Do you hunger for freedom?

[galtgulch]

Here is the ideal weight loss program for freedom lovers!

The We The People Foundation is asking for volunteers to submit petitions for redress of grievances to their local Congressmen and Senators on June 30th,

" First, on June 30, 2008, every member of the Congress will be served by one or more of their constituents, at their local district office(s), with seven signed Petitions for Redress of Grievances.

Each Petition for Redress will address a separate violation of the Constitution and will request a response within 40 days (by August 11, 2008).

On July 11, 2008, a declaratory judgment action will be filed in each of the 11 federal judicial circuits outside the District of Columbia. These lawsuits will each seek a Judicial declaration of the obligation of the Government to respond to Petitions for Redress and the Rights of the People if the Government fails to respond.

Prayerfully, there will be sharp disagreements among the Circuit courts, making it difficult for the Supreme Court of the United States not to accept the next invitation to interpret the meaning of the accountability clause of the First Amendment.

Beginning on August 11, 2008, Bob Schulz will begin a hunger fast in Washington DC to draw attention to the fact that the Government of the United States of America has turned on its Free People by violating their Constitution and refusing to be held accountable, choosing instead to allow Americans to once again hunger for freedom and Redress of Grievances.

You can demonstrate your support for the Constitution and the Rule of Law by joining Bob for a day or two or, a weekend or more. A large scale, public hunger fast in the Gandhi tradition is needed, now."

Read the entire Plan at:

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/Updat...e2008-05-22.htm

I intend to join in this effort. It remains to be seen if I will have the courage to withhold taxes which would be difficult as it is all withheld thanks in part to Milton Friedman. I am sufficiently intimidated by the IRS and have family to protect from our oppressive tyrannical government as well.

What possible harm could come from submitting a petition?

In any case the hunger strike would be very healthy for me personally!

On a serious note do we not as citizens have the right as made explicit in the First Amendment to petition the government for redress of grievances?

Wm

[Selene]

Galtgulch:

This is Bob Schultz's group from NY, correct?

I have known by phone Bob for about 20 years or so. Fine man, but he is perilously close to being hammered by the Feds.

He is flirting with UPL.

Adam

[Barbara Branden]

Galtgulch, I think you would be making a tragic -- and utterly futile – mistake if you were to withhold your taxes. The public is not nearly ready to distinguish such acts from those of unprincipled, garden-variety tax evaders who don't pay taxes for the same reason that they don't pay their other and legitimate debts. You would be seen simply as a crook and a crank trying to get away with something, And the odds are great that you would end up in prison, having accomplished nothing.

Battles should be chosen carefully, and those embarked upon should have some real possibility of being won. Or if not fully won, at least have a real possibility of arousing public indignation at an injustice. Refusing to pay taxes, at present, is not one such battle. And there is no value in tilting at windmills.

Barbara

[Robert Campbell]

galtgulch,

Gotta agree with Barbara here.

I see no evidence that any act of public tax resistance, during my lifetime at least, has had any positive impact whatsoever.

It doesn't help that many tax resisters enunciate crank legal theories.

But even if their legal theories were sound, they would have no chance of being accepted by our Federal court system.

If Mr. Schultz had 50 million followers, all ready to refuse to pay income taxes simultaneously, that might be a different story.

How many followers does he have?

Robert Campbell

[Mike11]

The key term here should be low balling. Look at the Xian fundies, they have managed to challenge "Secular Humanists" mainly by taking small steps - "Intelligent Design" in a text book here, teacher led prayer there, "Family Values" here, "Gay Conversion" there. They know they can't simply change the state overnight so they do it piecemeal, that is the approach Libertarians need to take. An advantage of this is it makes the movement broader, if you actually have goals and not an absolute need for narcissistic ideological gratification, this is a good thing.

Example-

There are many, many people who fear the tyrannical aspects of the Patriot Act, if a campaign was launched to roll back specific parts of the act over time the wide support and relative ease of the campaign would bare fruit.

One of the reasons I stopped caring about the political Left is something I detect in Libertarian politics as well, an "All or Nothing" approach that cares less about changing things for the better than remaking some Utopian political order. Its how Animal Rights becomes Animal Liberation or Environmentalism becomes "Liberating the Mother Goddess from Patriarchy in all its forms - like the male dominated color blue in the Sprite Logo!"

I mean come on! Eliminate the Federal Income Tax?

Like the Government, and the millions of Americans who rely on those funds, are going to let it be repealed based on some irrelevant legal argument?

Just how much power do you think Libertarians have over American politics?

