The Left gets religion too

[Mike Renzulli]

I guess I will post this as kind of a follow up to the Rise of the Global South post and let you all chew on it.

This is also an FYI too as I also wanted to put this out so it would appear on the internet. As it turns out, not only are right-wing or culturally conservative religions supporting political groups (like the Christian Coalition) to push their agendas in government forcing their view of morality on others, the left or liberal religions are doing the same thing.

Here in Arizona, there is a politically active group called Valley Interfaith Network. This group has been active in a number of issues mainly via the state legislature. However, they have ties to many other organizations that are associated with the Democratic Party, like the teachers unions. Also, it just so happens that many of the groups associated with VIN are also linked to the Arizona Ecumenical Council which is affiliated with the National Council of Churches. If you look at VIN's website, you can see many similarities in activities comparing VIN with the Christian Coalition.

When I and other Libertarians joined a coalition group to stop Proposition 200 from passing in this state in 2004, members of VIN were in attendance. I distinctly remember one of them talking about how they were going to talk to rectors of some protestant churches they knew and I believe they also stated they recruited members from VIN affiliated churches as well.

While many of you may be yawning or saying "so what?" to this news, I think it speaks volumes of the influence of religion now-a-days. And with all of the broo-ha-ha the media makes about religious conservatives, they tend to turn a blind eye to religious liberal organizations like this.

Also, this goes to show how organized religions in general will work in unison with like-minded politicians which lead to manipulation and control of the populace.

A liberal religious group could be coming to a parish near you or it may already have arrived. As it turns out, a national group known as the North American Interfaith Network is up and running which has affiliates in many states around the country.

Fortunately, Objectivists can be the counterbalance to movements like this just like they can be with churches from the Global South. Our emphasis on reason and rejection of mysticism can stem this tide that is occuring.

I have made it a point to make my Objectivist group as public as possible. Holding meeting in places easily accessible to people and, if you Objectivist group does not do this, I would suggest that you start.

I would like to think that it was Rand's writings and philosophy that helped stem the tide of collectivism in this country. She was the right person at the right time. Objectivists can are in the right place at the right time to stem this tide of mystical collectivism. Now is an excellent time to start.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Mike Renzulli

[BaalChatzaf]

Fortunately, Objectivists can be the counterbalance to movements like this just like they can be with churches from the Global South. Our emphasis on reason and rejection of mysticism can stem this tide that is occuring.

Do you really think so? I read a poll recently that shows fifty three percent of the American public believes in Angels and ghosts. What do you propose to do about that?

We have a school system that is designed to destroy the ability to think critically about anything. What do you propose to do about that?

Short of a total breakdown of the nation, nothing major is going to change.

Even in -Atlas Shrugged-, the country had to grind to a halt and break down before there was even a chance of change. How much harder will it be in the Real World, where there is no sign whatsoever of grinding to a halt? Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited November 4, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[Mike Renzulli]

I understand that but all of what you are seeing can be reversed. With enough time and effort, all of what you are seeing now can be changed. I think Objectivists can lead the charge to do so.

Fortunately, Objectivists can be the counterbalance to movements like this just like they can be with churches from the Global South. Our emphasis on reason and rejection of mysticism can stem this tide that is occuring.

Do you really think so? I read a poll recently that shows fifty three percent of the American public believes in Angels and ghosts. What do you propose to do about that?

We have a school system that is designed to destroy the ability to think critically about anything. What do you propose to do about that?

Short of a total breakdown of the nation, nothing major is going to change.

Even in -Atlas Shrugged-, the country had to grind to a halt and break down before there was even a chance of change. How much harder will it be in the Real World, where there is no sign whatsoever of grinding to a halt? Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

I understand that but all of what you are seeing can be reversed. With enough time and effort, all of what you are seeing now can be changed. I think Objectivists can lead the charge to do so.

Objectivists and like minded people should concentrate on saving themselves and their children. They are far more likely to succeed in that endeavor.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

Ed Hudgins in his comments at the Atlas 50th mentioned the best sellers about atheism.

A poll that was featured on one of the cable networks suggested that not many individuals are actually calling themselves atheists. Churches are still crowded.

I think one must save oneself and one's family and then think about political action.

[galtgulch]

I understand that but all of what you are seeing can be reversed. With enough time and effort, all of what you are seeing now can be changed. I think Objectivists can lead the charge to do so.

Objectivists and like minded people should concentrate on saving themselves and their children. They are far more likely to succeed in that endeavor.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You bring a humorous anecdote to mind. Forgive me if I read it here too long ago to recall.

