Ron Paul on Fear

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

Maybe I misread, but after being called naive, not understanding and refusing to acknowledge the problem, etc., several times, I simply took you at your word. Let's look.

I never endorsed Bob's (stupid, revolting) "nuke 'em all approach" and didn't edit out any such endorsement.

You are right about not editing it out. I found it.

Bob is only goofy on the solution, not the problem, Michael, which you don't recognize, understand or acknowledge.

I simply take things to their logical consequences. I don't consider "collateral damage" that cannot be avoided to be a matter of only "goofy." I have seen death and so have you. If you think nuke 'em all is only "goofy," then so is the resulting collateral damage. The problem Bob states time and time again is that we have to kill all of our enemies as the only means of being able to survive. I don't call his "final solution" goofy while endorsing his "final problem."

Let me be very clear. "All Muslims," including the Iranian students protesting, are not the problem. According to Bob's collectivist approach, they are, or at best, they are unworthy of consideration. They are simply without value to him except as a nuisance. Apparently you happen to "recognize, understand and acknowledge" the problem in Bob's manner of thinking and think that bombing them is only a matter of being "goofy."

I identify the problem a hell of a lot differently and not from evasion, as you claim.

I never said it was my position that "good and evil are nothing but opinions." That's Bob's position which I was criticizing.

Did I misread the following? If I did, could you please tell me the meaning? I only have your written words to go on, and they do seem to contradict everything else you stand for.

"Evil" is an "opinion." So is "good."

We agree about the following as you state it below.

Force (and power) does rule the world. Law is used to control and direct that force in a free society among both private and public parties, but force backstops law. Philosophy helps create, establish and maintain that law.

We do not agree about your other oversimplification (which "nuke ''em all" resolves nicely):

Israel can take care of itself by nuking Iran--first. Only the US has the means if not the will to do things differently.

After they seized the Embassy the US should have kicked their ass and set things right.

Force rules the world. Our force or their force, take your pick.

I maintain that there is a vast difference between the founding of the USA and the "force" that governed mankind up to that point. In the present example, you are equating the USA on same level as Iran, obliterating the whole notion of rights, and that grates against my convictions. You complained earlier in that same post of "moral equivalence." Force rules which side wins a war. Force does not "rule the world." We have a whole lot of other values "ruling" the USA other than force. In fact, some of those values are present and growing in Iran.

You grossly attacked me. Instead of an apology you reloaded and fired again. Then you lecture me about something else.

I am not attacking you. But since you did state several times that I am refusing to think about the problem (evade) and that I am naive, I decided to show you where some of my notions of your positions are coming from.

As to the "lecture," here is what you said.

I reject the military-intellectual dichotomy for it leaves the military civilian leaderless and directionless. It also leaves you with the advantage of an implicit argument from (intellectual) authority. In reality, I think you've got your head too up in the clouds...

So I took my head out of the clouds and said:

I do want to clarify something. You rejected a military-intellectual dichotomy, imputing to this a meaning I did not provide or insinuate. Obviously, the military needs morality and intellectuals should own guns for self-defense. These are not mutually exclusive fields. Taking my words to mean that I was proposing a mindless military is so far out, I am at a loss for words.

To recap, our disagreements are not over considering the matter from different angles. They are due to me refusing to think about or acknowledge the issues, the fact that I am naive, and that I have my head in the clouds. Most recently, I read too fast for proper comprehension. Then you talk of me "attacking" you. Do you have any more personal criticisms of me before continuing? Let's get them all out of the way.

I have not discussed some of this before because cleaning up the plagiarism mess is consuming all my time.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Obviously I'll now have to review everything we we are talking about before substantially continuing. However, notice my use of quotation marks around "evil," "opinion" and "good." I was referring to someone else's use of those words.

I'm glad you "found it." Where did you find it? If I said something I shouldn't have I'll own up to it.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

On looking over that quote about good and evil, I see what you mean. You were discussing Bob's meanings of good and evil. That is why it created dissonance inside me in relation to your normal views. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

On how to locate quoted posts, if you look at the quote header, there is a little pink arrow. For example here is a header from my last post:

QUOTE(Brant Gaede @ Aug 4 2007, 12:27 AM)

If you look at my last post at the place where this came from, there is a little pink arrow in a square box to the right of the above text. Click on it and it will take you to the post where the quote came from.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Michael,

Thanks for how to find quotes, but my quote doesn't have anything to do with my advocating Bob's solution.