[Selene]

Robert and Barbara, with total respect for galtgulch's proper admiration of the principle of tax resistance, which I have thought long hours about:

Barbara and Robert are correct.

I made the fatal mistake of thinking, and believing, that if I presented the facts in a logical legal argument and that those facts, or the argument, were not challenged by the other parties attorney, that I would "win" the case.

I was dead wrong.

The Hearing Examiner said, "Well, Mr. Selene, I can't find fault with a single part of our case, but I just believe the other side, sorry." <and that was exactly what was said on the tape that was transcripted for the appeal.

The Feds will not permit this to go forward and they will use every power, including getting one of the other co-defendant's to turn on you.

By the way, despite the Appellate decision in Texas, I am sure that is what the prosecutors and child protective attorneys have, and are doing to the 456 folks still in illegal detention in Texas - pressuring the young and vulnerable teenagers to make up a set of "facts" and lie under oath.

The stakes for both the Fed's agenda and child protective's agenda are too immense. It is about power and "money" (funding, jobs, political contracts, etc.).

Be very afraid.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There is an industry of scammers who prey on libertarian-minded people.

Quatloos has a good discussion of these scammers and their scams. Don't just look at the forum there. Check out the menu item called "Tax Scams." Quatloos also gives what the law is in realistic terms.

I suggest if you want to fight the good fight, find out what they law is, where it can be beat, and gnaw at it in a manner appropriate to your size, i.e., in a manner that will have real effect and not fill the pockets of scammers.

The food in jail is terrible and gets old fast.

Michael

[galtgulch]

And there is no value in tilting at windmills.

Barbara

I appreciate your comments and concern. I thought I made it clear that I am utterly intimidated by the IRS and long for it to be abolished. I continue to pay taxes with no plans to beat my head against the wall. Sorry if I caused anyone to fear for me. I do wish more people were aware of the response of the politicians to the petitions Mr. Shultz has submitted. Reading the petitions themselves is an education. The fact that the govt does not respond and that the Supreme Court refuses to hear and interpret the First Amendment's last ten words is an abomination and chilling.

www.GiveMeLiberty.org

Did anyone notice that Bob Barr was chosen as the Libertarian Party presidential candidate?

Wm

Edited May 26, 2008 by galtgulch

[Selene]

And there is no value in tilting at windmills.

Barbara

I appreciate your comments and concern. I thought I made it clear that I am utterly intimidated by the IRS and long for it to be abolished. I continue to pay taxes with no plans to beat my head against the wall. Sorry if I caused anyone to fear for me. I do wish more people were aware of the response of the politicians to the petitions Mr. Shultz has submitted. Reading the petitions themselves is an education. The fact that the govt does not respond and that the Supreme Court refuses to hear and interpret the First Amendment's last ten words is an abomination and chilling.

www.GiveMeLiberty.org

Did anyone notice that Bob Barr was chosen as the Libertarian Party presidential candidate?

Wm

Galtgulch:

Since I am a political fanatic, I not only noticed, but I watched it on c-span and dvred [new word]. It was incredible how perfectly the convention went over on C-span. Rand was mentioned over and over again, unfortunately once by the "flower child" Smith, who when she got 6 votes out of the 652 cast on the first ballot, went up and in an angry, pouty, psychotic speech, attacked Bob Barr as a neo-con and reverted to the same internal stupidity that has affected the party for the last twenty-eight years.

Bob Barr puts the party back on the map as a serious force that has finally gotten the message that the nature of a political party is to get candidates elected to office to implement the changes that

they advocate.

The Libertarian trivia question of the day is:

Who won the V.P. race?

Adam

[Selene]

Wayne Allyn Root selected as vice presidential candidate - Candidate Wayne Allyn Root was nominated as the Party's vice presidential candidate by Libertarian delegates at the 2008 Libertarian National Convention.

Libertarian Party selects Bob Barr as 2008 presidential nominee - "I'm sure we will emerge here with the strongest ticket in the history of the Libertarian Party," Barr stated in his victory speech shortly after being selected as the Party's nominee. "I want everybody to remember that we only have 163 days to win this election. We cannot waste one single day."

[Chris Grieb]

It took six ballots to nominate Barr. That maybe the longest LP convention. Was Root nominated on one ballot.

[Selene]

It took six ballots to nominate Barr. That maybe the longest LP convention. Was Root nominated on one ballot.

Two ballots Chris and he is a "home school dad", Jewish and apparently has an IV Expresso line under his suit jacket. Businessman and odds maker from Nevada and he actually made the promise that he would be able to deliver the 12,000 plus on line poker players, small business people and home schoolers to the ticket.

This is the first serious, rational ticket in the last 20 years and I am going to re-join the party, if I get what I want from them in written commitments and money of course.