A Rabbi, a Lawyer and a Priest are at sea with a number of boys. The ship sinks out from under them and they take refuge on a raft which is also about to go under. The Rabbi says, "We must do what we can to save the boys!"

The Lawyer (Its a lawyer joke) says, "F..k the kids!" And the Priest responds, "Is there enough time?"

My wife pleads with me not to tell the joke when we meet friends for a social evening and there are new people present. So far it has proved to be a guaranteed laugh.

To get back to the issue at hand. We must keep in mind that never before in the long history of Mankind has there been an explicit rational, comprehensive, integrated view of existence until Ayn Rand formulated and dramatized Objectivism. We have a tool therefore which has not been heard. Even though the mystics do their damnedest, pun intended, to indoctrinate their children, they will be exposed to the ideas which we advocate.

In my experience an approach which has worked was not to spell out the tenets of Objectivism first. Rather it was more effective to make the moral, epistemological and metaphysical premises of whichever religion explicit to begin with. Altruism stated euphemistically may sound harmless, but drawn to its logical conclusion is horrible.

My point is that there is always a younger generation coming up who will hear the voice of reason for a change and many will be able to challenge the ideas of their religious upbringing. That is the hope.

galt

Edited November 5, 2007 by galtgulch

[Mike Renzulli]

Point well taken with a little chuckle thrown in.

You are right that never before has, as you say, an explicit, rational, integrated and comprehensive view of existence been brought about until Rand formulated and dramatized Objectivism.

I agree it is the younger generation that will hear the voice of reason for a change, challenging not only their religious upbringings (like I did) but also the ancien regime seen today. However and in my view, the only way the young will hear it is for it to be communicated.

Mediums like the internet can be effective. However, the ability to meet with and talk to individuals one-on-one is crucial to winning over people. This is the reason why religion is so successful because it is accessible and there are a wide variety of them for people to pick and choose from along with many who have core values and principles that give people a point of focus to live their lives.

I believe one of the things Austrian economists point out as being the wellspring of human progress is dissatisfaction on the part of individuals. Once people are dissatisfied with the current state of things, new ideas and people who subscribe to them will be sought.

In my view, making your Objectivist salon more accessible to the public via advertising and even starting one is crucial to making this change happen alot faster.

You bring a humorous anecdote to mind. Forgive me if I read it here too long ago to recall.

A Rabbi, a Lawyer and a Priest are at sea with a number of boys. The ship sinks out from under them and they take refuge on a raft which is also about to go under. The Rabbi says, "We must do what we can to save the boys!"

The Lawyer (Its a lawyer joke) says, "F..k the kids!" And the Priest responds, "Is there time?"

My wife pleads with me not to tell the joke when we meet friends for a social evening and there are new people present. So far it has proved to be a guaranteed laugh.

To get back to the issue at hand. We must keep in mind that never before in the long history of Mankind has there been an explicit rational, integrated, comprehensive view of existence until Ayn Rand formulated and dramatized Objectivism. We have a tool therefore which has not been heard. Even though the mystics do their damnedest, pun intended, to indoctrinate their children, they will be exposed to the ideas which we advocate.

In my experience an approach which has worked was not to spell out the tenets of Objectivism first. Rather it was more effective to make the moral, epistemological and metaphysical premises of whichever religion explicit to begin with. Altruism stated euphemistically may sound harmless, but drawn to its logical conclusion is horrible.

My point is that there is always a younger generation coming up who will hear the voice of reason for a change and many will be able to challenge the ideas of their religious upbringing. That is the hope.

galt

[Selene]

Fortunately, Objectivists can be the counterbalance to movements like this just like they can be with churches from the Global South. Our emphasis on reason and rejection of mysticism can stem this tide that is occuring.

Do you really think so? I read a poll recently that shows fifty three percent of the American public believes in Angels and ghosts. What do you propose to do about that?

We have a school system that is designed to destroy the ability to think critically about anything. What do you propose to do about that?

Short of a total breakdown of the nation, nothing major is going to change.

Even in -Atlas Shrugged-, the country had to grind to a halt and break down before there was even a chance of change. How much harder will it be in the Real World, where there is no sign whatsoever of grinding to a halt? Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Polls are not facts from which you can argue from. Try again.

[BaalChatzaf]

Polls are not facts from which you can argue from. Try again.

It is a fact that an unbiased poll showed 53 percent of Americans believe in Angels and ghosts.