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

Sorry to interrupt. Two months ago, in a related thread, Brant asked me what did I propose? The question has been on my mind a long time. Yesterday I said I wanted to consider Brant's emphasis on what the US should do now, regardless of how we got saddled with the Middle East, destroying and occupying Iraq, patrolling the Gulf, threatening to attack Iran, rearming the Saudis and Emirates, etc.

I think it has to stop, and the fastest way to stop it would be for someone in the Pentagon to step forward with a smoking gun (emails, recordings, whatever) to impeach Cheney (at a minimum).

from April 2003 humanities.philosophy.objectivism

> WOLF DEVOON:

> Re Iraq, the United States is in very, very deep moral trouble.

> Allegations of WMD were lies...

> CHARLES NOVINS:

> Even if this very, very fringe, looney allegation were true, I don't see the

> slightest "moral" problem with it.

Don't you get it? You were LIED to repeatedly.

"Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one

incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has

weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and

occupation"

http://argument.independent.co.uk/...

Wolf DeVoon

------------------------------------------

I keep asking myself why people keep sticking their necks out like this, as

if they don't give a damn if it gets chopped off as soon as the WMD are

found. Unless they are absolutely convinced there are no WMD in Iraq which

would be an absolutely incredible conviction.

Fred Weiss

------------------------------------------

> JIM AUSTIN: Since there is no world government that protects any rights,

> Hussein has no rights whatever that the U.S. is obliged to respect.

> WOLF DEVOON: Use your head, dumbbell. Substitute any other political

> figure (Bush, Sharon) in that proposition and see if you still want to defend

> unilateral 'might makes right.'

It is not so much a matter of defending M.M.R. as a principle as it is in

recognizing that is the way the world works.

Bob Kolker

'Might makes right' corrodes the honor and moral authority of the United States. Lying to the Security Council and the American people destroyed what little geopolitical capital we once had. Somebody has to step forward and bust the Office of Special Plans and the Cheney oil cartel.

"Cuffy Meigs stole it and sold it."

"Can you prove it?" he snapped defensively.

"Have your friends left any means, methods, rules or agencies of proof?"

At a minimum, we need to make damn sure there's a 2008 general election.

No excuses of national emergency, regardless of chaos.

W.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Wolf DeVoon

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

'Might makes right' corrodes the honor and moral authority of the United States.

Wolf,

Amen.

I wonder in these discussions why people think a billion and a half people is something that a single solution like a bomb can resolve. We obviously need to teach alongside military activity.

How on earth are we going to teach a morality that we abdicate to Muslims? Force it down their throats with a gun and/or blow them up?

Wouldn't it be dandy if we could teach and/or get rid of a billion and a half people like that? Somehow, I don't see gross hypocrisy with a big stick convincing many of them.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

How on earth are we going to teach a morality that we abdicate to Muslims? Force it down their throats with a gun and/or blow them up?

First things first. First we secure our survival. Then we worry about ethics and morality. If we don't survive than any ethical discussion is nugatory and moot.

I thought you Objectivist Folk made an exception for Emergencies. Well, brothers, we have an Emergency. We are at war with Islam, if not de jure then de facto. It is what the Germans call a -kultur kampf-. A cultural war, a battle of value systems. Either we win it or we are history.

Since out survival is necessary to our existence, any means to that end is permissible. Whatever it takes...

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Once again, I ask, what are you doing to "secure our survival" since you think ethics and morality are without value in this context.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob,

Once again, I ask, what are you doing to "secure our survival" since you think ethics and morality are without value in this context.

Michael

Ethics and morality are for dealing with "nice", "decent" people. We do not do ethics with our Destroyers. We Destroy our Destroyers. If he is coming to kill you, rise up early and slay him first.

I simply do not comprehend why you have difficulty with something so basic, so elemental and so straightforward. Self-defense comes first, before any fancy notions of how to live with other people. With reasonable folk we can be reasonable. With people out to get us, we have to get them first. Any means to the end of our defense is o.k.. Whatever it takes .....

I am truly at my wits end in trying to convince you that we are in the midst of a War and we are NOT winning it. Muslims have been blowing up our planes and abusing our people since the sixties of the last century. UBL has decided to bring the war right to our doorstep. The barbarians at not AT the gates. They are already INSIDE the gates. There is only one way of dealing with the Amalekites. Blot their name out.

If you cannot perceive the danger, then wait until it becomes obvious. The next big Muslim attack on the Homeland should wake you up. Or perhaps even then you will convince yourself that all we have to do is win hearts and minds by being reasonable.

My grandmother used to tell me, if someone is pissing on your head, don't fool yourself into thinking that it is raining. That was good advice from the Old Lady.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

So, are you destroying our destroyers?