Adam

P.S. How are you doing with your health situation?

[Selene]

Chris and the rest of you folks who love political conventions:

http://www.lp.org/media/article_588.shtml

This is the ballot by ballot vote, it was a wonderful face of the party to watch - professional and the role call of the states, which was always one of the most enchanting event to me as a child and adult.

The first conventions that I watched with full awareness and knowledge was 1956.

Adam

[galtgulch]

Update on the We The People Foundation's endeavor to petition the government for redress of grievances including the invasion of a sovereign country without formal Congressional declaration of War.

Seven petitions were served to about 400 Congressmen and women. Unfortunately over 100 who had pledged to serve their Congressmen did not do so for whatever reason.

One Congressman turned over the names of the server to the IRS and details of that are available at this link:

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/Updat...e2008-07-18.htm

Read more about the plan which includes a showing of "1776" in theaters across the country followed by ...

Lawsuits will be filed in the Federal Appellate Courts to get the Supreme Court to interpret the last ten words of the First Amendment, the right to petition and the right to withhold one's taxes if the government does not respond.

I should think that my fellow Objectivists, including semi Objectivists and partial Objectivists or whatever you call yourselves would be interested in following the progress of this petition endeavor as they are fighting for our rights too.

Wm

[Selene]

Galt:

"Unfortunately over 100 who had pledged to serve their Congressmen did not do so for whatever reason."

OK. One hundred Congresspersons? Did the one hundred[100] put the pledge in a letter on their Congressional letterhead? If not, the "word", "commitment" and/or other verbal/staff assurances are basically bullshit.

Is this what you meant?

Adam

[galtgulch]

Galt:

"Unfortunately over 100 who had pledged to serve their Congressmen did not do so for whatever reason."

OK. One hundred Congresspersons? Did the one hundred[100] put the pledge in a letter on their Congressional letterhead? If not, the "word", "commitment" and/or other verbal/staff assurances are basically bullshit.

Is this what you meant?

Adam

Bob Schulz founded the We The People Foundation some years ago. He had noticed some corruption in local politics in upstate NY where he lives and he began to look at the activities of the Federal Government with an eye on the Constitution. It didn't take long for him to be aware that the Constitution had been ignored by the Congress whose activities were approved by the Supreme Court. Schulz noticed the overlooked and never exercised right to petition buried prominently at the tail end of the very First Amendment.

He had delivered or served his first petition some years ago and ran afoul of the authorities which had an injunction issued to forbid him from circulating his petitions and also accused him of promoting an illegal tax evasion scheme. It is all documented in detail on his website including his powerful responses at length in which he evokes the Magna Carta and other historical documents which show the importance of the right to petition in the minds of the Founders.

www.GiveMeLiberty.org

Schulz believes the petition process should be a more effective way to restore our Constitutional Republic than electoral politics.

He enlisted volunteers to agree to serve their Congresspersons and U.S. Senators when they were scheduled to be in their home districts on June 30th a couple of weeks ago, all across the country! Volunteers signed up on Schulz' website and Schulz kept his word by sending each of them a DVD which included all seven petitions. Schulz assumed that those who signed up would keep their end of the bargain.

It was not the Congresspersons who let him down in this endeavor, except that at least one so far has turned over the name of the server to the IRS and the Attorney General for prosecution! It is all on the site: www.GiveMeLiberty.org/revolution

Most of those who volunteered did indeed serve their Congresspersons with the petitions on DVDs and got signatures to document that the petitions were served and accepted often by staff in the Congressperson's office.

The next step was to file lawsuits with the regional Federal Appellate Courts of which there are eleven or so. The purpose of that is to assure that pressure is put on the Supreme Court to accept the case to rule on the interpretation of the last ten words of the First Amendment which the SCOTUS has refused to do the last time Schulz tried to take his case up to them.

In the Magna Carta, paragraph 61, King John agrees that if he does not respond to petitions from the people within forty days that the barons could seize his castles, his lands and possessions but not the lives of the King or his family!

When the forty days are up from the time the petitions were served this time on June 30th, on August 11th, Robert Schulz will begin a hunger strike on the Washington Mall for which he has already secured permits to set up tents there.

It is encouraging to see what this one lone citizen is doing to use the rights guaranteed in the Constitution to attempt to get our government back on the course of adherence to the limits enshrined in the Constitution. As you will see if you go to his site and read the petitions and the government lawyers response and his reply to them this man has what it takes not to be intimidated by them. It is an awesome experience when you imagine yourself in his shoes. He has the courage of his convictions and gets those in power to show their true colors, which are not red, white and blue!

