The barbarians ban the lightbulb

[sjw]

Well maybe I can stuff his mind (read brain) into my boiler and see how many btu's I can get out it. We ARE running out of fossil fuels, btw.

The Sun is running out of hydrogen too, what of it?

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

Let's cut to the premise here. There is no reason whatsoever to conserve energy. Energy is a product in the marketplace like any other. The price system will correctly allocate the product. I don't think this needs explaining to the members of this BBS. Further, we are not running out of resources. To paraphrase Julian Simon, there is only one true resource: the human mind.

Well maybe I can stuff his mind (read brain) into my boiler and see how many btu's I can get out it. We ARE running out of fossil fuels, btw.

"We" ain't me. I'll just pay the higher prices. And who is running out of coal? Not the US. There is potentially more oil available from Canada than Saudi Arabia. We are running out of freedom, that's the problem.

--Brant

[tjohnson]

Old Indian saying - "Indian build small fire and sit close, white man build big fire and spend all his time hauling wood" . Well if you have lots of money - good for you. While you're at it don't insulate your homes either, that saves energy too. Is wasting energy a tenet of Objectivism? Oh sorry, I see you're not an Objectivist anymore.

Edited April 10, 2008 by general semanticist

[Brant Gaede]

Old Indian saying - "Indian build small fire and sit close, white man build big fire and spend all his time hauling wood" . Well if you have lots of money - good for you. While you're at it don't insulate your homes either, that saves energy too. Is wasting energy a tenet of Objectivism?

Non sequiturs, GS, non sequiturs. You sound a little pissed. Reality can do that to people.

--Brant

Edited April 10, 2008 by Brant Gaede

[tjohnson]

Non sequiturs, GS, non sequiturs. You sound a little pissed. Reality can do that to people.

Yes, feeling pretty frisky tonight, I can almost see the grass on my lawn - just another foot of snow to melt and I'm there! Reality is one thing, people are another.

[jordanz]

Well maybe I can stuff his mind (read brain) into my boiler and see how many btu's I can get out it. We ARE running out of fossil fuels, btw.

In a purely literal sense, we're running out of everything. But in any sense that matters we are not. A few points:

• The known reserves of oil will last for at least 50-100 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves)
  
• By the measure of prices, oil is plentiful. Adjusted for inflation, the price of oil has been fairly steady over the years (http://www.forbes.com/static_html/oil/2004/oil.shtml) - though it has changed a lot in the last year or so.
  
• Technology is active. The amount of oil available for use is a direct function of current technology. So, usable oil will increase in the future.
  
• Oil used to be considered a nuisance/waste product. The point is that current technology determines the usefulness of a resource. If oil becomes scarce for some reason another resource will take its place
  

Edited April 10, 2008 by jordanz

[sjw]

Old Indian saying - "Indian build small fire and sit close, white man build big fire and spend all his time hauling wood" . Well if you have lots of money - good for you. While you're at it don't insulate your homes either, that saves energy too. Is wasting energy a tenet of Objectivism? Oh sorry, I see you're not an Objectivist anymore.

I'm kinda thinking the Indians aren't the best source of information regarding how to use technology...

Shayne

[jordanz]

While you're at it don't insulate your homes either, that saves energy too. Is wasting energy a tenet of Objectivism? Oh sorry, I see you're not an Objectivist anymore.

The reason to insulate is to keep your house cool/warm and to save money. That's the only good reason to do it. To do it for the quasi-religious reason of saving energy is irrational.

[tjohnson]

The reason to insulate is to keep your house cool/warm and to save money. That's the only good reason to do it. To do it for the quasi-religious reason of saving energy is irrational.

Money, energy, what's the difference? Energy costs money so save energy = save money.

[sjw]

The reason to insulate is to keep your house cool/warm and to save money. That's the only good reason to do it. To do it for the quasi-religious reason of saving energy is irrational.

Money, energy, what's the difference? Energy costs money so save energy = save money.

You can save the most energy by jumping off a bridge.

Shayne

[jordanz]

Money, energy, what's the difference? Energy costs money so save energy = save money.

The motive makes all the difference. If your goal is to maximize/optimize how you spend your money your behavior will be very different than if your motive is to save energy.

[tjohnson]

In a purely literal sense, we're running out of everything. But in any sense that matters we are not. A few points:

• The known reserves of oil will last for at least 50-100 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves)
  
• By the measure of prices, oil is plentiful. Adjusted for inflation, the price of oil has been fairly steady over the years (http://www.forbes.com/static_html/oil/2004/oil.shtml) - though it has changed a lot in the last year or so.
  
• Technology is active. The amount of oil available for use is a direct function of current technology. So, usable oil will increase in the future.
  
• Oil used to be considered a nuisance/waste product. The point is that current technology determines the usefulness of a resource. If oil becomes scarce for some reason another resource will take its place
  

Are you familiar with the concept of peak oil production? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Estimates for peak oil production worldwide range from right now to 2030. After that, production will start to decrease. We will reach this peak soon, count on it. We have to find new energy sources now and one of the largest untapped energy sources is conservation, believe it or not.

