Choosing to Remain Childless

[John Dailey]

~ I must admit that I see little point re making a 'pro/con' checklist re the worth of deciding to make a 2-decade commitment to the needs of raising children; such thinking is as if one's deciding about 'investing' in a Lamborghini or a Porsche; you know, the thinking framework of "Is it 'worth' it to *me* the time and energy I'd have to expend in maintaining?"

~ For those who know that they do want that '57 Chevy (or 2007 Lamborghini), not just to 'have' (like, oh, a rare pet or original Vermeer, to show off to others), but to personally work on re studying the needs, improve the capabilities, and, needless to say, maintain/take-care-of re those 'needs' (as in: being "productive" after building/buying is done with), there's no pro/con about it. --- As well, for those who know that they do not want such, there's also no pro/con about it.

~ Same goes for any 'rational' view of becoming a child-raiser (though, here there be legal and medical dragons to additionally consider, granted.) If one thinks that one might, maybe, be sorta, kinda, more-or-less interested in rugrats pitter-patting around...and therefore tolerating/putting-up-with the chores necessitated thereby...fahgedaboudit! Child raising's not for such ones. --- If all one wants is 'company', get a dog (better yet, a cat; much LESS 'work'...'cause they're independent cusses). I.e: if 'chore' is the 1st thing that comes to one's mind, what point even considering it? There's even less point considering what others 'think' (if that's the right word) about choosing to have none; ignore them as best one can.

~ <Aside: sure, there're narcissists whose real concern is James Taggart's intro, but who need to find rationales (not to be confused with rationalizations) to give others; like, oh, Paris Hilton (whatever happened to her chihuahua, anyways?), or others on a lower financial/celebrity scale. Their life is 'busy' parading around others, not exactly 'producing' anything...even for themselves. --- Then there's the gregarious philanthropic service-helpers whose real concern is ADVERTISING how much they help others...especially the anonymous 'needy' (homeless, whoever); like, oh...names are needed here? --- Let's be clear that I'm not talking about those in either of these groups.>

~ If one has NO interest in physical care-taking, or, most most especially, 'teaching' (which is what 'raising' children IS primarily all about). there's nothing to even 'think' about.

~ I oughtta know.

~ I had no 'desire' at any time in my life to have children. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada, e-v-e-n. Dr. House and I have a few personality things in common (typing to forums would obviously not be one of them.) However, I fell in love with someone who 'acquired' grandchildren to raise as hers. Ergo, they came with the territory, so to speak. Now, though I had no 'desire' for children, per se, I 'accepted' having them in my life; and no, not as a 'chore', but, as a necessary part of what I wanted. Their, as her, 'needs' became *my* 'selfish' needs. --- That I discovered way earlier in my life that I have a penchant toward being a 'teacher' (familiarity with Piaget's and Montessori's writings, being an instructor in the military) did help, methinks, in my acquiring an attraction to 1st 'dealing' with there being new children in my life, and then wanting to know more about children's development generally, and thence each of them, uniquely and personally. --- In short, depending on the kids, they CAN 'grow' on you, in spite of yourself. Of course, can doesn't mean will, even with the most likeable children; depends on the *you* as well.

~ Any choice about having children, whether 'naturally' or adopted, rationally requires thinking twice about one's priorities, as above in the analogy re cars, in terms of being "productive" after gestation/adoption, and not in a 'time-investment' manner, but in a life-fitting manner.

~ I stress: if 'teaching', much less 'care-taking'' is not one's bag, it's pointless to debate with one's self about it. One already knows that one just doesn't 'need' children in their life. --- But, if such is, add them in to your life, desiringly or even merely acceptingly...just 'think twice' re finances expectably needed in the next 2 decades (and that's just for one child!)

~ A last thought. I'm male, ergo not hearing any 'ticking clock', but, I must say that any concern about that is, in my view, a concern that any kids one 'chooses' to have apparently must be 'blood-related' (ie: non-adopted) for them to be considered really one's own. Given that the 2 which I'm helping raise are technically my legal-step-grandkids, I find this concern as depressing as when I use to hear on talk shows children, raised by a family who adopted them when they were 1 or 2 yrs old, looking for their "real" mother/father. No; they weren't merely looking for medical history. A "real" mother/father is one who's spent the time/energy/finances in actually raising (care-taking+teaching re necessities of growth) the child; also, that some children have no such parents, and some simultaneously may have more than 2 is beside my point. At this point I'm sure you get my drift.

