think, is what the beloved Ayn Rand was getting at when she developed her philosophy and wrote her books.

Her philosophy is a philosophy for living. Not living in the past!

Do you think any of her fictional characters would'a given a damn if someone called them.......names? Or made fun of them?

Hell no!

The best example she gave is the famous, "What do you think of me" scene between Toohey and Roark.

What did Roark say and do?

That is how you handle a caveman.

Or, you can whine and moan; feel sorry for yourself, bitch, cry........

But you would not be acting like...man.

Objective man.

Proper man.

Living man.

You would not be evolving.

When you allow words alone to harm you; you are traveling backwards.

When you allow words alone to harm you; you are wanting to live the ancient way.

You want to live in a cave.

I find those who are racist repugnant.

I also find those who allow themselves to be injured by their words, to also be repugnant.

I do not care for either tribe.

I will have my fun with them on internet forums though.

I will respond when I am refered to as a 'middle class white man.'

I will respond when every example of evil is white.

When every example of 'victim' has brown eyes.

(I find the hypocrisy amusing.)

Why do I respond? Because that is why people come to Objectivist web forums.

To talk,

To debate,

To argue......

To disagree.

Two types of personalities clashed on this thread.

One living.

One living in the past.

"It does not matter that only a few in each generation will grasp and achieve the full reality of man’s proper stature—and the rest will betray it. It is those few that move the world and give life its meaning—and it is those few that I have always sought to address. The rest are no concern of mine; it is not me or "The Fountainhead" that they will betray: it is their own souls.”

~ Ayn Rand

She might not of had much of a sense of humor, but...

Damn, she's hot!

gw

I was not born to live as a second-hander.

[Rich Engle]

That's a damn shame. MSK is right, though- there isn't a bigot to be found in this place. Heck, even though I'm still trying to find African-American Objectivists (a true Grail-like quest) , I'm not sure there's much bigot action on any of the O-boards.

Prejudice is based in ignorance, period. Evil comes from hateful thoughts, which often spring from ignorance, whether proprietary or generationally passed/conditioned.

But I'll still laugh at a good hillbilly joke. People need to lighten up. If you can't make it through word-jousting, you're not going to be a good activist, for one thing.

All day I work with inner-city black folk, staff and clients. You know what? They laugh at good nigger jokes. Prejudice isn't something they pick up on from words- it's something they pick up on from the hatred vibe.

Big difference.

rde

If it hadn't been invented in West Virginia,

it would've been called a "Teethbrush"