Seems to me like you are doing nothing but talking ethics and morality on Internet forums.

Michael

[Aggrad02]

Bob,

Once again, I ask, what are you doing to "secure our survival" since you think ethics and morality are without value in this context.

Michael

Ethics and morality are for dealing with "nice", "decent" people. We do not do ethics with our Destroyers. We Destroy our Destroyers. If he is coming to kill you, rise up early and slay him first.

I simply do not comprehend why you have difficulty with something so basic, so elemental and so straightforward. Self-defense comes first, before any fancy notions of how to live with other people. With reasonable folk we can be reasonable. With people out to get us, we have to get them first. Any means to the end of our defense is o.k.. Whatever it takes .....

I am truly at my wits end in trying to convince you that we are in the midst of a War and we are NOT winning it. Muslims have been blowing up our planes and abusing our people since the sixties of the last century. UBL has decided to bring the war right to our doorstep. The barbarians at not AT the gates. They are already INSIDE the gates. There is only one way of dealing with the Amalekites. Blot their name out.

If you cannot perceive the danger, then wait until it becomes obvious. The next big Muslim attack on the Homeland should wake you up. Or perhaps even then you will convince yourself that all we have to do is win hearts and minds by being reasonable.

My grandmother used to tell me, if someone is pissing on your head, don't fool yourself into thinking that it is raining. That was good advice from the Old Lady.

Ba'al Chatzaf

All of this would be fine and dandy except for the fact that it totally ignores the history of the conflict. You say they have been attacking us since the sixties, but it was in the 50's that we started attacking them.

--Dustan

[Wolf DeVoon]

I am truly at my wits end

Me too.

[Aggrad02]

"Cuffy Meigs stole it and sold it."

"Can you prove it?" he snapped defensively.

"Have your friends left any means, methods, rules or agencies of proof?"

At a minimum, we need to make damn sure there's a 2008 general election.

No excuses of national emergency, regardless of chaos.

W.

How the Election Can be Rigged

--Dustan

[Aggrad02]

This is interesting. I am not endorsing it, but it is interesting to consider in this debate.

Ahmadinejad's Letter to the American Citizens

(CNN) -- In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

O, Almighty God, bestow upon humanity the perfect human being promised to all by You, and make us among his followers.

Noble Americans,

Were we not faced with the activities of the US administration in this part of the world and the negative ramifications of those activities on the daily lives of our peoples, coupled with the many wars and calamities caused by the US administration as well as the tragic consequences of US interference in other countries;

Were the American people not God-fearing, truth-loving, and justice-seeking, while the US administration actively conceals the truth and impedes any objective portrayal of current realities;

And if we did not share a common responsibility to promote and protect freedom and human dignity and integrity;

Then, there would have been little urgency to have a dialogue with you.

While Divine providence has placed Iran and the United States geographically far apart, we should be cognizant that human values and our common human spirit, which proclaim the dignity and exalted worth of all human beings, have brought our two great nations of Iran and the United States closer together.

Both our nations are God-fearing, truth-loving and justice-seeking, and both seek dignity, respect and perfection.

Both greatly value and readily embrace the promotion of human ideals such as compassion, empathy, respect for the rights of human beings, securing justice and equity, and defending the innocent and the weak against oppressors and bullies.

We are all inclined towards the good, and towards extending a helping hand to one another, particularly to those in need.

We all deplore injustice, the trampling of peoples' rights and the intimidation and humiliation of human beings.

We all detest darkness, deceit, lies and distortion, and seek and admire salvation, enlightenment, sincerity and honesty.

The pure human essence of the two great nations of Iran and the United States testify to the veracity of these statements.

Noble Americans,

Our nation has always extended its hand of friendship to all other nations of the world.

Hundreds of thousands of my Iranian compatriots are living amongst you in friendship and peace, and are contributing positively to your society. Our people have been in contact with you over the past many years and have maintained these contacts despite the unnecessary restrictions of US authorities.

As mentioned, we have common concerns, face similar challenges, and are pained by the sufferings and afflictions in the world.

We, like you, are aggrieved by the ever-worsening pain and misery of the Palestinian people. Persistent aggressions by the Zionists are making life more and more difficult for the rightful owners of the land of Palestine. In broad day-light, in front of cameras and before the eyes of the world, they are bombarding innocent defenseless civilians, bulldozing houses, firing machine guns at students in the streets and alleys, and subjecting their families to endless grief.

No day goes by without a new crime.