~ Just my 2 gold-wafers.

LLAP

J:D

Edited September 8, 2006 by John Dailey

[CNA]

Given that the 2 which I'm helping raise are technically my legal-step-grandkids, I find this concern as depressing as when I use to hear on talk shows children, raised by a family who adopted them when they were 1 or 2 yrs old, looking for their "real" mother/father. No; they weren't merely looking for medical history. A "real" mother/father is one who's spent the time/energy/finances in actually raising (care-taking+teaching re necessities of growth) the child.

John,

I most emphatically agree with you. What matters is the parent that you do have that has taken the time and energy and finances, etc., to raise the child. They are the only parent that child has ever known be it a good relationship or a bad relationship. Even though not the biological parent, it doesn't matter. The biological parent evaded taking responsibility for their own child and is an individual I personally would not waste my time and energy to seek out unless there was one hell of a selfish reason for doing so. But the individual such as yourself that does take the responsibility for their significant other's child or children should be commended.

Angie

Edited September 8, 2006 by CNA

[John Dailey]

CNA:

~ Thanx for the comments. We are in agreement on the functional meaning of 'parent' and 'raising.

~ Re those who do give their kids up for raising-by-others (adoption or whatever), I'd say that not ALL are 'evading' their responsibilities. Actually in my case, the blood-mother was most sensible in the legal 'co-parenting'.

~ Ever see The Good Mother with Diane Keaton?

LLAP

J:D

[Judith]

I just now came across this thread, so forgive the lateness of my reply.

I'm in my mid-forties. I chose not to have children, and I actively thank my younger self for having made that decision fairly frequently.

I never actively wanted children, and through my twenties, I kept my options open, but at thirty-one, I was sure enough to make the decision permanent. I often say it was the best thing I've ever done.

When I go through airports or stores or restaurants or other places where babies are screaming and fussing and toddlers are running around and pre-pubescent children are making smart remarks and teenagers are being teenagers, I close my eyes and say, "Thank you, younger self, thank you! Now GET ME OUT OF HERE!"

Consider particularly what one of the other people said earlier about whether you value solitude and silence. I do -- very highly -- and it's one thing you won't have for years on end if you have children.

Consider how important it is to you to read or work or listen to music or do just about anything else uninterrupted, and consider that you won't be able to do that for many years on end if you have children.

Consider your freedom to stay late at work if you wish, or to go somewhere after work on the spur of the moment, or go somewhere for the weekend without tons of planning, and whether you would be able to do that if you had children.

Consider how you want to spend your limited vacation days -- does sitting on the beach watching kids make sand castles or herding kids through Walt Disney World sound like fun to you?

How do you want to spend time with your partner? Do you want the vast majority of it to have something to do with the children? Do you want to risk becoming a "mom" in his eyes, more than a woman?

And consider, also, that you are bound to be seriously sleep-deprived for at least the first few years of the lives of however many children you have. How well do you handle sleep deprivation?

What will you do if you "don't like" your children? Kids tend to be born with distinct personalities, and there's no guarantee you'll be able to raise a little Objectivist; you may have a little Peter/Petra Keating and have to sigh and resign yourself to doing the best you can to set him/her on track for the best possible life he/she can have -- or, you could make both you and the child miserable by tormenting him/her to be someone he or she is not.

Just a few thoughts that come to mind off the top of my head.

Judith

[Barbara Branden]

Fran, I am a person who is very fond of children. It has been important to me, for many years, that a child be an integral part of my life. I have two nephews, whom I love with all my heart, and now I have a grand-niece and grand-nephew, who also are very dear to me. I care about the children in my life, they interest me, I enjoy them immensely. There is a purity in most children, perhaps most evident in their laughter, that gives me hope for the human race. When I think of the children I have loved, I feel as Rand did about the skyscrapers of New York: that I want to protect them with my own body.

Does it seem like a contradiction that I never wanted children of my own? It isn't. This may be a somewhat stretched analogy, but I think it will serve: I passionately love music, but I have never wanted to compose; life without great poetry to enjoy would be sadly impoverished, but I have never wanted to be a poet. I decided very early -- I was about twelve years old -- that the life I wanted would not be possible if I were to have children. It was a decision I have never regretted. I have never missed having children of my own, nor doubted the wisdom, for me, of my original decision.