Do you deny that our elementary school system is shit? We have a third world school system in a first world country. Even the math team from Bangledesh can beat the American team.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

Polls are not facts from which you can argue from. Try again.

It is a fact that an unbiased poll showed 53 percent of Americans believe in Angels and ghosts.

Do you deny that our elementary school system is shit? We have a third world school system in a first world country. Even the math team from Bangledesh can beat the American team.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Polls are not facts from which you can argue from. Try again.

It is a fact that an unbiased poll showed 53 percent of Americans believe in Angels and ghosts.

Do you deny that our elementary school system is shit? We have a third world school system in a first world country. Even the math team from Bangledesh can beat the American team.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Have you ever conducted a poll? I have created them and had my personel conduct them. Just a few questions for you. 1) did you find out who paid for the "unbiased" poll; 2) do you know what statistical analysis was used to analyze the data; 3) do you know the exact numbers of the polls samples and how they were selected; and 4) to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a poll which did not have a bias. An honest pollster will tell you that there are assumptions that the poll taker makes in order to conduct the process.

[BaalChatzaf]

[quote name='Selene' post='40011' date='Nov 5

Have you ever conducted a poll? I have created them and had my personel conduct them. Just a few questions for you. 1) did you find out who paid for the "unbiased" poll; 2) do you know what statistical analysis was used to analyze the data; 3) do you know the exact numbers of the polls samples and how they were selected; and 4) to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a poll which did not have a bias. An honest pollster will tell you that there are assumptions that the poll taker makes in order to conduct the process.

O.K. Forget about Angels and ghosts and just consider the level of intellectual unsophistication in the country. We have shitty elementary schools. The population, by and large, does not give one good god damn about philosophical issues. Abstractions make most people's eyes glaze over. They are more turned on by Reality T.V. and sporting events shown on television. Our population is overweight, under exercised and ill educated. But the system keeps on going and turning out goodies (thanks to the efforts of a relative few). These few show no signs of quitting. Our technical elite is well paid and getting richer. Our system is not breaking down, at least not yet. We are fat dumb and happy. And most important of all, Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Not only that, the Welfare and Redistribution System is growing without producing an economic breakdown.

If a John Galt tried to get people to quit, they would simply ignore him.

So how does Objectivism make any headway? There are probably not 100,000 people in the country who identify themselves as Objectivists. Pray do tell us how it can possibly succeed in the next 100 years.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Mike Renzulli]

This altogether is of much frustration among Objectivists and libertarians too. With all of the bad things happening, the end result could be (for lack of a better term) a blessing down the line. I think with things going the way they are, that the US is going to experience a return to the kind of inflation or stagnation seen since the 1970s. Fortunately, things can be reversed.

For example, although I do not like Ronald Reagan, but when he got elected, he was able to reverse many of the things that contributed to the malaise at the time, like economic controls and taxes. I believe once he took over the White House, his appointees to federal agencies did little to nothing to enforce or create new federal regulations. I believe that was one of the contentions Democrats had with Clarence Thomas when he was being appointed to the Supreme Court. Thomas was Reagan's director of the EEOC for a time. The same in Britain with Margaret Thatcher with her ideas considered radical at the time of deregulation, privatization and tax reductions.

As Objectivists, we have to realize that while we ascribe to a philosophy and advocate a type of utopian view of the world, it may not turn out the way we expect at first. However, with enough time and effort I believe that the view of society we envision can become a reality. It will take time and effort but it can be done. Its just a matter of keeping the ideas out there for people to subscribe to.

If our own American Revolution is any indication, all it takes is a small, determined, radical minority to set fire in people's minds.

[quote name='Selene' post='40011' date='Nov 5

O.K. Forget about Angels and ghosts and just consider the level of intellectual unsophistication in the country. We have shitty elementary schools. The population, by and large, does not give one good god damn about philosophical issues. Abstractions make most people's eyes glaze over. They are more turned on by Reality T.V. and sporting events shown on television. Our population is overweight, under exercised and ill educated. But the system keeps on going and turning out goodies (thanks to the efforts of a relative few). These few show no signs of quitting. Our technical elite is well paid and getting richer. Our system is not breaking down, at least not yet. We are fat dumb and happy. And most important of all, Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Not only that, the Welfare and Redistribution System is growing without producing an economic breakdown.

If a John Galt tried to get people to quit, they would simply ignore him.

So how does Objectivism make any headway? There are probably not 100,000 people in the country who identify themselves as Objectivists. Pray do tell us how it can possibly succeed in the next 100 years.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

If our own American Revolution is any indication, all it takes is a small, determined, radical minority to set fire in people's minds.