I realize we are further along the road to serfdom than I had thought and they will not give up their unjust powers easily. The time to load up and to prepare to storm the barricades may be upon us or else we shall be nothing but a nation of meek, cowering sheep who submit without complaint beneath the heels of our masters.

Wake up America!

Wm

Edited July 21, 2008 by galtgulch

[rush242]

Wake up America!

Don't be naive, America!

[galtgulch]

Wake up America!

Don't be naive, America!

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy...You have to understand most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it". - Morpheus

[rush242]

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy...You have to understand most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it". - Morpheus

"I've always been kind of a pacifist. When I was a kid, my father told me, 'Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it.' I don't know what kind of soldier I'm gonna make, but I want you guys to know that if we ever get into really heavy combat, I'll be right behind you guys. Every step of the way." --Russell Ziskey

[Chris Grieb]

Chris and the rest of you folks who love political conventions:

http://www.lp.org/media/article_588.shtml

This is the ballot by ballot vote, it was a wonderful face of the party to watch - professional and the role call of the states, which was always one of the most enchanting event to me as a child and adult.

The first conventions that I watched with full awareness and knowledge was 1956.

Adam

The link to the ballot by ballot votes no longer works.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

"I've always been kind of a pacifist. When I was a kid, my father told me, 'Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it.' I don't know what kind of soldier I'm gonna make, but I want you guys to know that if we ever get into really heavy combat, I'll be right behind you guys. Every step of the way." --Russell Ziskey

Rush,

I don't know why, but this reminded me of the thought a Marine takes with him when going into battle. He knows that his gun was manufactured by the bidder entering the lowest price. Hows that for an assurance?

Michael

[galtgulch]

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy...You have to understand most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it". - Morpheus

"I've always been kind of a pacifist. When I was a kid, my father told me, 'Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it.' I don't know what kind of soldier I'm gonna make, but I want you guys to know that if we ever get into really heavy combat, I'll be right behind you guys. Every step of the way." --Russell Ziskey

Yo! Rush, Welcome to the battle of ideas! The trick here is to realize that we do not have to literally fight physically for our freedom. At this point it is still possible to engage in the exercise of our rights to speech, the press and assembly, not to mention our right to petition which is all being done to some extent.

Most of our fellow citizens are busy raising families and earning a living, watching television or going to sporting events and playing hobbies. They are not politically active and have not joined the freedom movement. The power elite are in the two major political parties and seek personal gain through them.

Most ordinary people just go about their business, complain about the taxes, complain about the war, complain about the economy, complain about the hopelessness of ever doing anything about any of it and virtually put their head back in the sand.

The young people coming up and the young at heart are the hope for the future. They have the most to lose if things continue on the present course, higher taxes, less freedom. They also have the most to gain and the greatest incentive and motivation to join in the struggle to change the direction of the society.

Despite his flaws, e.g. religiosity and its consequences, Ron Paul has ignited the individual freedom, limited government movement with its reliance on the principles of the Founders, restoration of the Constitution, and the goal of reducing the government to its proper functions. He already received 1.1 million votes in the primaries and his supporters raised tens of millions of dollars without his lifting a finger. He has initiated the www.campaignforliberty.com (CFL) and will launch it further in Minneapolis at his miniconvention a short distance from the Republican convention less than a month from now.

CFL will carry his revolution forward and is already over 77,841 individuals strong and growing (update 8/9/08 11AM EST 80426). Think what it takes for someone to be willing to sign up. They will be running for office probably within the Republican Party but possibly within the Democrat Party too. They will affect the dialog in the debates and campaigns which will be heard by those who labor under the yoke and heel of the ilk of McCain and Obama whose days are numbered.

My point is that the intellectual ammunition provided by Ayn Rand, Ludwig von Mises, Bastiat, Hayek, Hazlitt, Rothbard, and so many others, including all those who write for Reason, The Freeman, Freedom Daily, which are produced by more and more organizations like the Foundation for Economic Education, Future of Freedom Foundation, CATO, Reason, Advocates for Self Government, Society for Individual Liberty, Mises Institute, ARI, Objectivist Center, to mention just a few, will help to fuel the movement and arm those who choose to engage in the struggle to enlighten our fellow productive citizens, especially the younger generation.

The movement is upon us. True there are not as many Objectivists as we would want there to be yet but there is a need and a thirst among many of those who are joining for the kinds of ideas we know exist. I would urge each of us to join and participate in this movement to contribute the ideas we know to be true and necessary to ensure those involved have the best and proper understanding of the issues and principles for which they are fighting.

galt

Edited August 9, 2008 by galtgulch