I have known woman who felt that their lives would be incomplete if they did not become mothers. I respect this feeling, but I have never shared it. I've wondered, sometimes, if there is not something like a "maternal instinct" that exists in some women but not in others. I am one of those women in whom it does not exist.

Barbara

[Paul Mawdsley]

There are times when we experience moments of clarity about ourselves; when we see the elements of who we are-- how the strengths and weaknesses of our character come together to form the whole; when we see how the components of our identity should integrate and point out the direction of our life's path. In NB's terminology, this would be the soft voice of the sage-self telling us what our specific identity requires for fulfillment. This is not some mystical experience. It is our notion of identity and causality applied to our intuitive vision of our self and our life.

As Barbara suggested is common, my life would have felt, to some degree, incomplete if I didn't have kids. It's not because I need them to complete who I am but because who I am needs to be asserted in the world. One of the ways my identity needs to be asserted in the world is as a father, with everything that being a father means. I want the experience. I want the challenge. I want the rewards. If I did not have kids, I would have found other means to assert this part of my character. But having my own children, nurturing their growth, and guiding their development is the ideal. If this particular dynamic is not part of your identity, then other life paths will be in order.

Understanding the dynamics of the elements in one's own psyche, the way these should be integrated into one's identity, and how this identity should be expressed through the course of one's life, is incredibly important for crafting a fulfilling life. The specific answers are as individual as we are but, for each of us, we have our own best answers. "What a thing is determines what it ought to do." The trick to knowing what we ought to do is in understanding what we are and in listening the soft voice inside that tells us.

Paul

(Being a parent everyday can be hard as hell. Damn, I'm glad my wife is better at it than I am. I must say, I did a great job choosing my children's mother. I can never truly express how much I admire her.)

[John Dailey]

~ Personally, I think the Porsche is the better 'investment.'

(...sigh...)

LLAP

J:D

[CNA]

Hi, John

Regarding my earlier post about evasion of responsibility when the child is given up for adoption or "what have you," it not only pertained to women but also men. Unfortunately, I hear it all too often of deadbeat dads. I know many women that are out on their own with children and the father is no where around.

By the way, I haven't seen The Good Mother.

Angie

[Matus1976]

As a now 30 year old male who wants to have children, I thought I would chime in with some comments on the pro-child bearing side. I would like to have children for a few reasons, (off the top of my head...)

1) I can't imagine anything more fascinating than watching a life come into being, and to develop and grow. Watching my friends children make conceptual leaps (especially when I help them do so) is something I find utterly enlightening and absolutely fascinating and it brings me a great deal of Joy. As a scientifically minded person, is there any process in the world more fascinating than bringing a life into the world and preparing it for a life of it's own? I don't think so.

2) I enjoy facing challenges and overcoming them and I believe they make me a better person. Raising a child well (especially in today's world) is certainly a challenge, and should be interesting, and lessons learned will help me become a better person.

3) I do not want to leave the world to fools. As an involved parent you have a lot of influence of the information a child is subjected to and values that become important to them, rationality, honesty, integrity, motivation, dedication, ambition, etc. Being a person that practices these virtues with a great deal of effort, I think it is likely a child of mine would be similiarly minded and as such would have significant impact on the world, possibly making my life better, easier, or longer (or even possibly indefinite) Idiot children of drug addicts certainly will not cure any disease I am likely to get nor invent any new energy source which will add years to my life.

4) The better the mind, the longer the range. I have read that Honda plans for a market 50 years out. While it will take a lot of time and resources to raise a child well, it may well pay off more for you just as any proper investment could. I am a motivated goal oriented highly ambitious person, a child my prevent me from achieving those goals, but conversely they may very well help achieve those goals, if it is what they want to do.

5) Instead of rotting in a nursing home when I am old, I would like to have someone who would want to take care of me out of the respect and admiration and selfish love they feel for me just as I will my parents when they reach that age in trade for bringing me into the world and raising me well.

Also I should note that almost all of the arguments against children can be made against romantic partners as well (e.g. I am too selfish, they take too much time, i have one as a sense of duty, etc) of course this is not applicable in very early years, but it is later on.

Raising a child need not comsume as many resources as is often considered in the west either, children can be put to work early on in things they find a lot of fasincation in doing. I do a lot of welding, metal working, aluminum casting, etc and had my best friends 12 year old daughter work one day in my shop with me, and she absolutely loved it, far more than gossiping or playing with dolls, or whatever 12 year olds do. Her younger sister is very jealous and wants to come next time.