Palestinian mothers, just like Iranian and American mothers, love their children, and are painfully bereaved by the imprisonment, wounding and murder of their children. What mother wouldn't?

For 60 years, the Zionist regime has driven millions of the inhabitants of Palestine out of their homes. Many of these refugees have died in the Diaspora and in refugee camps. Their children have spent their youth in these camps and are aging while still in the hope of returning to homeland.

You know well that the US administration has persistently provided blind and blanket support to the Zionist regime, has emboldened it to continue its crimes, and has prevented the UN Security Council from condemning it.

Who can deny such broken promises and grave injustices towards humanity by the US administration?

Governments are there to serve their own people. No people wants to side with or support any oppressors. But regrettably, the US administration disregards even its own public opinion and remains in the forefront of supporting the trampling of the rights of the Palestinian people.

Let's take a look at Iraq. Since the commencement of the US military presence in Iraq, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, maimed or displaced. Terrorism in Iraq has grown exponentially. With the presence of the US military in Iraq, nothing has been done to rebuild the ruins, to restore the infrastructure or to alleviate poverty. The US Government used the pretext of the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but later it became clear that that was just a lie and a deception.

Although Saddam was overthrown and people are happy about his departure, the pain and suffering of the Iraqi people has persisted and has even been aggravated.

In Iraq, about one hundred and fifty thousand American soldiers, separated from their families and loved ones, are operating under the command of the current US administration. A substantial number of them have been killed or wounded and their presence in Iraq has tarnished the image of the American people and government.

Their mothers and relatives have, on numerous occasions, displayed their discontent with the presence of their sons and daughters in a land thousands of miles away from US shores. American soldiers often wonder why they have been sent to Iraq.

I consider it extremely unlikely that you, the American people, consent to the billions of dollars of annual expenditure from your treasury for this military misadventure.

Noble Americans,

You have heard that the US administration is kidnapping its presumed opponents from across the globe and arbitrarily holding them without trial or any international supervision in horrendous prisons that it has established in various parts of the world. God knows who these detainees actually are, and what terrible fate awaits them.

You have certainly heard the sad stories of the Guantanamo and Abu-Ghraib prisons. The US administration attempts to justify them through its proclaimed "war on terror." But every one knows that such behavior, in fact, offends global public opinion, exacerbates resentment and thereby spreads terrorism, and tarnishes the US image and its credibility among nations.

The US administration's illegal and immoral behavior is not even confined to outside its borders. You are witnessing daily that under the pretext of "the war on terror," civil liberties in the United States are being increasingly curtailed. Even the privacy of individuals is fast losing its meaning. Judicial due process and fundamental rights are trampled upon. Private phones are tapped, suspects are arbitrarily arrested, sometimes beaten in the streets, or even shot to death.

I have no doubt that the American people do not approve of this behavior and indeed deplore it.

The US administration does not accept accountability before any organization, institution or council. The US administration has undermined the credibility of international organizations, particularly the United Nations and its Security Council. But, I do not intend to address all the challenges and calamities in this message.

The legitimacy, power and influence of a government do not emanate from its arsenals of tanks, fighter aircrafts, missiles or nuclear weapons. Legitimacy and influence reside in sound logic, quest for justice and compassion and empathy for all humanity. The global position of the United States is in all probability weakened because the administration has continued to resort to force, to conceal the truth, and to mislead the American people about its policies and practices.

Undoubtedly, the American people are not satisfied with this behavior and they showed their discontent in the recent elections. I hope that in the wake of the mid-term elections, the administration of President Bush will have heard and will heed the message of the American people.

My questions are the following:

Is there not a better approach to governance?

Is it not possible to put wealth and power in the service of peace, stability, prosperity and the happiness of all peoples through a commitment to justice and respect for the rights of all nations, instead of aggression and war?

We all condemn terrorism, because its victims are the innocent.

But, can terrorism be contained and eradicated through war, destruction and the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

If that were possible, then why has the problem not been resolved?

The sad experience of invading Iraq is before us all.

What has blind support for the Zionists by the US administration brought for the American people? It is regrettable that for the US administration, the interests of these occupiers supersedes the interests of the American people and of the other nations of the world.

What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the banking, financial, cultural and media sectors?

I recommend that in a demonstration of respect for the American people and for humanity, the right of Palestinians to live in their own homeland should be recognized so that millions of Palestinian refugees can return to their homes and the future of all of Palestine and its form of government be determined in a referendum. This will benefit everyone.