John Adams pointed out that one third of the adult population was in favor of independence, one third favored staying with England and one third took a wait-see attitude.

The Revolution succeeded because of French aid. The Principles of the Few were not sufficient for the success of the Revolution. And the Revolution produced a failed government under the Articles of Confederation.

The Constitution of 1787 also failed and was "saved" only by a Civil war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed over a million and a half (this in a country whose total population was about thirty million).

Somehow the Canadians have produced a country with about the same degree of liberty as ours, and without a Revolution and a Civil War. The Canadians also did not have to slaughter the aboriginal population either.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

Bob; I have seen that the statement by John Adams about one third is a misquotation. I don't think the Tories where able to raise a huge number of supporters but I don't have figures.

[Mike Renzulli]

I could take you to task for many of the historical points you bring up but will not since it will distract from the overall discussion. What it comes down to is this: we have a philosophy that empowers people to think for themselves and act morally towards others. There is no better philosophy out there that I know of that is better than Objectivism.

Now, it order to get to point B you have to start from point A. In other words, in order to achieve the goal you want, you have to work to get it. It takes time and effort but it can be done. Our enemies, the Socialists, are a good example of an ideologically driven movement that has achieved their aims.

Literally overnight FDR enacted almost every plank in the Socialist Party's platform of 1932.

With time and effort we can reverse these policies. However, from my vantage point, it seems like you whine, moan and argue here more than try to take time to try to make an Objectivist society or reverse the trend you point out a reality.

If history is any guide, people don't just follow leaders, they follow people with convictions.

Think about it.

If our own American Revolution is any indication, all it takes is a small, determined, radical minority to set fire in people's minds.

John Adams pointed out that one third of the adult population was in favor of independence, one third favored staying with England and one third took a wait-see attitude.

The Revolution succeeded because of French aid. The Principles of the Few were not sufficient for the success of the Revolution. And the Revolution produced a failed government under the Articles of Confederation.

The Constitution of 1787 also failed and was "saved" only by a Civil war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed over a million and a half (this in a country whose total population was about thirty million).

Somehow the Canadians have produced a country with about the same degree of liberty as ours, and without a Revolution and a Civil War. The Canadians also did not have to slaughter the aboriginal population either.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

[quote name='Selene' post='40011' date='Nov 5

Have you ever conducted a poll? I have created them and had my personel conduct them. Just a few questions for you. 1) did you find out who paid for the "unbiased" poll; 2) do you know what statistical analysis was used to analyze the data; 3) do you know the exact numbers of the polls samples and how they were selected; and 4) to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a poll which did not have a bias. An honest pollster will tell you that there are assumptions that the poll taker makes in order to conduct the process.

O.K. Forget about Angels and ghosts and just consider the level of intellectual unsophistication in the country. We have shitty elementary schools. The population, by and large, does not give one good god damn about philosophical issues. Abstractions make most people's eyes glaze over. They are more turned on by Reality T.V. and sporting events shown on television. Our population is overweight, under exercised and ill educated. But the system keeps on going and turning out goodies (thanks to the efforts of a relative few). These few show no signs of quitting. Our technical elite is well paid and getting richer. Our system is not breaking down, at least not yet. We are fat dumb and happy. And most important of all, Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Not only that, the Welfare and Redistribution System is growing without producing an economic breakdown.

If a John Galt tried to get people to quit, they would simply ignore him.

So how does Objectivism make any headway? There are probably not 100,000 people in the country who identify themselves as Objectivists. Pray do tell us how it can possibly succeed in the next 100 years.

Ba'al Chatzaf

So, Bob, this is the tribe you would push a button and kill a billion people for?

--Brant

Edited November 11, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[BaalChatzaf]

So, Bob, this is the tribe you would push a button and kill a billion people for?

--Brant

The FDH(*) tribe is not out to get my pale Jewish ass. So I will protect them in order to protect me.

Got it?

Ba'al Chatzaf

* Fat, Dump, Happy without any theistic religious passion. Football is their religion. That and Reality Television.

[mvir9]

Fortunately, Objectivists can be the counterbalance to movements like this just like they can be with churches from the Global South. Our emphasis on reason and rejection of mysticism can stem this tide that is occuring.

Do you really think so? I read a poll recently that shows fifty three percent of the American public believes in Angels and ghosts. What do you propose to do about that?

We have a school system that is designed to destroy the ability to think critically about anything. What do you propose to do about that?