[Kat]

Hi M and welcome to Objectivist Living. It's good to see you here.

It's nice to see that wanting kids is not just a woman-thing. I don't know of many single guys who will come right out and say they want kids. I really like the reasons you gave for being pro-parent, especially number three. Personally, I like having a mini-me.

I guess my general impression has been that men don't want kids. I know that being a single mom drastically reduces your dating prospects. I feel very fortunate that I have finally found someone who wants to be a parent to my kids.

As far as deadbeat dads.... ooooh, don't get me started! I have been raising these kids alone for eight years and my oldest one calls her dad "sperm donor" and for a good reason. He has only seen them once in the last three years. It seems that the father can evade the responsibility of raising the kids all they want. I've found that in the case of divorce the man has all the rights and the woman has all the responsibility. My ex got over $10,000 behind in child support payments and when they caught up with him they only added $10 a week to his payment. He is able to prevent me from leaving the county (yes, county) and make me go through a lot of legal crap and have the burden to prove to the court how leaving the area is in the best interest of the children. It is insane. The courts are pushing joint custody and I stupidly agreed to it to avoid a custody battle (the divorce took nearly three years without it). Now that decision has come to haunt me bigtime.

My advice: Have kids only if you really want them and if you ever divorce, do not agree to joint custody unless you are absolutely certain it won't bite you on the ass!

Kat

[Fran]

Wow! My internet access is patchy and short at the moment so I haven't been able to post as often as I would like. I'm glad that I was able to check OL today - I do miss you all!!!! I really enjoyed reading everybody's posts and it's funny that for the past few months I've been feeling strangely broody ;) However, I think this is partly down to my ticking clock (I'm nearly 33 and they do advise to have kids before age 35), but mainly I think that it's the needs I'm trying to fill. I'm looking for meaning in my life and this is a most pressing need - having children would be ONE strategy for fulfilling this need. Once I became aware of what my need was - my broodiness waned. I'm thinking of better strategies for meeting this need - mostly considering my career and the contribution that I want to make in the world.

I have a nephew and a niece and I enjoy being with them, but I have to say that I'm glad that they're not mine. I love being able to have my space whenever I want it. My sister also has a Wiemaraner puppy called Flo, and she has made me realise how much I desperately miss having a dog in my life. So much so that I want to plan my life to be in a position to have one. (At the moment it's not practical as I live part of the time in UK and part of the time in Cyrpus.) It's interesting that I'm willing to do what is necessary in order to get a dog, as getting one is hugely important to me, but it would feel like a sacrifice if I was to do it in order to have children.

What I'm eternally grateful for, is that I live in a time when contraception makes choosing not to have children an option.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Fran

[Paul Mawdsley]

Fran,

It sounds like you are pretty clear on the path you want your life to take. You seem to be the kind of person who knows herself well. Translating self knowledge into "ought" is the key to getting this path right; this and constantly checking the theory against the evidence.

Paul

[Judith]

My sister also has a Wiemaraner puppy called Flo, and she has made me realise how much I desperately miss having a dog in my life. So much so that I want to plan my life to be in a position to have one. (At the moment it's not practical as I live part of the time in UK and part of the time in Cyrpus.) It's interesting that I'm willing to do what is necessary in order to get a dog, as getting one is hugely important to me, but it would feel like a sacrifice if I was to do it in order to have children.

What I'm eternally grateful for, is that I live in a time when contraception makes choosing not to have children an option.

I feel the same way. I believe that Ayn Rand said somewhere that whoever invented birth control should be made a saint! I often ponder what I would have done had I lived a few hundred years ago. I'd probably have been a nun -- it would have been the only way to pursue a relatively free and intellectual lifestyle. Of course, the celibacy part and the religion part and the vow of obedience wouldn't have gone down very well.... Maybe I'd have been one of those eccentric single women and ended up being burnt at the stake as a witch -- sigh.

I also consider dogs to be an essential part of my life, and I'm willing to put up with an incredible amount of inconvenience to have them there. They ARE a big responsibility, and I believe that in the UK, there are insane quarantine requirements if you're travelling -- something like 9 months if a dog is brought into the country. I wouldn't even consider moving there while my dogs are still living for that reason.