[tjohnson]

"Know-it-all" is a phrase used to refer to people who know something by those who know nothing.

"Know-it-all" is a phrase used to refer to people who think they know it all.

[tjohnson]

The motive makes all the difference. If your goal is to maximize/optimize how you spend your money your behavior will be very different than if your motive is to save energy.

A difference without a distinction. Methinks you are splitting hairs.

[jordanz]

Are you familiar with the concept of peak oil production? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Estimates for peak oil production worldwide range from right now to 2030. After that, production will start to decrease. We will reach this peak soon, count on it.

That's over 20 years from now. I see no reason not to expect technology to change this equation. Further, the price system will control this. You should read Julian Simon. Your premise that the world is running out oil (or any resource) is not consistent with the facts.

...the largest untapped energy sources is conservation, believe it or not.

I don't believe it. You'll need to provide evidence if you want to convince me.

[jordanz]

The motive makes all the difference. If your goal is to maximize/optimize how you spend your money your behavior will be very different than if your motive is to save energy.

A difference without a distinction. Methinks you are splitting hairs.

People buy a Prius to save energy. They end up spending more money as they rarely make back the extra cost of the car in the gasoline saved. This is not splitting hairs.

[tjohnson]

...the largest untapped energy sources is conservation, believe it or not.

I don't believe it. You'll need to provide evidence if you want to convince me.

Hmm... let's see. If I take this 100 watt bulb out and put in this 23 watt bulb that gives off the same amount of light, I have just produced 77 watts of energy. That was easy! Incandescent bulbs should be called "heat" bulbs not "light" bulbs.

[tjohnson]

People buy a Prius to save energy. They end up spending more money as they rarely make back the extra cost of the car in the gasoline saved. This is not splitting hairs.

That depends entirely on the price of gas, which could very well double or triple in the near future. The cost of energy can do nothing but rise over time, I don't see how you cannot see this. To develop the tar sands in Alberta it had to wait until the price of oil got high enough and the same with solar and wind power. But the price of energy will never go down, the days of cheap fossil fuels are gone.

[jordanz]

Hmm... let's see. If I take this 100 watt bulb out and put in this 23 watt bulb that gives off the same amount of light, I have just produced 77 watts of energy. That was easy! Incandescent bulbs should be called "heat" bulbs not "light" bulbs.

Your logic is faulty. Energy is produced based on demand. If the demand goes down the amount produced will go down. Not using something doesn't produce anything. It does, however, reduce demand.

BTW - that CFL you're referring to produces a different light than the incandescent. I prefer the incandescent.

[jordanz]

That depends entirely on the price of gas, which could very well double or triple in the near future. The cost of energy can do nothing but rise over time, I don't see how you cannot see this. To develop the tar sands in Alberta it had to wait until the price of oil got high enough and the same with solar and wind power. But the price of energy will never go down, the days of cheap fossil fuels are gone.

You need to check your facts. As I showed in a previous comment the cost of energy has indeed gone down at times. It will fluctuate over time. The direction of the fluctuation can't be known in advance. If it could, I would suggest buying energy futures ;)

[tjohnson]

Your logic is faulty. Energy is produced based on demand. If the demand goes down the amount produced will go down. Not using something doesn't produce anything. It does, however, reduce demand.

Excuse me?? You think my logic is faulty?? Look what you just said "If the demand goes down the amount produced will go down". Well if you reduce the demand from 100 watts to 23 watts didn't the demand go down?? That means the power company doesn't have to produce so much power and that is the same as finding a new power source. Decrease in demand is equivalent to an increase in supply.

[tjohnson]

You need to check your facts. As I showed in a previous comment the cost of energy has indeed gone down at times. It will fluctuate over time. The direction of the fluctuation can't be known in advance. If it could, I would suggest buying energy futures ;)

You need to check your logic, just because the price of energy stayed consistent in the past does not mean it will in the future. The price of gas has gone up around 50% in the last couple years with no sign that it will be going down again.

[jordanz]

Decrease in demand is equivalent to an increase in supply.

The demand for wooden carriage wheels has gone to essentially zero. Did that increase the supply? Demand for 6502 CPUs has gone to zero. Did that increase the supply?

[Brant Gaede]

Decrease in demand is equivalent to an increase in supply.

The demand for wooden carriage wheels has gone to essentially zero. Did that increase the supply? Demand for 6502 CPUs has gone to zero. Did that increase the supply?

Warehouses full of 'em--if so, yes. We are really talking about supply-demand ratio.

--Brant

Edited April 10, 2008 by Brant Gaede

[jordanz]

** redacted **

In reflection, my comment wasn't very nice so I retract it. Let's agree to disagree

Edited April 10, 2008 by jordanz