Now that Iraq has a Constitution and an independent Assembly and Government, would it not be more beneficial to bring the US officers and soldiers home, and to spend the astronomical US military expenditures in Iraq for the welfare and prosperity of the American people? As you know very well, many victims of Katrina continue to suffer, and countless Americans continue to live in poverty and homelessness.

I'd also like to say a word to the winners of the recent elections in the US:

The United States has had many administrations; some who have left a positive legacy, and others that are neither remembered fondly by the American people nor by other nations.

Now that you control an important branch of the US Government, you will also be held to account by the people and by history.

If the US Government meets the current domestic and external challenges with an approach based on truth and Justice, it can remedy some of the past afflictions and alleviate some of the global resentment and hatred of America. But if the approach remains the same, it would not be unexpected that the American people would similarly reject the new electoral winners, although the recent elections, rather than reflecting a victory, in reality point to the failure of the current administration's policies. These issues had been extensively dealt with in my letter to President Bush earlier this year.

To sum up:

It is possible to govern based on an approach that is distinctly different from one of coercion, force and injustice.

It is possible to sincerely serve and promote common human values, and honesty and compassion.

It is possible to provide welfare and prosperity without tension, threats, imposition or war.

It is possible to lead the world towards the aspired perfection by adhering to unity, monotheism, morality and spirituality and drawing upon the teachings of the Divine Prophets.

Then, the American people, who are God-fearing and followers of Divine religions, will overcome every difficulty.

What I stated represents some of my anxieties and concerns.

I am confident that you, the American people, will play an instrumental role in the establishment of justice and spirituality throughout the world. The promises of the Almighty and His prophets will certainly be realized, Justice and Truth will prevail and all nations will live a true life in a climate replete with love, compassion and fraternity.

The US governing establishment, the authorities and the powerful should not choose irreversible paths. As all prophets have taught us, injustice and transgression will eventually bring about decline and demise. Today, the path of return to faith and spirituality is open and unimpeded.

We should all heed the Divine Word of the Holy Qur'an:

"But those who repent, have faith and do good may receive Salvation. Your Lord, alone, creates and chooses as He will, and others have no part in His choice; Glorified is God and Exalted above any partners they ascribe to Him." (28:67-68)

I pray to the Almighty to bless the Iranian and American nations and indeed all nations of the world with dignity and success.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

President of the Islamic Republic of Iran

29 November 2006

[Wolf DeVoon]

Dear President Im-a-dinner-jacket,

Thanks for the swell letter. I see you're a Pragmatist. So are most Americans, so we have that as a basis of dialogue. Gee... where to start?

Item: Americans are mostly liars. We don't really believe in God. We pretend to, because it's politically expedient. So, you're sort of on your own there with obedience to Allah and prayer and whatnot.

About the Gulf and Iraq: Um... this is embarrassing. We want the oil and we mean to take it. Our domestic fields are played out, except for offshore California and Alaska, and most Americans don't feel inclined to mess up the scenery with pipes and pumps that make noise. Which brings us to the bottom line.

Americans live in the 21st and 22nd centuries, sending probes to Mars and beyond. We built New York's skyscrapers and taught you folks the rudiments of aviation and nuclear power. I know you had help from the Russians, Pakis, Chinese, and Koreans. But they learned everything from Americans.

When Osama's commandos crashed into the World Trade Center, it was a barbarian's rage against the skyscraper, against man's rationality and rejection of the supernatural. No one prayed for skyscrapers to be erected. Lots of folks opposed it, stuck their hands out for bribes, demanded infrastructure improvements and a piece of the financial action. No one prayed for skyscrapers NOT to be erected, either. Americans do not pray when they buy, sell, trade, discount, scalp, calculate, build, and rent commercial office space.

I think that covers everything. You live in the 8th century. We don't.

Have a nice day.

[Brant Gaede]

Michael, considering everything I'm giving you a get-out-of-jail-free card, but in future if I say something, especially about you, you take offense to, please tell me about it then so we can talk it out instead of me continuing on more and more offending you.

But getting grossly lumped in with Bob and his "solutions" and general attitude to them complete with photos of civilians in Iran massing in demonstration (my purported future victims) is more than I can digest. Therefore my participation in this thread is over.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

I'll be starting a new thread centered on US foreign policy, Israel and the Middle East sometime this week and all interested--you too Michael--can continue this discussion there if they wish. I'd do it right now, but the stock market is jittery and I want to make some money.

--Brant

Edited August 6, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... in future if I say something, especially about you, you take offense to, please tell me about it then so we can talk it out instead of me continuing on more and more offending you.

Brant,

Fair enough. Sorry for the bad vibes.

Michael