Once you're settled somewhere permanently, there's a great book I recommend to everyone on choosing a dog -- it's called "The Right Dog for You", and it evaluates all the dog breeds by how much exercise they require, how active they are indoors and outdoors, how dominant they are with people and with other dogs, how much coat care they require, how intelligent they are (intelligence isn't always a good thing if you don't have the time to put that intelligence to work; my Mastiffs aren't that smart, and that's a good thing considering how much time I'm away from home -- otherwise, they'd be solving problems like, "What's the most interesting way to eat this couch?" and, "How can I get the biscuits out of the cupboard?"), and just about everything else you need to make an informed decision about choosing a dog to fit your lifestyle. It's just not fair to bring a Border Collie into your life if you work 10 hour days; picking a good match is important for both of you! And if your heart's already set on a certain breed, at least you'll know what you're getting into. Good luck!

Judith

[Barbara Branden]

Judith, you wrote: "I believe that Ayn Rand said somewhere that whoever invented birth control should be made a saint! I often ponder what I would have done had I lived a few hundred years ago."

A few hundred years ago, hell! It was a terrible problem until the birth control pill came out in the late fifties. Before that, there was no method of contraception that was even close to fool-proof --and abortion was illegal, requiring that a woman risk her life with a doctor who was probably a quack in order to have an abortion. It was the Pill that finally made women's liberation a reality, that freed women to make decisions about their lives and futures without the dread hanging over them that love and sex would put an end to all their plans. And even today, if the anti-abortionists have their way, we face the possibility that abortion will once again be illegal. That will not stop many women from having abortions, but it will mean that perhaps thousands of them will die needlessly each year. So much for the"reverence for life" of the anti-abortionists.

Barbara

[Hong]

I don’t think whether or not to have children or to remain childless is ever a simple matter of choice by one person. Are you married? Do you have a life partner who loves you and is willing to raise children with you? Without settling down on these issues, talking about choice to remain childless is pointless. If I were single and were not rich, heck, I wouldn’t want to have any child either. If I had a husband who was firmly against having any child (like my first husband), I wouldn’t want to have children with him either. In fact I did have an abortion when married to my first husband. So, a woman’s feelings in this issue can be very delicate and ever changing depending on circumstances. All my close girlfriends - they are all in their early 40s now - sooner or later succumbed to have child eventually. So now my friends’ children’s ages vary from 3 to 17.

Speaking for myself, deep down I’ve always wanted to have children. The best reason for such a desire is probably that I want to live a life as full as possible, and to experience every aspect of life that’s possible for a woman. Of course, one cannot do everything. But at least at this stage of my life, I can say that I’ve tried my best and lived fullest to my ability and there is absolutely no regret whatsoever. Think further, 10 years, 20 years down the road, will you have regrets?

Edited September 13, 2006 by Hong

[Judith]

Judith, you wrote: "I believe that Ayn Rand said somewhere that whoever invented birth control should be made a saint! I often ponder what I would have done had I lived a few hundred years ago."

A few hundred years ago, hell! It was a terrible problem until the birth control pill came out in the late fifties. Before that, there was no method of contraception that was even close to fool-proof --and abortion was illegal, requiring that a woman risk her life with a doctor who was probably a quack in order to have an abortion. It was the Pill that finally made women's liberation a reality, that freed women to make decisions about their lives and futures without the dread hanging over them that love and sex would put an end to all their plans. And even today, if the anti-abortionists have their way, we face the possibility that abortion will once again be illegal. That will not stop many women from having abortions, but it will mean that perhaps thousands of them will die needlessly each year. So much for the"reverence for life" of the anti-abortionists.

Barbara

Point taken. Now is such a good time to be alive!

In fact, now that you mention it, I remember reading Florence King's "Confessions of a Failed Southern Lady", in which she mentions the elaborate lies she tells the doctor about being "about-to-be-married" when, as a co-ed in the '50s, she gets fitted for a diaphragm. Sigh.

You're quite right, of course; without birth control women can't have any true freedom unless they choose to be celibate, which isn't a real choice at all. (That's why I said I would have been a nun, albeit a very unhappy one.)

Fortunately, at least for now, the anti-abortionists don't seem to be going after most contraceptives (with the exception of the morning-after pill and IUDs, of course), and responsible contraception is usually effective. Still, no method is foolproof. Even tubal ligation has one chance in 2,000 of failure.