Short of a total breakdown of the nation, nothing major is going to change.

Even in -Atlas Shrugged-, the country had to grind to a halt and break down before there was even a chance of change. How much harder will it be in the Real World, where there is no sign whatsoever of grinding to a halt? Atlas is NOT shrugging.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I largely agree with you, Ba'al.

It is often mind-boggling to me how prolific religiosity is . . .! Why is it a necessity to Republican and Democratic constituents that their candidates attend church? It is telling that all of the presidents since I have been on this earth have made marketing opportunities of attending church. It is almost a prerequisite . . . like kissing the baby in the crowd.

As well, I currently live in a small, farming community in northern Illinois. Whether it is secular or religious, collectivism is the dominant town theme. Disagree and burn in hell; or disagree and hate the earth (there are many environmentalists here). As a strong individualist and atheist, I am not very well liked here

My children attend public school . . . and they are drowning in collectivist ideals (both religious -- yes, religious -- and secular). For example, in one of my daughter's science classes, they had the students read some first wave environmentalist's manifesto (which included a resounding denunciation of mankind and their sins against the earth). This work was taken as a scientific fact. Regretfully, I don't recall the man's name (I'll look for the book and post later if I find it), but I do recall that that he adored Jack Kerouac (this should give you a hint about the tone of his work). I read the work with my daughter, then I gave her several essays to read that told the other side of the story. I simply told her that she needed to get all of the facts, then to make up her own mind.

In this, I completely agree with the folks who say focus on yourself and your children. Collectivism is prolific enough that I find myself combating it in my own home on an almost daily basis. It is very tough to explain to a 13 year old and an 11 year old how an entire town can be wrong . . .

Regarding Atlas shrugging, I thought some of you would find this article about the talent exodus on Wall Street interesting:

Talent Exodus

Edited November 11, 2007 by Virginia Murr

[BaalChatzaf]

Regarding Atlas shrugging, I thought some of you would find this article about the talent exodus on Wall Street interesting:

Talent Exodus

The money manipulators do not produce a damned thing. I will worry when the engineers and scientists start to disappear. I will even worry when the freight dispatchers start to disappear or the grocery store managers and crew. They do -real- things. The money fiddlers do jack squat.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Regarding Atlas shrugging, I thought some of you would find this article about the talent exodus on Wall Street interesting:

Talent Exodus

The money manipulators do not produce a damned thing. I will worry when the engineers and scientists start to disappear. I will even worry when the freight dispatchers start to disappear or the grocery store managers and crew. They do -real- things. The money fiddlers do jack squat.

Ba'al Chatzaf

They help destroy wealth. Wall Street is essentially a casino where the house doesn't have to win but will not lose unless there is a gross miscalculation such as with CDOs with phoney AAA stamps of approval and SIVs resulting in a cascade of loses at brokerages, investment houses and banks threatening the entire economy with deflation and inflation simultaneously. The threat is simultaneous but they can't happen at the same time, of course. The Fed is flooding the system with cheap money and the dollar gets weaker and weaker while collapsing credit sets us up for a deflationary snapback and recession. The irony is that the dollar on its way to destruction might suddenly get stronger as a temporary consequence of all this nonsense. Prices of goods and services don't have to go down in this situation and probably won't, but price inflation and deflation is not real inflation and deflation just common corollaries. You can even have some prices go up in a deflationary environment.

Here is what happens generally: The Federal government provides money to education and medical services and those prices go up to sop up that money. It provides Wall Street with money through the Federal Reserve and the Street sops up that liquidity with various instruments. It is not Wall Street that is our enemy, it is our own government feasting on us as it always has in various ways. Today we don't even know the value of oil, gold and real estate; all we have are crazy prices. Buy an ounce of gold today for $850. Tomorrow it might get you $550. In a decade it might get you a million. Or a good suit of clothes in all three cases.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

Here is what happens generally: The Federal government provides money to education and medical services and those prices go up to sop up that money. It provides Wall Street with money through the Federal Reserve and the Street sops up that liquidity with various instruments. It is not Wall Street that is our enemy, it is our own government feasting on us as it always has in various ways. Today we don't even know the value of oil, gold and real estate; all we have are crazy prices. Buy an ounce of gold today for $850. Tomorrow it might get you $550. In a decade it might get you a million. Or a good suit of clothes in all three cases.

--Brant

Not too far into the future: Ma! Can I have fifty dollars for an ice cream cone?

Ba'al Chatzaf