I remember thinking, a few months ago, that the proposed federal legislation to make it illegal for anyone other than a parent or guardian to take a minor across state lines to bypass state abortion laws requiring parental notification or consent would cause a great deal of harm to young girls. They would have to get on a train or a bus (or even, gods forbid, hitchhike), all alone, and travel all the way across the country to New York, or Oregon, or DC, or whatever those other few other states are that don't have such legislation, with whatever money they could save or steal, manage to find a place to sleep, get their abortions unassisted, and probably (for financial reasons and legal reasons -- they'd be runaways, remember) leave for home without waiting to see if they would have any medical complications. They'd be at the mercy of predators just like any other runaways. But if they had any spirit at all, they'd do it rather than have babies they didn't want; they'd find a way, and possibly get seriously hurt or killed in the process, all because of this legislation that made it a crime for some friendly adult to give them a hand. Monstrous. One would hope that some kind, generous adults would "ask her to water the plants" while they were on vacation for a few weeks and broadly hint without actually saying where they keep the car keys and a large stash of cash, and then really go away; it would be the only real way to help.

I'm firmly convinced that the only way to settle the abortion debate permanently is to find some way for a woman to induce an abortion privately, safely, and completely unassisted, in her own home, with commonly available materials that can't be traced. It might even come down to biofeedback methods for that matter, but until that technology is available, the issue will rage on.

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Hong!

Welcome to out little abode. It's great to see you here!

I do hope you have a good time among so many good and intelligent people.

Michael

[Fran]

I also consider dogs to be an essential part of my life, and I'm willing to put up with an incredible amount of inconvenience to have them there. They ARE a big responsibility, and I believe that in the UK, there are insane quarantine requirements if you're travelling -- something like 9 months if a dog is brought into the country. I wouldn't even consider moving there while my dogs are still living for that reason.

Judith, just so you know, in case you ever decide to come travelling to the UK with your dogs - the quarantine laws have been replaced with doggy passports, microchipping (the dogs - they've not quite started doing that kind of thing to humans yet) and rabies vaccinations. The microchips are used instead of photos - which is sensible as I think customs would have a hard time distinguishing between all those yellow labradors...

There are lots of Americans and Europeans who bring their dogs to show at Crufts every year. Although you don't have to show your dogs, to be able to take them.

[Judith]

I also consider dogs to be an essential part of my life, and I'm willing to put up with an incredible amount of inconvenience to have them there. They ARE a big responsibility, and I believe that in the UK, there are insane quarantine requirements if you're travelling -- something like 9 months if a dog is brought into the country. I wouldn't even consider moving there while my dogs are still living for that reason.

Judith, just so you know, in case you ever decide to come travelling to the UK with your dogs - the quarantine laws have been replaced with doggy passports, microchipping (the dogs - they've not quite started doing that kind of thing to humans yet) and rabies vaccinations. The microchips are used instead of photos - which is sensible as I think customs would have a hard time distinguishing between all those yellow labradors...

There are lots of Americans and Europeans who bring their dogs to show at Crufts every year. Although you don't have to show your dogs, to be able to take them.

Wow -- thanks for the info!

I wish I'd known that about a year ago. A guy I work with moved to England last year and had to find homes for his dogs because he thought his only other option was the long quarantine period. I'll keep it in mind; people here get transferred every now and then.

My dogs have microchips in case they're ever lost or stolen. I never knew they could be used for international travel!

Judith

[mweiss]

I'm new here, but having a 2 year old daughter myself, I felt compelled to add my thoughts to this thread.

My wife and I were undecided about children for many years. I, being much older and realizing that I may not be around when my child graduates high school, and my wife getting into the risky age where child bearing becomes less of a safe process than for younger females, we had some consideration to both sides of the issue.

We were always broke and waiting for financial success. That never happened, so then we had to make a decision based on other qualifications.

My reasons against having a child were that I was concerned about bringing a child into a world that was most certainly headed for global suffering under totalitarian dictatorship. With the wars and loss of moral ideals rampant, who would want to be alive in such a terrible place?

But then I thought, our child might also be the one to contribute something that might change the world for the better. We decided to go ahead with our plan to have a child.

We had a little girl. Well, I can tell you what it's like to imagine having a child, and the fact that actually having one is vastly different than imagining it. I always felt icky about other people's babies. But when we had Amanda, she was different. Call it chemistry of parents to child, I don't know what it was, but that little girl won our hearts from the first moment I laid eyes on her in the hospital.

As she grew, she would make us laugh. Amanda has been a tremendous source of joy and happiness for us and as we watch her develop and grow, it is the most amazing thing.

Yes, it involves incredible patience, but in my perspective, it's worth it.

There is nothing like the pleasure we get from our little girl climbing up onto our laps and giving us a big hug. Thinking back to my single years, that would sound corny, but the fact today is that most of the joy in my life comes from this little girl.

Choosing whether or not to have a child is not something where there is a right or wrong answer. But for sure, you cannot imagine what it's like to have one by merely holding someone else's baby for a few minutes.

When that child is your child, you see her in a completely different light.

[Fran]

I'm grateful for your post Mark. Whilst I don't want children myself, I want them to be happy and so I'm glad that you enjoy your daughter.

I've just re-read Charles' post. What caught my attention was the part about how loving solitude can be a problem in raising children.

I spent the week before the TOC conference touring Santa Barbara, LA, Las Vegas and Zion with a friend. We had a great time together and I loved Las Vegas the most - it's just soooooo ostentatious and a part of me really loves things that are OTT.

Knowing how much I like solitude, I regret now that I didn't plan any solitude into our time together. By the end of the week (the Friday before the conference started), I felt like I was going nuts. I remember finally being alone on the Friday evening and feeling a huge amount of relief. It was simply wonderful to not have to be concerned about anybody else, what they wanted to do, or their needs. We're not talking twenty years here. This was after only one week!

This experience made me realise that I would find the constant, relentless demands on my time by a child or children completely intolerable.

Whilst I can appreciate that children can be a joy, I think I can tap into that joy from spending time with my nephew and niece. I like children and find them wonderful - for short spans of time. I would now like to extol the virtues of being an aunty: it's like having all the advantages of being a grandparent, without having to go through the parent bit first.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Fran

[Victor Pross]

I'm my own child...that's enough.

[Judith]

I spent the week before the TOC conference touring Santa Barbara, LA, Las Vegas and Zion with a friend. We had a great time together and I loved Las Vegas the most - it's just soooooo ostentatious and a part of me really loves things that are OTT.

Knowing how much I like solitude, I regret now that I didn't plan any solitude into our time together. By the end of the week (the Friday before the conference started), I felt like I was going nuts. I remember finally being alone on the Friday evening and feeling a huge amount of relief. It was simply wonderful to not have to be concerned about anybody else, what they wanted to do, or their needs. We're not talking twenty years here. This was after only one week!

I'm surprised that you liked Vegas, considering your need for solitude! I visited Vegas for the first time ever last month, and absolutely hated it. I remember thinking, "If there's a hell, it's just like Las Vegas." Before I went, I had a mental roster of all the fancy hotels I wanted to see. When I actually got there, I saw -- two: the one in which my conference was being held and the one across the street. One doesn't just walk across the street in Vegas; one has to walk miles through casinos and around obstacles and over bridges and through tunnels of shops and past endless rows of slots, all the while being bombarded with flashing lights, and pounding rock music, and the sound of slot machines, and cigarette smoke, and crowds of people -- it's a freaking nightmare. I wanted to sit down and cry and be airlifted out of there, but no -- I had to fight my way all the way back to my car, which was in the parking garage of my original hotel. My last day there I actually wore shooter's hearing protectors and kept my eyes down on the way from the parking garage, through the casino (through which one must pass to go ANYWHERE ELSE in the hotel) to my conference to avoid sensory overload. I got strange looks, but at least I had a lesser headache. Couldn't do anything about the cigarette smoke, though. I gave up on seeing the other hotels and spent the rest of my free time out in the desert, which was beautiful.

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I remember finally being alone on the Friday evening and feeling a huge amount of relief. It was simply wonderful to not have to be concerned about anybody else, what they wanted to do, or their needs. We're not talking twenty years here. This was after only one week!

Fran,

This reminds me of a Brazilian quote: "Children are great, but they last too long."

Michael

[Fran]

Michael, that is a great quote!

There's something else about pregnancy that I want to add. Whilst I understand the biological reasons for it, does any other woman find it somewhat disturbing that a part of her body will go against her will and become pregnant? A condition that can have serious physical, mental and immunological implications; not to mention one that can kill her. I don't like having parts of my body working against me rather than for me.

Yeah, I know it's all about passing on genes, and my statement here could be viewed as fighting reality, etc., but there's something worker-beeish about it - giving up one's life for the good of the hive, or in this case, the good of one's genes.

As has already been mentioned - the person who invented contraception should be made a saint. I shall add him to my list of heroes - the guy who invented the automatic washing machine also being one of them.